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No, of course you don't get to clear the kill-zone. That's why kill-zone sniping will not be as effective. But the point of kill-zone sniping, its essence if you will, it to minimize attacking from the defending unit, which is done by carefully positioning your assault troops so that the kill-zone is as small as possible.

In particular, situating this kill-zone far away from any power klaws in the unit increases the likelihood of this tactic working. The way to do this, in 4th and even more so in 5th, is to take lots of Blast weapons such as Missile Launchers and Whirlwinds to discourage the Orks from gaining the close combat benefits of bunching up, and to take mobile Assault troops that can reach that unprotected 'flank' of the unit - even better if it is a flank or the part of the unit furthest away from your own lines so that if things go pear-shaped in the other player's turn, at least the Pile In moves the Ork unit away from your shooters.

Remember that if five Assault Marines can kill five Orks and have at least one survive, they have won the combat. Ideally you place them so that they kill more Orks than they can lose in their own turn, so that if they get wiped out in the next player's turn that player's unit has backtracked 6", and so that your own heavy-hitters can hammer the unit against that anvil in your own next turn.

Just how spread out do you expect those Orks to be? You will rarely see unit spread out perfectly with 2" between every model. Under tabletop conditions, some amount of bunching will happen, whether the Ork player intends it or not. The 6" counter-assault move is usually enough to get most of the unit engaged.

Also, let's not be guilty of the same kind of selective reading Tarval is. If all one intends is to tarpit the Orks for one game turn, then yes, this trick is still perhaps feasible with careful positioning and a not insignificant amount of luck. Tarval's original claim, however, was this:

HTH godly units drags two 60 man ork units into hth and eats threw them in the next few turns.....

So to move the discussion purely to whether or not tarpitting is still possible is shifting the goalposts.

The other huge downside in 5th is that with the 6” counter assault move, doing this actually moves the enemy assault unit TOWARDS you. Which will have its own tactical applications in other situations (like potentially getting them off an objective), but in the context of a counter-assault unit trying to keep assaulters off a shooty army, is actually counterproductive.

I have to agree with tegeus, mabye some of the strategies in this would work on other armies assault troops, but what could live against 60 orks, let alone win combat? Necron monstrous creature, dreadnaughts, and wraithlord if there not harmed by the pk. But those can only tie up one group. Unfortunatley thanks to the new rules I cant think of a way my orks could ever lose to my Tau army now.

Mannahnin:

Are we talking about a Counter-Assault move, as in the Universal Special Rule, or a Pile In move, as per the usual rules?

In terms of using a small elite assault unit to move hordes of enemy assault troops aways from friendly shooting units, it's only counter-productive if you assault from the same direction as the shooters. That's why I pointed that kill-zone sniping is even better even better if the assault is made on a flank or the part of the unit furthest away from your own lines.

If we had been talking about a pile-in move, we would have said "pile-in move." "Counter-assault move" means "counter assault move."

For what it's worth Bell of Lost Souls seems to be confirming that there is no consolidating into fresh units.

It looks like it may be time for me to finally dust off my Tau...

THAT is bad news, and will make for a rather lame overall game...

Alpharius:

How do you figure?

I could be misunderstanding and panicking (high probability!) but if assaulting troops are NOT allowed to consolidate into a fresh unit, won't that just mean that gun-lines will rule the day?

No it will change 5th "Who needs guns? Assault edition" back to "Shooting is still good".

What it means is that one squad of harlequins won't triapse through your whole army. What it means is that pure assault armies will need to have a lot of squads that can simultaneously charge...not just charge piecemeal and rely on an out of phase movement that breaks the UgoIgo game dynamic.

Will this mechanic be open to tactics by shooty armies? Yes, but they are tactics and need to be countered by the enemy.

Shielding an expensive Broadside or Crisis unit from assault with a 60 point unit of Firewarriors is viable, but this balances the problem of non-stop assaults in the current game that never sees any "open ground" which the enemy obviously has to cross.
Its outright lame that those puny guardsmen with lasguns don't get a chance to fire them more than once in a futuristic setting and have to resort to using them as clubs most of the time.

Without this mechanic combined with the new nastiness of CC resolution, shooty armies will never stand a chance against highly mobile assault forces.

It also brings in balance against horde armies (The new black) which is probably what GW mostly had in mind when writing this.

Good points.

And since 5th edition really, really want us to buy lots and lots of models to fill out the troop selections to the max, probably a very good reason for the rule change.

Really, I think this will be pretty similar to 3rd edition's rule where you could shoot at units that were doing a sweeping advance. It certainly didn't ruin the game then and I actually missed having something similar to that rule in 4th edition.

Doctor Thunder wrote:The folks on Warseer who have read through the rulebook have confirmed that in 5th edition you cannot consolidate into a fresh unit after wiping one on or driving it off in HTH combat. Does this make gunline guard viable? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Sigh. It says so much for many IG players that they believe a gunline guard army is not, in fact, viable and that you see "hope" in a new edition of the rules.

Even a misunderstanding of said rules.

IG work fine. It'd be nice if there weren't so many 'this is obviously better than this in 99% of the cases' unit selections but that's the actual Codex itself not the overall game system.

Actually if this rumor is truly future law then it really means careful planning on the part of the assault army player. It is going to mean that you dont want to just wipe through your enemies. It is going to mean you want smaller assault squads that WILL win the day, but only at the end of your opponents assault phase. So I wanna charge you, beat you down to one or two guys in my turn, and then in the following turn, kill off those last two guys so when it comes round to me again I can repeat this process. This will lead to playtesting squads to find out how many models it takes to reliably kill a squad in two turns rather then as fast as possible.... hello mathhammer.

Stelek, such IG players are a vocal minority. Look in the army list forums and you'll see tonnes of gunline lists.

Aztralwolf, this is already a feature in 4th. Competent opponents hardly ever let you sweep into another unit as it is. All this supposed 5th ed change really does is simulate competence in all your opponents.

Interesting how Tarval has stopped posting. Maybe he finally realised we weren't talking about 4th?

I just suffered the new consolidating rules this last weekend on my 1st Appo game. We were giving a go at the rumored 5th ed when, I forgot we were on 5th ed :(, my space clowns wiped out a termie unit to consolidate on a hiding assault squad when my opponent remind me that I could not do that.... my space clowns did not last long after that.
On the other hand I had a laugh when 9 flank march meltas gang banged a Titan on the 2nd turn.

M.

Another interesting tidbit that people are discussing on Warseer (posted by Latro_ towards the bottom of his really long post) is that units that are already engaged at the beginning of the close combat phase can only attack the unit that they started the phase engaged with so if a unit is charged by fresh troops they will only be able to attack the guys they were already fighting. Seems pretty interesting but I can't say how reliable this is as I don't really know who Latro is and whether he tends to be reliable. I just thought I'd put this out there since we're discussing 5th ed. hand to hand changes.

This is BIG if it is true.

This rule seems to be hurting not just the assualty units but the assualty armies, IE non swarming Nids? If I am not reading this right please correct me, as I am somewhat new to 40k, so the 4ed rules are still a work in progress for me let alone trying to see whats coming in 5th. Just seems as tho my non horde Nids list is going to be harder to play then it currently is.

Freaka

Mofreaka, what do you mean by by non-horde/non-swarming nids? Do you mean stealer-heavy? Because Nidzilla is affected by this not at all. (Other things about 5th will hurt them, but not this.)

Cool, that does help in the reassurance department T-C (yes, I was referring to a heavy Stealer list), I have heard some of the other changes that affect Nids overall with rending, and glanceing etc, but this was a recent one.

Freaka

Looks like my prediction of "Shoota Boyz will still be better than Sluggas in 5th" will be coming true in more ways than I thought.

I have to admit that some of these new rules changes are absolutely huge, and this is one of the biggest ones. It may change the game enough where I'd want to play 40k again! Additionally, whoever said that this is a boon to IG armies wasn't kidding; it certainly makes playing gunline IG armies that much easier.

So just thinking about what this could mean for IG, they could seriously be one of the best armies in the game. No one gets more "units" on the table than they do because of how Platoon's work, so they can throw down plenty of bodies spread across more units than anyone else. Other armies can get a large number of models, but not in as many units as IG. This makes having disposable units for the IG player exceptionally easy.

Likewise AV14 Pie Plates just got much better, by far, due to their durability.

I think that not having to worry about consolidating assault units opens up a whole world of possibilities for how IG can play, which is great. I think that they could just beat the piss out of any kind of Ork Horde army that I could throw down on the table, as long as the IG were built right.

One problem I see IG having in the new rules is giving all of their opponants a 4+ cover save by virtue of there being so many IG bodies blocking each other. Then again, since nuzzling up close to your sister squads on either sides is no longer an invitation to be eaten by assault squads, IG might be able to cram a LOT of men into a single line, with only a few units like tanks to sit behind, ameliorating the cover issue.

I have to admit, I am fairly excited for 5th edition.

Actually, I see this as fairly balancing. Assault armies can now run, cutting down the number of turns of shooting by one. This makes sense; running faster at the enemy means they get to shoot you less. But at the same time, after slaughtering everything in your path it sounds reasonable that, some of the time, you find yourself staring at a gun-line.

This will also make layered defense reasonable. Now, you can place units of guard behind other within a small deployment zone and not have the units behind just be chainsword-fodder. It also allows Guardsmen to move onto an objective without having one unit slaughter everyone in the platoon. It was once that a unit needed only to be powerful enough to kill one unit completely, and then that unit could consolidate repeatedly through several units, making powerful combat units worth more because once they got into combat, they never had to worry about shooting again, artificially increasing the power of close-combat units.

Now, it's no longer a case of shooting or assault being "better" or "worse". Both sides have advantages and disadvantages, and perhaps we will see more mixed unit sets. I'm thinking that taking shoota and slugga boyz will be worth it now, one taking full advantage of the ork's hand-to-hand abilities, while the shootaz are used to try to blast away units that could threaten the assaulting force.

Assault gets a lot of advantages now. Attacking rear armour on stationary vehicles, better cover saves, the run rule, these things are giving a big boost to assault. In exchange, shooting armies get this, shooting response, and counter-attack. Shooting does less damage, but carries less risk. Assault can do much more damage, but carries more risk.

I do believe Open-sketchbook has nailed it right on the head. You will need more diverse armies. Units that were rare before might become more useful. You will need a mix of assault and fire support - softening up the units in the area you are going to assault, to cut down on the counter fire your assaulters will face. Movement will be more dynamic - with deep strikers, scouts coming in the sides. Blast templates will be able to sweep large area's of the field. You will be able to build layers of defence, rewarding the more skilled generals, and penalizing the less skilled who rely on their lists to win.
I'm pretty sure I will have to seriously rethink how my Kult of Speed works - my trukks will no longer be able to terrain hop into combat. I'm actually not sure yet what this will do to my army - perhaps it won't work anymore. I guess I'll just have to adapt - play some games, see what works. My dark eldar will be the same. My ravagers won't be as good. Perhaps my 3 talos sitting on the shelf will be much better with run.

Assault armies can now run, cutting down the number of turns of shooting by one.

I see this a lot and it makes me scratch my head. Most assault armies in 4ed do not get faster in 5ed, cause they already have fleet/waagh or use transports. Only jump pack armies like Blood Angels get an appreciable boost if rumors are true.

What is a bit more accurate is that some other assault armies become viable with run (templar, bezerkers, space wolves, etc).

Assault gets a lot of advantages now. Attacking rear armour on stationary vehicles, better cover saves, the run rule, these things are giving a big boost to assault.

I don't see big boosts to assault in that list:
-Hitting rear armor is nice if the tank has lesser rear armor, but the overall power of close combat anti-tank attacks has gone down (not extra attack for 2 ccw for fists, rending nerf, damage table changes). Still a boost but not a major one in my opinion, especially since most assault units are focused on killing troops, not tanks.

-Better and more readily available cover saves is nice but no LOS through area terrain and combats was better for most armies. While some armies can use fodder in 5ed to keep the good stuff alive without terrain, the elite assault armies will rarely be able to hide from shooting. It's a boost for some, a minus for others.

-As stated above, run only helps a few assault armies and those are not the typical assault armies you'll face. Yet another boost for some, not at all for others.

Then figure in the additional negatives that affect all assault armies.
-No more setting up charges to hide in assault for a turn.
-No more (albiet lucky) consolidations into existing units.

And negatives that affect some assault armies (although taken as a whole, all armies are affected by atleast one).
-No more using higher initiative to clear killzones.
-No more extra ccw attack for powerfists.
-Rending nerf.

I'm just not seeing how assault and shooting is all that balanced in 5ed, seeing as how shooty units will have LOS more often and be able to shoot assault units more easily through out the course of a game. The only balancing I can possibly see is how units will grant cover saves to targets.

tegeus-Cromis

Interesting how Tarval has stopped posting. Maybe he finally realised we weren't talking about 4th?

OK we have two units of 30 boys each and a five man assault squad SM with out J-packs. As I move up six inches I place my five men so that only two guys from the group are able to reach out and get a single guy from each unit. I then assault the two units with two guys from my five man units of which you counter assault your six inches. Notice that you are only able to reach up to the single guys that was close enough. Your 30 men from each unit banish my single guy in btb at which I am outnumber a zillion. So I take my leader ship test and pass. I have now trickle assaulted and tied up two units of 30 men. Now am I going to get cleaned up on your turn, ya but I held the line for a turn of which allowed me to banish one of your 30 men units with mass bolter fire. Next turn I will send the other 60 back to your carrying case

What I am saying is that your ruling out the dice gods and thats something you should never do! You also are ruling out odd things that can happen in a game. You also ruling out the fact that a good general will fail to take advantage of tactic of which you have ruled out because of your logic!

Next time your 60 men get tied up in combat, because of five men. Ask the guy your playing if he goes bye the name of Buggus on Dakka Dakka.

tegeus-Cromis --->

Buggus--->

OK we have two units of 30 boys each and a five man assault squad SM with out J-packs. As I move up six inches I place my five men so that only two guys from the group are able to reach out and get a single guy from each unit. I then assault the two units with two guys from my five man units of which you counter assault your six inches. Notice that you are only able to reach up to the single guys that was close enough. Your 30 men from each unit banish my single guy in btb at which I am outnumber a zillion.

Sorry but no. Casualties don't need to come from engaged models any more. The boys strike back and pulverise all your guys. No tie-up for you.