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Ok legoburner showed me my noobness and I apologize! I've fixed the graphics.

Here is a picture heavy deep strike defense I outlined here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212364.page

How to beat the deep strike defense I outlined here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212373.page

Here are pictures of a successful deep strike defense, and of a failed deep strike defense.

This is my old Slaanesh army versus my Legion of the Damned drop pod army.

Comments ABOVE each pic.

Army setup. 3 pics, different angles. Yeah I know that one Raptor is outta place, I fixed it later.







These are pics demonstrating the 'safety' of the units buried behind the Noise Marines.

Specifically the Predator cannot be melta'd and the Demon Princes cannot be brought down with light weapons fire (outside of rapid fire range).







Here are pictures showing about where you'd want to drop in response. You cannot realistically drop closer to the edge, as if you go off the edge you are 'dead'.







Here is the 'spot' where a drop pod army will be able to come in without real risk of running off the board.

Note that about half of it is on the other side of the terrain piece.



Drop completed. 3 of 5 scattered, not badly but not exactly optimal.





Some up close top down views of the dropped units.





Here are the units circled so you can clearly make everything out (mostly lol).



Here is an illustration showing what units you are going to fire at.

I edited it to make it clearer.



I think this illustrates how the Deep Strike Defense works.

Now on to a failure of deep strike defense.

Spread out in a battle line.





The minimum drop distance needs are satisfied:



As above, the 'spot' where drop pods want to come in.



Here a conundrum and a bit of tactical advice--the 2nd drop pod from the dread is landing. Where I put it, it can NOT scatter badly.



Where is actually scattered:



Placing my marines so the other part of his army cannot get any shots off...



And, the failure. You'll note I'm not fighting his 2nd Demon Prince, his 2nd predator, or either squad of Noise Marines deployed in the center and left.

I am, however, focusing my firepower on his 1st demon prince, 1st predator, 3rd Noise Marine squad, and his only mobile unit the Raptors.



I hope this is enlightening.

Please post PICTURES with a rebuttal, else when I write an article I sadly won't include said rebuttal.

Yes, that means make the effort I did. Not asking too much.

Oh and I have a 20$ bet the krew will insult me at least 10 times in the next week in this thread alone.

I had to say it in order to collect.

So don't let me down!

I'll take that bet if you accept paypal.

I REALLY like the way you placed the 3rd drop pod between the others/troops so as any scatter is benificial.

I will post some pics today hopefully, of my Dp's and how I usually deploy.

Thanks for the great pics and advice, Stelek!

lol no way grizgrin.

Thanks Akira, and you're welcome. I've noticed alot of drop pod players do not do block in their drop pod deployment zone and scatter unnecessarily.

Would you mind resizing the pics? When I have a 1680x1040 screen, and one pic takes up the whole screen...

And here's the thing you never seemed to get. I never said that it was a bad option...just that there were better ones.

Here's the thing you never seemed to get...the 'better ones' you list don't impress me as anything but subpar.

I'm not sure how to resize them but I'll try. Sorry only way to resize them is to resize them on my machine and reload them entirely.

Uhh not gonna do that, sorry. Maybe legoburner or yak know how to do it, I don't see how to force the images to be a certain size on Dakka.

21" monitor ftw!

No love for paypal, eh? Name your option. Credit or purchase from online venue of your choice? Suggest an alternative for me to pay up that you like. C'mon, between me and whomever you made the bet with in the first place you stand to pull in $40.00 USD from this.

lol no no *I* made the bet. You can't take my bet!

When you post them as an article, you can always have
the display resize using the image tags.

[image name on wiki|800px] Would resize the image to
800px on display and a reader can click on it to see the
full file.

Otherwise, people can use programs like photoshop or
fireworks to resize photos. They do a really good job at
optimizing file sizes for web viewing.

Oh I coulda done that first, but I didn't realize I couldn't crop the images to a preset size. Most forums do that automagically on request.

Stelek. You suck.



Do I win a prize now?



BYE

Yes sir, you do!

How's this?



I don't know if I'm Vader or Cookie Monster.

Can I be both?

Right, before you get upset Stelek, understand that all my models except for 10 tactical marines, a Rhino and 5 assault marines are currently back home in the states and I'm in Korea. So I had to improvise to get a picture together.



This defense presupposes a tactical situation that requires you to use the center of the board. Either the mission requires you to defend an objective, like sabotage, or push into the enemy's deployment zone (like Recon) or perhaps the best terrain to defend from is located centrally and the edges are more barren. The four infantry squads (representing troops) form the edges of the box, while your more valuable units (in this case two tanks and an airborne squad representing a fast attack unit) are protected in the center. The two back squads form a protective screen from 90 degrees to 270 degrees (with 0 degrees being the top center of the box). The units are deployed close enough that all their firepower can be brought to bear at any corner of the box and the box itself can move forward as a formation, with the bottom troop choices forming a moving screen to protect against deepstrikers landing behind you. Note that the left and right troop choices are deployed close enough that any deepstrikers landing nearby can be moved on and rapid fired. This defense relies less on area denial, and more on concentrating effects. The idea is to be able to destroy enemy detachments piecemeal as they land to prevent the enemy from massing his forces effectively against any one side of the box.

Take care,
Mike

There's nothing wrong with that concept, Mike.

Not every army can do that, and if you leave yourself in this formation then most drop pod armies can still focus fire at what they want to.

Demon armies are CC monsters, so you setting up in such a way they can surround you on 3 sides instead of 2 prevents you from locking them out of your shooting elements deeper inside the box with selective assaults.

Stelek wrote:I'm not sure how to resize them but I'll try. Sorry only way to resize them is to resize them on my machine and reload them entirely.

Uhh not gonna do that, sorry. Maybe legoburner or yak know how to do it, I don't see how to force the images to be a certain size on Dakka.

21" monitor ftw!

While large monitors are all the rage on desktops, many users are using notebooks these days (myself included) - and 1680x1050 is a fairly average resolution to be running at on a mobile. While this thread has its merits, having to scroll a lot to see the transition between images takes a lot away from your post...

Well, legoburner says the forum software will come out of the dark ages soon. And malfred says I can fix it in an article.

So, I'll make it an article.

I fixed it so it's inline now and readable.

I'll work on article when (ok if) anything else gets added so I can include it.

That Defense Is weak.

How many points was the game? and did you beat your self.??

If it was *Drop Guard the CSM would have eaten it.*(or a better Marine Army)

And what where the Marines armed with ? ? and what was the misson ?

All the Variables where never taken into account.

The Problem also is advancing to the Objective that means more room to surround you.

&You'd have to turtle to get the results you want.

Did all the Drop Pods Hit dead on btw ? Or just amazing Scatter ?

But your attack with the Drop pods was text book.
& I do kinda like the Ghost Marines.

for those of you who want to resize, crop or otherwise edit images: www.snipshot.com

ghostmaker,

You have to understand the difference between the conceptual framework and the actual situation. What Stelek and I posted are essentially templates for how to set up a defense. The situational variables you describe are used to modify the original template to best fit the current situation and use it to your advantage. Stelek's is a good example for when you are able to position in a corner and deny area. Mine, I believe, is a good example for when you cannot occupy a corner because of other considerdations. Neither one is meant useful without modification. It is up to the individual player to modify for best use in the situation dictated by terrain and enemy that he faces.

Take care,
Mike K.

Mike...

Thank you, Stelek.

Because you've essentially made my point. That a castling defense is flawed if the Deep Strike player has an ounce of good tactical sense and a minimum of favorable terrain.

I don't think I mentioned it before, but my biggest problem with castling to defend against Deep Strike isn't its situational efficacy. If the opponent tries to attack against a broad front, the castle defense is nearly inpenetrable.

The biggest problem I have is that castling makes the deep strikers Most Dangerous Course of Action MDCA (to use the military terms) blisteringly obvious, assuming you have a smart opponent. A smart deep strike player will concentrate against one portion of the castle, crippling/destroying that portion, and then proceed to mop up as the game goes on. Essentially, you're gambling that:

1) your opponent is a moron
and/or
2) Your opponent has bad deep strike rolls
and/or
3) Your opponent can't run away effectively

If it works, the castle is golden (and easy to accomplish). The greatest flaw is that if your castle doesn't work (because either your opponent isn't a moron and/or he has good deep strike rolls and/or he can run away, placing enough units in position to do the maximum damage or preserving the ability to seize objectives in the late game), you're left with a situation where your force collapses rapidly. Game over.

With a dispersed defense (Thanks for the term, Sgt. Scruffy), you essentially sacrifice some units to gain an advantage in the later turns of the game.

If I have time (to be honest, not likely with my job) I'll try to draw up some Panzer-leader style diagrams to illustrate what I mean.

Yes, a dispersed defense requires an army build that has some fairly specific characteristics:

1) it needs to be relatively mobile. A unit or two that needs to remain stationary is okay, but if most of your army suffers massive loss to its offensive capability by moving, a dispersed defense is not going to work. "Relatively mobile" means "more mobile than your opponent."

2) It needs to have relatively large threat radii on the majority of its units. By relatively large, I mean that the threat radii needs to be larger than its opponent. Thankfully, with Deep Strike Armies, they generally (with the exception of Lysanderwing and certain Daemon builds) have small threat radii, or at least a reduced threat radii at long range. A SM Drop Pod squad with 2 plasma guns has a theoretical threat radius that reaches 24", but in reality, the squad is only dangerous within 12". An assault-focused squad with fleet has a sufficiently larger threat radius to game an advantage.

3) It needs to avoid having any point failure source type units in the army, or if it does have such units, those units need to be extremely resiliant. We're talking Monolith, Smoked Land Raider, fortuned Eldravatar or some other similar, extremely tough unit or unit combo.

If your army fulfills those conditions, a dispersed defense is far superior to a castle defense, because it preserves your army's ability to generate opportunities in the later turns of the game. If you lose 1/3 of your army on the initial drop, its no big deal, because you can rapidly consolidate your forces and essentially wipe out the enemy's initial force. 1/3 of your force for 1/2 of your oppoenents gives you the advantage.

By the way...I think PanzerLeader's "mobile castle" is spot-on. For armies with vulnerable yet critical units, that's the general formation used by the players I face locally, especially isince most of the games we play are objective-based missions that require the player to move, seize, and hold objectives. Static armies are fairly rare in my neck of the woods, with the exception of one player's IG SAFH... (more lascannons than some Marine armies have models).

Like many locales, the local metagame went through phases. The first was the Lysanderbomb. It crushed regularly, until people figured out that castling was exactly the wrong thing to do. Lysanderbomb is/was an extemely strong list, but its main weakness involved an inability to sustain casualties, and a vulnerability to fast-moving assault units with the capability to ignore the 2+ save in close combat while striking at a higher initiative. Lysanderbomb made its way for drop pod armies (most of which were coffee cups borrowed fromt he store's coffee machine. which did really well for a while, until people figured out that the slowness of the Drop Pod Army once it hit the ground was its greatest weakness, making it difficult for a Drop Pod army to seize objectives in the later turns of the game if an opponent could survive the initial drop.

No pictures.

Sigh.

Side note: I'd like to comment there has never been a point where a specific army build, new or not, crushed me.

Pictures please. Don't diagram, take some pictures. It took me 30 minutes to get all of those down. Make the effort and contribute more than just a theory. Hell I've been very busy but I managed to do this.

Most of what you've said will just lead us in circles, btw. I don't believe any of it, and I've taken just about every deep strike army that exists to the GT's and done well because not ONE guy out of TWENTY used a deep strike defense. You can claim it was something else, but not having a proper defense in the first place enabled me to win handily.

So pictures please. I can't grasp what you are saying because it ends up poorly on MY table using YOUR tactics. We need pictures.

PICTURES!!!!!! Please!

Great post, Stelek, and good advice from all parties. Your various defenses work for different armies.

As an Eldar player, only doing what PanzerLeader describes has ever kept Pod armies from messing me up- and it always requires a sacrifice. I use Dire Avengers with SS/PW a lot, and find them to make a good bait unit. With Fortune, they even survive quite a bit of rapid firing- and with Eldrad around whenever I run an infantry army, at least 2 units are pretty well protected. They become the sticky anvil or the unfortunate sacrifice, depending upon how lucky they are in the opponent's turn.

Deep Strike defense with Mech (when one has to seize an objective rather than back up to the table edge) is much harder than doing it right with infantry (or so it seems to me), and I've never done it well (ie not gotten my tanks popped by IG droppers). Can anyone offer army-specific advice there?

Which mech?

I think with Eldar, you should be able to keep the good stuff far enough away the IG can't drop you.

With Tau, if you are using Devilfish I think you're asking for trouble--and they have a hell of a time getting anything mech across the board, but kroot do the spot for you.

If it's marines of any kind, I think mech can survive IG drops just by castling behind the rhinos for the first couple of turns and weathering the storm. With run, you can do this and still get across the board.

But I think you are talking Guard vs Guard? Personally I'd say if you are running a horde of AV12 tanks in 5th edition, given how much more survivable tanks generally are...if you move forward on turn 1 in a big block, but keep your MBT's in the middle of the transports I think you'll stand a good chance of getting there safely. Alot more than you do in 4th, where vehicles are easily destroyed. I think if you include a few deep strike units in a mech guard army and have improved comms, you can put off a single units drop till turn 3 or 4 and try to get a denial in with said unit on a crucial objective....

Centurian99 wrote:
The biggest problem I have is that castling makes the deep strikers Most Dangerous Course of Action MDCA (to use the military terms) blisteringly obvious, assuming you have a smart opponent. A smart deep strike player will concentrate against one portion of the castle, crippling/destroying that portion, and then proceed to mop up as the game goes on. Essentially, you're gambling that:

What do you mean "1 portion of the castle"?

In this picture, which portion would the dropper obliterate, and how would this cripple the defender?

Well there is a weak spot. and like i said the points aren't taken into account.

If the Drop Army deployed to one side and over took it it could've worked. Like in the Last Picture on stelek's beginning comments. He could've over ran the flank. and put one squad to the other side(bait) and not having basic Marine load outs vs. Uber CSM. Did they have Missle ,Flamer as well?

I do think the Marine Player is under points. and you can say that doesnt matter but it does.


"This is my old Slaanesh army versus my Legion of the Damned drop pod army."

Doesnt look to old looks like 2 Lash Princes to me.

So these are your tier one armys? JW

I don't have tier 1 armies. I have armies. Edit: Both of these armies are 1750 points.

The army is old(er). All that extra armor and demonic possession on the predators is pretty meaningless now.

The lash princes are part of the new CSM army I'm running.

Half the marine army is off the board. It seems unfair to allow a drop pod army to drop everything all at once. There are 2 more dreads and 3 more tactical squads to drop.

Against the castle I've done all I can. I hope to inflict mass casaulties on the red NM squad by firing 2 tactical squads at it. I want to reduce the damage back from the white and blue NM squads by firing units at those units. I also will fire the TL las dread at the predator with a side shot, hoping to knock it out. Then I am probably going to get shot and assaulted, and my 2nd wave of drop pods is going to have little to shoot at.

That's how you defend successfully, by taking the first strike then removing the second one.

"It seems Unfair" What the Hell? Ok thats the game. A whole Drop Army can come on in turn 2. *missing Variables like i said.

K If the Whole army was placed on one flank it could've killed more and held more.

You dont run Tier 1 armies ok ......Like Tri Falcon..What ever nvm

But that Variable you left out is a big one just a bit.

And what did the Tactial Marines have ?

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
The biggest problem I have is that castling makes the deep strikers Most Dangerous Course of Action MDCA (to use the military terms) blisteringly obvious, assuming you have a smart opponent. A smart deep strike player will concentrate against one portion of the castle, crippling/destroying that portion, and then proceed to mop up as the game goes on. Essentially, you're gambling that:

What do you mean "1 portion of the castle"?

In this picture, which portion would the dropper obliterate, and how would this cripple the defender?

That picture is an example of the Deep Strike player being a moron. You want to clump the pods so that you're concentrating fire on one side of the castle, with maybe a unit or two on the other side to act as a speed bump.