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 Aaranis wrote:
Edited my post to include the Kastelan Robots as well.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I actually disagree about the arc rifles on the vanguard. Arc rifles are 24'' rapid fire, meaning you're having to get closer. Rangers are better for hanging out back, as you said, because of their longer range. Vanguard are generally going to be closer, and have an easier time using them.

Also, if I take a plasma caviler in the vanguard squad, I'll always take an omnispex. Shoving that cover save from a 4+ to a 5+ against my plasma is always nice, especially if I can get it to a 6+ with some lumagen support.

I agree with you, I think Arc Rifles are great with both units. You'll always be closer with Vanguards but I just think they're safer in the hidden Ranger squads, because my Vanguards die a lot. Also, having even more Radium shots is seducing, and forces you to shoot at non-vehicles. Having 7 or 8 guys not firing at something because the Arc Rifles fired at a vehicle is still 21 or 24 shots "lost" in my opinion. But both options are viable I believe.

Even against infantry the arc rifle is pretty much a guaranteed 5 wounds or so on MEQ, and does provide to the weight of fire. It also makes them able to take on any threat, even if you "Waste" 21 rad shots. often times I find the trade off worth it, but it is highly situational.

I would think that if you were going to take anti-armor specialist weapons, it would be better to field the units in groups of 5 so you're getting more special-fire per wasted normal fire.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

Even against infantry the arc rifle is pretty much a guaranteed 5 wounds or so on MEQ, and does provide to the weight of fire. It also makes them able to take on any threat, even if you "Waste" 21 rad shots. often times I find the trade off worth it, but it is highly situational.

Yeah you're right, it's still AP5 like the Radium Carbines. Beyond 12" they're pretty equal to the Carbines I feel, and better under 13" due to the rapid fire.

I'm just reassuring myself for not having mounted any Arc Rifles in my Vanguards yet

Also, I'm thinking about building a 10 man squad with the Alpha equipped with Arc Pistol + Arc Maul, and two or three Arc Rifles. Is that a nice idea ? I'd run them along a 5 man Arquebii squad, a 5 man bare bones Ranger squad, and a 10 man Vanguard squad with one Plasma Caliver. They'd assure me the anti-armour duty pretty well but I'm not sure about the Maul, I don't think I'll charge a vehicle that often. Still mounted him like that because rule of cool Would be a good idea ?

I don't even bother putting melee weapons on my sktiarii troops. They're pretty squishy, and any weapon you put on them isn't going to help them much. Maybe it'll get a kill or two, but I just plan on keeping these guys out of combat as much as possible.

Also, I'm still on the fence about the transarq. It has the same issue of "wasting" shots as we discussed by putting arc rifles on vanguard. However, this is so much more expensive and much less reliable. The appeal of a armorbane sniper rifle is nice, but honestly you'll be hard pressed to glance anything other than transports. Plus, with their range, they have much more target options than vanguard usually will. I have a couple of them but I still need to do more field testing to find out.

The Transarq really only makes sense on Rangers.

TransArq costs 25 points and removes a free Galvanic Rifle.

Compare:

1 Ranger with a TransArq generates 1 Str 4 Ap3 Armorbane Sniper shot (4+ to kill a MEQ out of cover in best cast scenario)

3 Rangers with Galvanic rifles gets you 3-6 Str 4 shots, but on 3 wounds.

The 2 extra bodies beats the TransArq every time. Only in a WarConvocation could the stupid TransArq make sense, and then only because you want to hide the unit and take advantage of the 60" range. This is again a huge opportunity cost that sacrifices the rapid fire shots and the much better plasma caliver. When I mathhammer the TransArq even a little bit ... it comes up as total failure.

You'd be surprised, I run this double Arquebus squad with an Omnispex and the Scryerskull Perspicatus. I usually deploy them in an elevated position in a corner of my side of the table, so that I can have the sides of the vehicles. Well with the ability to reroll failed glances and reroll glances to have penetrating hits, I immobilised or finished off a lot of vehicles in a few games. When I play 1000 pts I run them in the Dominus Maniple along a Neutron Laser Dunecrawler, so that I can reroll failed hits should I have any.

Of course it requires a fair deal of synergy and the use of a 20 pts relic, but I always allowed me to destroy an enemy vehicle from my turn 1 by just using the squad and the Dunecrawler. I still have my double Arc Rifles squad somewhere in the field to finish it off if I need.

I've played a few games with just skitarii recently and even then I really struggle to find a use for arc rifles beyond one squad. They just don't compare in my opinion to the plasma calivers so I've been only running one squad of rangers in the backfield with them for drop pods/leviathans which are common where I play

Drahken_40k wrote:
I've played a few games with just skitarii recently and even then I really struggle to find a use for arc rifles beyond one squad. They just don't compare in my opinion to the plasma calivers so I've been only running one squad of rangers in the backfield with them for drop pods/leviathans which are common where I play

Thing is, one plasma Caliver is worth two Arc Rifles in cost, and it has a reduced range. I'd say its function is different, the Plasma is meant to deal with 2+ enemies, and I think they're best equipped with Vanguard as they are the same range. Arc Rifles are powerful, but are really meant to be dedicated to anti-armour. I think if you want to include one, make it two in a 5 man squad. At 12" you can fire 4 Haywire shots and potentially destroy any vehicle pretty easily.

As for the placement, well it's up to what army you're facing. I try to place them in ruins with Scout so they can fire at least one shot each at their first turn, but if you're expecting drop pods yeah they're your best bet to destroy them in once turn. Or the Dreadnought that comes out of it.

 Aaranis wrote:

Drahken_40k wrote:
I've played a few games with just skitarii recently and even then I really struggle to find a use for arc rifles beyond one squad. They just don't compare in my opinion to the plasma calivers so I've been only running one squad of rangers in the backfield with them for drop pods/leviathans which are common where I play

Thing is, one plasma Caliver is worth two Arc Rifles in cost, and it has a reduced range. I'd say its function is different, the Plasma is meant to deal with 2+ enemies, and I think they're best equipped with Vanguard as they are the same range. Arc Rifles are powerful, but are really meant to be dedicated to anti-armour. I think if you want to include one, make it two in a 5 man squad. At 12" you can fire 4 Haywire shots and potentially destroy any vehicle pretty easily.

As for the placement, well it's up to what army you're facing. I try to place them in ruins with Scout so they can fire at least one shot each at their first turn, but if you're expecting drop pods yeah they're your best bet to destroy them in once turn. Or the Dreadnought that comes out of it.

That might actually be a better idea. Have arc rifles in one squad, plasma in another. Until now I had 2 arc and 1 plasma in a vanguard squad (mostly because I only have 1 vanguard squad. I've only been playing admech for about 3 months.) It makes them more specialized while still giving you both options. And definitely take the omnispex in the plasma squad. In the arc squad, you can probably leave it at home.

Writing summaries now. Dakka seems to be bugged, won't let me update OP without "Page did not send data" errors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, it won't let me edit posts or make new threads. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whenever I go to edit a post or create a new thread, and click submit, I get the Google Chrome error screen with the following error:
This is unfortunate, because I like to edit my posts at least four times as soon as I post them.


"This page isn’t working

www.dakkadakka.com didn’t send any data.
ERR_EMPTY_RESPONSE"

 Verviedi wrote:
Writing summaries now. Dakka seems to be bugged, won't let me update OP without "Page did not send data" errors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, it won't let me edit posts or make new threads. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whenever I go to edit a post or create a new thread, and click submit, I get the Google Chrome error screen with the following error:
This is unfortunate, because I like to edit my posts at least four times as soon as I post them.


"This page isn’t working

www.dakkadakka.com didn’t send any data.
ERR_EMPTY_RESPONSE"

sounds like you didnt please the machine spirit with the blessed oil and sacred bitcoin.

If anything I'd think it's as vital for the ark rifles for jinking vehicles

Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Oh man do I have some cheese for you. Cawl and his unkillable glory fit in perfect with the skitarii Hoplites from FW. They're 13 points a pop, unit of 10-20, haywire everything, standard skitarii stats. Here's the kicker though, they have a piece of equipment called the Kryopatris Field Generator which states "So long as a unit contains at least 5 models with a Kryopatris Field Generator, all models in the unit may re-roll failed armor saves of 1." Also, if 10+, shooting attacks on the units are at -1 str. Cawl and his 2+ armor becomes Cawl and his 2+ re-rolling armor. He won't die. And in a unit of 10+ models with 5+ invulns, feel free to look out sir that AP2 all day if you want. That unit will be a walking haywire mob.

Unfortunately the FW Secutarri cant be taken in a War Convo

Though the tradeoff is that its still wounding him on a majority toughness 3, which is a waste of his T6

I'll put him with Kataphrons

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Unfortunately the FW Secutarri cant be taken in a War Convo

Though the tradeoff is that its still wounding him on a majority toughness 3, which is a waste of his T6

I'll put him with Kataphrons

But they can be taken in a Skitarii Maniple ! Any Techpriest Dominus will do the trick for the 2++ rerollable, it's just that Cawl gives more bonuses.

As previously said, placing him in a Cohort Cybernetica looks absolutely murderous and a nightmare to deal with. That will cost you a bunch of points though.



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On the same topic, what do you think of Kataphron Breachers as anti-armour units ? The 2 Haywire shots by head at 36" looks appealing, but then I remember it's at BS3 and can only get rerolls for one or two turns with the Canticles, whereas a Skitarii unit will have always minimum BS4. As for the Torsion Cannon, it looked not worth it at first due to range, but I can see it becoming deadly combined with a Scryerskull Perspicatus to reroll failed glances to get pens. 1D3 HP per penetrating hit is interesting, and let's not forget it's AP1 so it may explode your target with good luck. In a unit of three, I'd use 2-3 Heavy Arc Rifles and 0-1 Torsion Cannon, depending on their placement.

That would allow me to maybe drop the Arquebii squad and give less special weaponry to my Skitarii, while still leaving an Arc Rifle or two in a squad. Your thoughts on this ?

OP just got an update. And my Onager's close combat daemon prince kill count is now 2. Blood for the blood god.

Jackal444 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Oh man do I have some cheese for you. Cawl and his unkillable glory fit in perfect with the skitarii Hoplites from FW. They're 13 points a pop, unit of 10-20, haywire everything, standard skitarii stats. Here's the kicker though, they have a piece of equipment called the Kryopatris Field Generator which states "So long as a unit contains at least 5 models with a Kryopatris Field Generator, all models in the unit may re-roll failed armor saves of 1." Also, if 10+, shooting attacks on the units are at -1 str. Cawl and his 2+ armor becomes Cawl and his 2+ re-rolling armor. He won't die. And in a unit of 10+ models with 5+ invulns, feel free to look out sir that AP2 all day if you want. That unit will be a walking haywire mob.

Surely Peltasts make more sense if you're going for brokenness. Peltasts have the same save reroll trick and -1 to strength benefits, but have very useful weapons, whilst Hoplites are perhaps the fourth or fifth best anti-vehicle option Mechanicus have access to, and are a mediocre at best combat horde otherwise.

 Verviedi wrote:
OP just got an update. And my Onager's close combat daemon prince kill count is now 2. Blood for the blood god.

I want the story

Very well. Here's a picture.


I got crushed in this game, by the way.

The Daemon Prince charged my Dunecrawler. Its first rounds of attacks whiffed, doing no damage. The Dunecrawler hit back, hitting on a six, wounding on a four, but the DP passed his invuln. The Infiltrators charged in, and got utterly wrecked by the Bloodcrushers and Daemon Prince attacking them.
The Dunecrawler attacked again.
It hit on a six.
It wounded on a five.
My opponent rolled a one on its invuln.

Instant kill.

This is the second time that specific Daemon Prince has charged the Dunecrawler and gotten instakilled. My Dunecrawler is a badass. Thank you, Cognis Manipulator.

Congrats little Dunecrawler ! Mine smashed an Harlequin character once (don't remember which one), I love to picture the graceful Eldar getting crushed by a radioactive brick with legs.

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Honestly I have no plans on getting or using Cawl. In general I don't like using named characters, nor do I like using characters as hilariously strong as these. Though, if I had to make a tactical analysis for him...

Using him solely as a bullet sponge for servitors seems like a vast waste of points. For his cost alone you could just field another unit of servitors, and get twice the firepower. Sure, he has decent shooting, but he doesn't have 18 grav shots at 48 inch range. Plus, servitors have decent bulk. A T5 W2 model is pretty strong, and if you have Cawl on the board, they probably won't be focusing on your servitors. He wants to get close, so I'd put him with another unit that wants to get close. Surround him with vanguard, I say. He can tank what he needs to and LOS the rest. This makes sure the vanguard unit gets where it needs to be as well as Cawl. Plus, if you charge anything, you're subtracting one toughness while Cawl is fighting them.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Honestly I have no plans on getting or using Cawl. In general I don't like using named characters, nor do I like using characters as hilariously strong as these. Though, if I had to make a tactical analysis for him...

Using him solely as a bullet sponge for servitors seems like a vast waste of points. For his cost alone you could just field another unit of servitors, and get twice the firepower. Sure, he has decent shooting, but he doesn't have 18 grav shots at 48 inch range. Plus, servitors have decent bulk. A T5 W2 model is pretty strong, and if you have Cawl on the board, they probably won't be focusing on your servitors. He wants to get close, so I'd put him with another unit that wants to get close. Surround him with vanguard, I say. He can tank what he needs to and LOS the rest. This makes sure the vanguard unit gets where it needs to be as well as Cawl. Plus, if you charge anything, you're subtracting one toughness while Cawl is fighting them.

48 inch ? Aren't they 30" ?

Yes.

In any way, I don't intend on buying him neither (don't really love the model) but strolling the battlefield by himself could be good too. He'll catch a lot of fire and he doesn't, he'll just get closer to what he wants.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Honestly I have no plans on getting or using Cawl. In general I don't like using named characters, nor do I like using characters as hilariously strong as these. Though, if I had to make a tactical analysis for him...

Using him solely as a bullet sponge for servitors seems like a vast waste of points. For his cost alone you could just field another unit of servitors, and get twice the firepower. Sure, he has decent shooting, but he doesn't have 18 grav shots at 48 inch range. Plus, servitors have decent bulk. A T5 W2 model is pretty strong, and if you have Cawl on the board, they probably won't be focusing on your servitors. He wants to get close, so I'd put him with another unit that wants to get close. Surround him with vanguard, I say. He can tank what he needs to and LOS the rest. This makes sure the vanguard unit gets where it needs to be as well as Cawl. Plus, if you charge anything, you're subtracting one toughness while Cawl is fighting them.

48 inch ? Aren't they 30" ?

Ah, sorry, still new to the codex. Still think my point stands, though.

Haha no problem we can't know it by heart all the time I think I used a 36" range myself for a couple games, I'm not sure.

Holy Molly I have a newfound respect for my 5 Infiltrators now. I faced an Iron Hands list with a triple Vindicator squadron in it, and as I wondered where in Hell I could go with my Infiltrators so they could be useful (there was only like 8-9 non-vehicle models on the field on his side) I found myself close to the Vindicators. So I charged them, rolled... and destroyed two of them. With 5 Infiltrators. With Taser Goads.

As a makeshift anti-armour they look nice indeed with these S6 hits. On the charge they have 21 attacks that hit on 3+, with 6's adding two more hits each. As it's resolved against rear armour most of the time it will be 10 and you only have to roll a few 4+ to destroy one.

The more I play with the same list, the more I get good with what I have. Even managed a victory against a CC Eldar list the other day !

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Cawl is an absolute tank, He can tank full rounds of fire from whole army.

There are few good choices for Cawl

1) Protect Destroyers. He will let those destroyers shoot all day long. -1 Toughness is not too big of a deal

2) Cohort Cybernetica. This unit will not die. Also Robots with Memento-Mortispex is great. And he will be tanking at T7

3) Keep him by himself. I had a few games where there was few big objectives, so he can just camp them and draw a lot of fire. Your opponent won't be able to move him from an objective.

I also like bringing Knight or onagers to walk next to Cawl for buffs.

However, my play group start to consider Cawl to be unfun, so I won't be able to bring him as much as I like in the future :(


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 Aaranis wrote:
Holy Molly I have a newfound respect for my 5 Infiltrators now. I faced an Iron Hands list with a triple Vindicator squadron in it, and as I wondered where in Hell I could go with my Infiltrators so they could be useful (there was only like 8-9 non-vehicle models on the field on his side) I found myself close to the Vindicators. So I charged them, rolled... and destroyed two of them. With 5 Infiltrators. With Taser Goads.

As a makeshift anti-armour they look nice indeed with these S6 hits. On the charge they have 21 attacks that hit on 3+, with 6's adding two more hits each. As it's resolved against rear armour most of the time it will be 10 and you only have to roll a few 4+ to destroy one.

The more I play with the same list, the more I get good with what I have. Even managed a victory against a CC Eldar list the other day !

Do you infiltrate or outflank your Infiltrators mostly? I never had success with them, although it might be because my main opponent is Tau so too many instant kill for them to do anything (Same thing happens with dragoons)