More Space Marine Rumors [Warseer]

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**Boss Salvage**

Another small batch, again from Crusherjoe over on Ultramarine Blues [and Warseer before that]:

I spoke to GW Customer Service rep from the UK this morning who had the Codex in front of him, and picked his noodle a bit. Sounds so odd when they say Good Afternoon and its 7:30 AM here. Got a few tidbits for Iron Hands players:

Master of the Forge:
Current Techmarine stats w BS5 and LD10-100 pts
2+ Sv. no inv.
Servo Harness for free
Large Weapon range options(combi wpns., T-Hammer, etc.)
Can replace Harness w Conversion Beamer(+20pts). The further it is fired the more potent it becomes.
Str. 6 AP4/Blast @ 6" to Str 10 AP 1/Blast at 42" or more
Allows Dreadnoughts to be taken as Heavy Support AND Elites.
Has special rule that allows for one piece of terrain in your Deployment Zone to be given an improved Cover Save by +1 at the atart of the game(fortifications or some-such).

Chaplains are WS 5, BS 4, 3+ sv.
Commanders are WS6, but have limited ranged weapon options.

No Terminator Sgts for Tactical, Assault, Devastator squads. Kind of a bummer, bit I'll live.

Techmarines still have Servitor Retinues(0-4 models), but may leave them as a separate unit. The downside; they only operate on a 4+ if left alone.

The weapon options (free stuff) is correct if taken as a 10 man unit.

You may still have variable squad sizes(6-9), but you get nothing else besides the Sgt n his options. No special n Heavy Weapons.

WS 6 commanders, eh? Thanks GW, my chaos lords feel real special now. Though in reality I'm guessing commanders ARE going to be the chaos lords of their book - as in, not taken

- Salvage

**whitedragon**

Salt grains anyone?

**JohnHwangDD**

Master of the Forge is pretty cool and has *great* conversion (ha!) potential. But again, it's just more ways for SM players to spend more points on Non-Scoring Non-Troops.

Chaplains, I'm sure will be fine.

Commanders? WS6 is nice for the only character likely to be allowed Lightning Claws, but if he doesn't have some uber rule, he's going to lose out.

"No Terminator Sgts" means not Terminator Honors Sergeants? That's a clever trick to emphasize how SM aren't so fighty and does a nice job of differentiating a vanilla sergeant from a BA Veteran Sergeant with +1A.

Interesting that you wouldn't be able to take a Special weapon on a 5-man squad, or even a 6-9 man squad. Clearly GW is using a blunt instrument to "encourage" 10-man Tactical squads.

**Scottywan82**

I'm a bit skeptical about the assertion that you cannot take special OR heavy weapons without having 10 men in a squad. That seems a bit unbelieveable.

**Boss Salvage**

I think the "no terminator sergeants" means no veteran sarges in terminator armor. Ala Iron Hands, and with the death of the armory I can only assume the option is toast.

- Salvage

**avantgarde**

I think he means taking Sgts in Terminator armor, which one of the traits allowed.

Maybe GW got tired of SM players making two troop choices from a single SM Tactical box instead of buying 1 or more like everyone else.

*edit beaten

**Death By Monkeys**

Scottywan82 wrote:I'm a bit skeptical about the assertion that you cannot take special OR heavy weapons without having 10 men in a squad. That seems a bit unbelieveable.

Nah, that's pretty in line with all the other rumors we've heard about the SM Codex so far - and it's also pretty in line with the DA codex and combat squads, too.

Interesting to hear that the C-Beamer will replace the weapons harness.

**ubermosher**

Boss_Salvage wrote:
WS 6 commanders, eh? Thanks GW, my chaos lords feel real special now. Though in reality I'm guessing commanders ARE going to be the chaos lords of their book - as in, not taken

- Salvage

Not surprising actually. It says right in the CSM codex entry for Chaos Lords: "A Chaos Lord might be the commander of a piratical fleet, the Master of a renegade Chapter..." (CSM page 30). If in the minds of GW a Chaos Lord is a Renegade Master, we should have guessed the Loyalist Master would be WS6.

**Tacobake**

I actually concur that I thought that would be what Chaos Lords 'get'. WS6.

BS4 for Chappies? Ok ... Chappy w/ jump pack and plasma pistol is a 3rd ed+ tradition.

but I do appreciate the extra techmarine goodness.

**MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy**

Correct me if I'm wrong but no Vet. Sarge in squads means Assault Marine powerfisters only get 1 attack now? That sucks. Hard.

Dreadnoughts as heavy support is nice.

Chaplain BS4-Err. Okay?

No special weapons for small squads is very stupid.

So Smurfs pay 170 for a 10 man squad w/ ML + flamer while Dark Angels pay 180 for the same squad, but with a vet sarge (+1 attack, higher leadership)

/DA whining.

**Hellfury**

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but no Vet. Sarge in squads means Assault Marine powerfisters only get 1 attack now? That sucks. Hard.

considering how easy it is to smash vehicles in 5th ed, not a big deal really. Besides you still get the assault bonus.

**Salacious Greed**

Well, it is a big deal if they mean Terminator armor, or if they mean Veteran Sergeants.

No terminator armor, no big deal, didn't see many armies like that anyway.

No veteran sergeants? No power fist, no special anything. No real reason to combat squad at that point. I think that would be the death of tac squads.
I know I don't take them for the heavy weapon.

**Ravenous D**

whitedragon wrote:Salt grains anyone?

Honestly after the landspeeder transport, the redeemer, that vanguard veterans can assault on deepstrike, and the legion of the damned was all confirmed after I thought it was far fetched, I wouldnt be surprised if all the rediculous rumours are true.

At this point if they told me marines got choppas and wraithlords I wouldnt be surprised since they are getting everything else under the sun.

**Agamemnon2**

I was even going to restart painting my Marines, but after I saw what they're getting, I recoiled in disgust. That's one bandwagon I want to stay off of, as I believe most people won't.

**JohnHwangDD**

Agamemnon2 wrote:I was even going to restart painting my Marines, but after I saw what they're getting, I recoiled in disgust. That's one bandwagon I want to stay off of, as I believe most people won't.

Meh. I'm still going to redo my Marines, after I rebuild Chaos. The way I see it, SM Troops are forced to build around at least 3 full 10-man Tactical squads. The rest is all window dressing, and either iffy, like WS3 BS3 Scouts, or else limited in access due to strong competition for the 3 Elite slots.

Overall, this feels very much like the recent Eldar Codex, and that isn't necessarily a good thing moving into 5th Edition. I think Chaos can do a lot more interesting things competitively, whereas SM can easily go wrong if they don't take enough full Tactical squads.

**Schepp himself**

JohnHwangDD wrote:Overall, this feels very much like the recent Eldar Codex, and that isn't necessarily a good thing moving into 5th Edition

How comes? I think the Eldar Codex is the best codex. Almost all units are viable and you can build all the Craftworlds with just one list. Perfect, I say.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Agamemnon2**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:I was even going to restart painting my Marines, but after I saw what they're getting, I recoiled in disgust. That's one bandwagon I want to stay off of, as I believe most people won't.

Meh. I'm still going to redo my Marines, after I rebuild Chaos. The way I see it, SM Troops are forced to build around at least 3 full 10-man Tactical squads. The rest is all window dressing, and either iffy, like WS3 BS3 Scouts, or else limited in access due to strong competition for the 3 Elite slots.

I think you might be on to something with that assessment. A SM tactical squad without any options is quite a dull unit, and one that's in considerable trouble in a lot of battlefield situations. OTOH, those 10-man squads will get the combat squads rule, so they might stretch pretty far in some situations.

**Regwon**

easy to build a decent SM list.

Master of the Forge /w Conversion Beamer

3 5man Terminator Squads /w asscannon (or heavy flamers) + Redeemer Transports

2 10man Tac Squads with las/plas (maybe sgt /w fist)

3 Ironclad Dreads /w TL-Lascannon.

master of the forge lets you take dreads (hopefully ironclads) as HS.

dreads, tac squads and MotF provide anti-tank and hold/contest objectives in the DZ. terminators and redeemers kill everything. by my reckoning it will come about 2000pts.

admittedly you only have 26 guys, but its not reasy to kill 3 landraiders, 3 AV13 walkers in cover and 15 terminators.

**migsula**

I'm loving all the rumors. As always - the cheese cries will settle down when we se pt costs and real games for reference

What it looks like, is plenty of SM toys around a very fluffy core! Just what the bobblehead ordered

**Boss Salvage**

ubermosher wrote:
Not surprising actually. It says right in the CSM codex entry for Chaos Lords: "A Chaos Lord might be the commander of a piratical fleet, the Master of a renegade Chapter..." (CSM page 30). If in the minds of GW a Chaos Lord is a Renegade Master, we should have guessed the Loyalist Master would be WS6.

Point. I'm one of those deluded fools who keeps thinking that the majority of CSM are thousands of years old and just generally hard MFers. I await Codex: Chaos Legions where chaos lords are WS7 base.

Tacobake wrote:I actually concur that I thought that would be what Chaos Lords 'get'. WS6.

BS4 for Chappies? Ok ... Chappy w/ jump pack and plasma pistol is a 3rd ed+ tradition.

BS4 chappies, I like. Little less of a twitch buy, but if you want a gun go buy the MotF I guess. And if the lord's WS6 isn't so unique anymore, I've said it elsewhere - the only reason to take a lord is to get a demon weapon. Though wait for "Crusherjoe's Rumors #3" where the SM commander can get a wicked "Archeotech Weapon." I hear it gives you +2D6 attaks and +2S, but if you roll two ones you take a wound (but the iron halo can save it)

JohnHwangDD wrote:Meh. I'm still going to redo my Marines, after I rebuild Chaos. The way I see it, SM Troops are forced to build around at least 3 full 10-man Tactical squads. The rest is all window dressing, and either iffy, like WS3 BS3 Scouts, or else limited in access due to strong competition for the 3 Elite slots.

Good point John, SM really only seem to lack in the Troops department from these rumors, even with all the free weapons stuff. This would have been a small thing in 4th but 5th tips the balance of scoring power over to the spiky boys. Tactical squad, meet the CSM squad, and note how often they get used competitively.

- Salvage

**ubermosher**

Boss_Salvage wrote:I await Codex: Chaos Legions where chaos lords are WS7 base.

Fair enough. And then I'll complain that my Phoenix Lords are no longer special.

**Lowinor**

Boss_Salvage wrote:Good point John, SM really only seem to lack in the Troops department from these rumors, even with all the free weapons stuff. This would have been a small thing in 4th but 5th tips the balance of scoring power over to the spiky boys. Tactical squad, meet the CSM squad, and note how often they get used competitively.

I'm not sure I can really agree that the Tactical Squad is "lacking" -- the Combat Squads rule gives it a lot of versatility for all mission types (deploy as a 1 KP 10-man squad in KP missions, deploy as two scoring units for objective missions), ATSKNF is the best morale option in the game (and that even improved with Combat Tactics), and 15 points(ish) for a T4 3+ is still a good price.

**Boss Salvage**

Mostly I was comparing breadth of Troop options:

Tactical Squad
Scout Squad

vs

Chaos Space Marine Squad
Plague Marines
1000 Sons
Berzerkers
Noise Marines
Lesser Demons

I do agree that combat squads is a very solid thing. Combat Tactics will need to be seen I suppose, as the Voluntary Fallback one is obscenely good, but each one of the special characters apparently replaces it with their own custom one, which have various levels of

- Salvage

**His Master's Voice**

Add two types of Vets, bikes and supposedly Termies as troop choices for SM. Sure, they'll be tied to characters and commanders wargear but they're available

**Death By Monkeys**

Regwon wrote:admittedly you only have 26 guys, but its not reasy to kill 3 landraiders, 3 AV13 walkers in cover and 15 terminators.

Tell that to a Deathwing player...you'd be surprised.

Boss_Salvage wrote:Mostly I was comparing breadth of Troop options:

Tactical Squad
Scout Squad

vs

Chaos Space Marine Squad
Plague Marines
1000 Sons
Berzerkers
Noise Marines
Lesser Demons

I think this is an excellent point, really. And particularly if your options for SM Troops are going to be limited, you'll continue to see SM lists that are heavy on everything but troops.

**Lemartes**

BS4 chappies

There to busy reciting the litany's of hate to properly aim.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Got a few tidbits for Iron Hands players:

Master of the Forge:
Has special rule that allows for one piece of terrain in your Deployment Zone to be given an improved Cover Save by +1 at the atart of the game(fortifications or some-such).

So I guess "Master of the Forge" is just another name for Warsmith, which makes sense. I think this is a great special rule that really reflects the Iron Warriors' expertise at fortification. I mean, if any space marines should get a special rule like this it should be the Iron Warriors - they are the masters of siege warfare afterall.

Oh wait, it says Iron Hands, doesn't it...

**Frazzled**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Got a few tidbits for Iron Hands players:

Master of the Forge:
Has special rule that allows for one piece of terrain in your Deployment Zone to be given an improved Cover Save by +1 at the atart of the game(fortifications or some-such).

So I guess "Master of the Forge" is just another name for Imperial Guard ground pounders, which makes sense. I think this is a great special rule that really reflects the Guards' expertise at fortification. I mean, if anyone should get a special rule like this it should be the Imperial Guard - they are the masters of trench warfare afterall.

Oh wait, it says Iron Hands, doesn't it...

fixed your typo

**Rbb**

Regwon wrote:easy to build a decent SM list.

Master of the Forge /w Conversion Beamer

3 5man Terminator Squads /w asscannon (or heavy flamers) + Redeemer Transports

2 10man Tac Squads with las/plas (maybe sgt /w fist)

3 Ironclad Dreads /w TL-Lascannon.

master of the forge lets you take dreads (hopefully ironclads) as HS.

dreads, tac squads and MotF provide anti-tank and hold/contest objectives in the DZ. terminators and redeemers kill everything. by my reckoning it will come about 2000pts.

admittedly you only have 26 guys, but its not reasy to kill 3 landraiders, 3 AV13 walkers in cover and 15 terminators.

You only have to kill the 20 tacticals. Not hard when they can't hide behind trees anymore.

**JohnHwangDD**

Agreed. For 2000 pts, it's not a very impressive list.