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Just a quick question. Say a tactical marine squad is shooting at me. All armed with bolters, seargent has a storm bolter. If I take 1 wound from a bolter, and one from a storm bolter, can I pile them on the same guy since its different weapons, or do they have to be different str/ap for that to take effect?

Errr... what?

That's not how wound allocation works. Your opponent chooses one of his squads to shoot. He rolls to hit and wound with all the weapons. You then choose who takes the wounds, only overlapping wounds on a model if all the other models have taken the same amount of wounds. For example:

Your opponent has a squad of 10 marines, all have bolters except one is armed with a lascannon, and the Sergeant has a Storm Bolter. He is shooting at a squad of 10 Necrons. He rolls all the bolters and ends up with 12 wounds (say he was rapid firing.) The Sergeant then shoots and gets 2 wounds. The Lascannon shoots and scores a wound.

As the Necron player I've suffered 14 wounds I can save against, and 1 that I cannot (say I'm in the open.) 1 Necron is going to take the un-saveable hit. The other nine will take a saveable hit. That leaves me 5 saveable hits not allocated yet. I'll put one on the Lascannon zapped Warrior, and the other 4 go on the other 9 (doesn't matter who, as they are all equipped the same.) So one Necron lies down, and I make 13 armour saves.

Hope that clears things up!

The way I was told was that if you take wounds from different things, you can take them all on one character if its 1/1. So say your shot at with a lascannon and the bolters. If you take 3 wounds from bolters, and 1 from the lascannon, you can have the lascannon hit one of the ones wounded by the bolters, basically saving an extra guy from a possible death. My question is does it have to be a different strength weapon to alocate this way, or a different weapon type. If its different strength than if you take 4 bolter wounds and 2 storm bolter wounds you have to make saves for 6 different models. If its by weapon type and you take the same amount of wounds, your rolling 4 bolter wounds, and 2 stormbolter wounds on 2 guys that already took bolter wounds. The first example you could have max casualties of 6, the second example max casualties of 4.

So how does it work for same str weapons?

The Str of the weapons are irrelevant. You put one wound on each guy until everyone has one, then you start to put a second wound on each guy till they all have two, then a third, ect.

If all of the guys being shot at are the same, then you roll all the saves at once and every fail is a dead guy.

If you have say a guy with a heavy weapon in there, then you'd roll his saves separate. Extra failed saves do not carry over onto guys with different equipment.

ZOned is right Orock, but you are a bit confused about the rules. It has nothing to do with the strength of the different weapons at all. You assign wounds to the models in the target unit any way you want, as long as each model is wounded before any model takes a second wound.

ah i misread. So if I have 5 marines who are shot, 4 wounds with bolters and 2 with plasma, each guy takes a wound then i can assign both plasma wounds to the same guy? Seems like you would at least get one more save than you normally would.

As the Necron player I've suffered 14 wounds I can save against, and 1 that I cannot (say I'm in the open.) 1 Necron is going to take the un-saveable hit. The other nine will take a saveable hit. That leaves me 5 saveable hits not allocated yet. I'll put one on the Lascannon zapped Warrior, and the other 4 go on the other 9 (doesn't matter who, as they are all equipped the same.) So one Necron lies down, and I make 13 armour saves.

Hope that clears things up!

and

ah i misread. So if I have 5 marines who are shot, 4 wounds with bolters and 2 with plasma, each guy takes a wound then i can assign both plasma wounds to the same guy? Seems like you would at least get one more save than you normally would.

Are both wrong.

The necrons are all the same, so they are treated as one 'set'. (or batch, or group....)
In this case, there is no difference from 4E. They have to 'save' against all 15 shots. One is an autofail, and they roll the other 14. Assuming 6 miss, that means 7 dead warriors.


The same for the marines, they are all the same, so they are treated as one group. So they have to make 6 'saves'. Two saves auto fail, and they roll 4 armor saves. Lets say they make 2, that means 4 die.


Now, lets say those marines were 4 tac marines and 1 sgt. You could put both Plasma hits on the Sgt, since he is 'different'. But then you are sacrificing your sgt.
In that case, the Sgt misses two saves, and the 4 marines need to roll 4 saves.
If you chose to put both plasma shots on one tac marine, it would still get lumped together with the rest of the 4 tac marines.
In that case, the Sgt makes one save, and the 4 marines make 5 'saves'. Two auto fail, and they roll for 3 others.

Orock, do you have a copy of the rule book? The type of weapon shooting has no affect on assigning wounds.

That's right coredump... nice illustration of the wound allocation rules there.

In some cases special models will take a beating when you don't want them too... in other cases they will be able to pull wounds off the main unit as sacrificial lambs to help the other models survive.

For example if you have 5 marines (one has a flamer, one is a Sgt.) on an objective taking shots from 24" away, and are hit with 6 wounds. It could be beneficial to stack the extra wound on your Flamer marine, leaving 3 saves for the regulars and 1 for the Sgt. and potentially allowing your objective to be held by the Marines who are left over. If they lose the Flamer & take more wounds next round, the Sgt. could be the one that soaks up an extra wound to help preserve the unit.

It works quite easilly once you get your mind around it. And offers some interesting play situations.

I did see during our LGS 5th edition game day yesterday a 5 man squad of Blood angels (2 specials & 3 Marines) took 5 wounds and all the specials failed thier save. Yikes! So there certainly is danger in taking lots of wounds when you have special models in a unit.

Zoned wrote:Errr... what?

That's not how wound allocation works. Your opponent chooses one of his squads to shoot. He rolls to hit and wound with all the weapons. You then choose who takes the wounds, only overlapping wounds on a model if all the other models have taken the same amount of wounds. For example:

Your opponent has a squad of 10 marines, all have bolters except one is armed with a lascannon, and the Sergeant has a Storm Bolter. He is shooting at a squad of 10 Necrons. He rolls all the bolters and ends up with 12 wounds (say he was rapid firing.) The Sergeant then shoots and gets 2 wounds. The Lascannon shoots and scores a wound.

As the Necron player I've suffered 14 wounds I can save against, and 1 that I cannot (say I'm in the open.) 1 Necron is going to take the un-saveable hit. The other nine will take a saveable hit. That leaves me 5 saveable hits not allocated yet. I'll put one on the Lascannon zapped Warrior, and the other 4 go on the other 9 (doesn't matter who, as they are all equipped the same.) So one Necron lies down, and I make 13 armour saves.

Hope that clears things up!

so you put a save on a model that you decided to be dead before you made the save. yes their all shooting at the same time but I'd call you on that BS.

wash-away wrote: so you put a save on a model that you decided to be dead before you made the save. yes their all shooting at the same time but I'd call you on that BS.

Admittedly his example was wrong but doing this and doubling up extra hits onto guys who are already instakilled before saving is fine, the thing is, you ONLY do it for complex units with multiple statlines or different gear, and even then the hits are shared by all similar units, so it only does anything if you are sniping a sergeant or heavy weapon or something similar out of the unit.

so if you had 1 unique guy in a 10 man squad, lets say he's a sergeant, and you take 3 lascannon hits and 10 bolter hits you could apply 1 lascannon to the sergeant and 2 to the normal men, then 7 bolters go onto the normal men as well since they all have to have 1 wound before you start overlapping, now being the sneaky powergamer you decide to overlap the remaining 3 bolter hits onto the sergeant and 2 squad members with lascannon hits. However the actual result is the sergeant dies from the lascannon, as do 2 squad members, and you then roll 9 saves for bolter shots (1 was lost to the sergeants death).

I'm not a fan of the rules, I think there was nothing particularly wrong about the old rules although do see how mixed armour could pose a problem, but they aren't too bad.

"Orock, do you have a copy of the rule book? The type of weapon shooting has no affect on assigning wounds. "


Have to disagree with you there, coredump, you can quite legitimately have a squad of 5 identical models, when wounded by 6x bolter and 2x plasma, put both plasma onto one model.

Why? Because you assign wounds BEFORE making armour saves. I spread out the bolter wounds, so 4 models take 1 each. The 5th model takes a plasma wound. I now have three wound still to allocate, which I can chose to place on any model. I therefore place the plasma on the model which has already been hit by plasma. The other 2 bolter wounds go to other models

Now, to armour saves. The model hit twice by plasma dies (he can't get a save). The other 4 each take a save against against the 6 bolters. Because the models are identical, you roll them all as a bunch, hence if 4 out of 6 fail, everyone dies.

Personally I feel that each weapon type should be spread out in it's own step, so like all the lascannons, then all the bolters.

But I will give it to you Chimera that it never says anything like this. It doesn't touch on the subject at all.

Finally somebody explains it right and I don't have to! Thanks, Chimera!

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
Have to disagree with you there, coredump, you can quite legitimately have a squad of 5 identical models, when wounded by 6x bolter and 2x plasma, put both plasma onto one model.

I don't think that is quite right. In the example they gave in the rulebook, you roll for each identical group of models at the same time. So, if you have 5 Marines armed with bolters and they take 5 wounds that can be saved against and 2 that can't, you roll all the dice for these identical models at the same time, and if there are 3 failed saves, then all 5 are dead (3 failed saves, plus the 2 unsavable wounds). Now, if you have 5 marines and one has a flamer, then you can put both unsavable wounds on the flamer and the other wounds on the identical models. If you have 3 failed saves in that case, you would remove 4 models (3 of the identically armed Marines and then the one flamer Marine), leaving one Marine with a bolter.

I think the confusion comes from the order you resolve the various steps.

If you make all the saves before comparing the AP to the targets armour, then the situation you describe is accurate, however, this cannot now be done as 'majority armour' no longer exists.

If you have a unit with mixed armour (like Black Templars or Inquisitor units) then different AP weapons will have different effects.
However, there is no requirement to spread out the low AP weapons so as to kill the greatest number of troops. In fact the contrary is true.
The rules specifically allow you to double up wounds on less important squad members to mitigate the effects of fire. The only requirement to spread out the 'killy' weapons is that you can't double up instant kill wounds.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Finally somebody explains it right and I don't have to! Thanks, Chimera!

Except he got it wrong..............

Mortis has it right..............

You can place multiple plasma wounds on the same model, BUT!! if that model is part of a like group of models, the wounds can and do carry over onto the other members of that like group. The only way to keep the wounds from carrying over is to put them onto a model that is it's own "like group", ie the sgt or the special weapon guy or somesuch.

If I have 2 models left and am hit with 3 wounds, I have to put 1 wound on model and 2 wounds on the other - this is fine.

So if I have marines and am hit with an AP 4 weapon and 2x AP3 weapons, I MUST spread out the AP3 weapons to inflict as many casualties as possible on myself??

Chimera_Calvin wrote:If I have 2 models left and am hit with 3 wounds, I have to put 1 wound on model and 2 wounds on the other - this is fine.

So if I have marines and am hit with an AP 4 weapon and 2x AP3 weapons, I MUST spread out the AP3 weapons to inflict as many casualties as possible on myself??

It depends if the 2 models are identical or not. If they are identical you take all saves together and remove one model per failed save. With MEQs and 1x AP4 and 2x AP3 that's at least two models down. If the models are not identical however, you can spread the wounds out how you like before saves as long as no model get more than one wound more than any other model. Again in your example it would be best to take the two AP3 hits on the same guy and the AP4 hit on the other one.

Diffrent weaponry and equipment makes more survivable squads. Especially for multi wound squads. Expect to see ork nob mobs with 10 diffrently armed nobs.

Yes. No chipmunking AP/death shots unless you actually have another "group" to place them onto, like a sergeant. You can't have one vanilla marine in a squad of vanilla marines bodyblock all the plasma shots.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I think the confusion comes from the order you resolve the various steps.

If you make all the saves before comparing the AP to the targets armour, then the situation you describe is accurate, however, this cannot now be done as 'majority armour' no longer exists.

If you have a unit with mixed armour (like Black Templars or Inquisitor units) then different AP weapons will have different effects.
However, there is no requirement to spread out the low AP weapons so as to kill the greatest number of troops. In fact the contrary is true.
The rules specifically allow you to double up wounds on less important squad members to mitigate the effects of fire. The only requirement to spread out the 'killy' weapons is that you can't double up instant kill wounds.

Huh?

If you have units with mixed armor saves, then you have a Complex Unit unit as described in the rulebook. If you have 10 models in a unit with a 3+ save and 5 guys in the unit with 4+ saves, then you allocate the wounds as you see fit just as you would with a unit with special/heavy weapons and containing a character. It states this first in the 3rd paragraph under "Take Saving Throws" on page 20 and then it elaborates it on page 25.

So let's say you have in the above unit a model with a 3+ save armed with a special weapon and a sargeant with a powerfist. That's a total of 15 models in the unit. Now, let's say you take 20 wounds, with 2 of those wounds coming from a plasma gun. You now have 4 groups of models in which to allocate wounds to. You have one group of 8 models with 3+ saves all armed with bolters, one group of 5 models with 4+ saves armed with bolters, one special weapon armed model, and one powerfist armed sargeant. So now you have decisions to make: do you stack the two plasma wounds on the sargeant or special weapon model, thus only losing one model due to having no save against it, or do you allocate two plasma wounds to the 3+ save models or to the 4+ save models, which means you will lose two models instead of one. Why? Because you aren't rolling for individual models when making saves for the 3+ and 4+ save groups, you are rolling for the whole group of identically armed models. And you make all those saving rolls at one time after allocating the wounds. So, you roll all the saving throws for the 3+ save models. Then you roll all the saves for the 4+ save models. Then you roll the saves for the sargeant. Then the saves for the special weapon model.

Have to disagree with you there, coredump, you can quite legitimately have a squad of 5 identical models, when wounded by 6x bolter and 2x plasma, put both plasma onto one model.

No.
You can't!
I explained it already, please go back and re-read the section. Similar models roll *together* not separately.

Wounds are allocated individually. Saves are rolled by *group*

Please re-read my examples, and then re-read the section.

Now, lets say those marines were 4 tac marines and 1 sgt. You could put both Plasma hits on the Sgt, since he is 'different'. But then you are sacrificing your sgt.
In that case, the Sgt misses two saves, and the 4 marines need to roll 4 saves.
If you chose to put both plasma shots on one tac marine, it would still get lumped together with the rest of the 4 tac marines.
In that case, the Sgt makes one save, and the 4 marines make 5 'saves'. Two auto fail, and they roll for 3 others.

Wounds are allocated individually. Saves are rolled by *group*

however, this cannot now be done as 'majority armour' no longer exists.

Majority armor never existed (at least not in 4E). Each target model always used its own armor save. This system is just an extension of the multiple armour system, extended to include all differences, not just armor) Perhaps reading p.75 in the 4E book will help understand the allocation vs rolling issues.

Finally somebody explains it right and I don't have to! Thanks, Chimera!

Sorry Nurgle, but if you have been explaining that way, you need to re-read that section also.

Mortis has it right..............

Hey.. I said it first...

Apologies to coredump (and anyone I inadvertantly misled...)

I had (wrongly) assumed that wounds which ignored armour led to those models being removed before saves were taken.

The pertinent text is in the third paragraph of the example box 'allocating wounds on complex units' at the bottom of page 25, rather than in the main body of the text (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it ), describing 2 marines armed with bolters being hit with 4x bolter wounds and one 1x AP1 meltagun wound.

"...goes on to roll the four (bold mine) saves for the Space Marines with bolters in one go, failing two. He should remove three models (two unsaved wounds plus one wound with no armour save from the meltagun), but as there are only two models....."

Again, apologies for the f00k up

Yeah, I think alot of the confusion comes from the playtest PDF, which had an example that did allow one to remove one to stack killing wounds onto one basic model. The example in the actual ruleset is a bit better.

I think this is where I got that as well....why the feth did GW change the allocation system!? UGH!

I really need to read the 5th book...I have only skimmed it and am not too excited so far.

Get excited. This is a small part of things and the only "slowdown." Everything else is a speed up, and there are good reasons for this wound allocation system. You have to play the whole ruleset to get it.

On the original topic. Could Poisoned weapons reroll to wound if the wielder had equal or greater str then the victim's toughness in 4th Ed? Or is this new?

Voodoo_Chile wrote:On the original topic. Could Poisoned weapons reroll to wound if the wielder had equal or greater str then the victim's toughness in 4th Ed? Or is this new?

Uh, this is a long way from the original question, Maybe you got the wrong thread? Either way yes this is a new addition in 5th edition

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I think this is where I got that as well....why the feth did GW change the allocation system!? UGH!

I really need to read the 5th book...I have only skimmed it and am not too excited so far.

They probably did it so that we all had to read the 5th edition book.. makes sense no?