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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/04 22:22:36
Subject: The Fallen.
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
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Looking in the most recent Chaos Space Marine Codex will show the ''Unforgiven'' legion, which is clearly the fallen Dark Angels.
So here's a question; does anyone play Fallen? I know the common view is to see them as ''scattered across time and space'', but surely this might not have applied exclusively to induviduals? Taking into account the size of a heresy era chapter, would it not be possible for several thousand Fallen marines to have survived? This gives life to the argument that there are potentially entire warbands of Fallen operating under their own objectives, either in the Eye Of Terror or (a la Alpha Legion) covertly in Imperial space, as well as notorious induviduals such as Cypher.
Before fanatical Dark Angels players/fluff nazi's start bleating, don't take this as a misinterpretation of Dark Angels lore. I really like their background and appreciate the difficulty in tracking down Fallen marines that faces Interrorgator chaplains. I'm sure running into a warband of Fallen marines would make Azrael break out the champagne and party hats.
So, any ideas? Even better, any Fallen players? Let's hear your arguments. This was just a thought I had whilst wasting time at work, so I was naturally inclined to see if it sinks on here.
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I really should be spending my time more constructively. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/04 23:01:18
Subject: The Fallen.
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Battleship Captain
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I can't speak for players here on Dakka, but if you go to the Dark Angels forum over on B&C, there's plenty to talk with - both folks who use the CSM rules as well as the standard DA rules - even discussion of homegrown Codex: Fallen rules. ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=c7e32186a9c8eb72e976ed3f7a5fd5c5&showforum=6)
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Man, I wish there was a real Black Library where I could get a Black Library Card and take out Black Library Books without having to buy them. Of course, late fees would be your soul. But it would be worth it. - InquisitorMack |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/04 23:43:07
Subject: The Fallen.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
United States of England
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Although I have dabbled with Fallen Angels, to be honest I don't see a massive attraction to fielding tham as a coherant army. Not just because it goes against the "fluff", but because it would potentially lack character.
According to troglodite law, most Fallen have turned to Chaos or have tried to eek out a living as a "normal" human (that second part I find completely a joke, can you imagine a 8ft tall guy with an Astartes physique walking into a town and claiming to be just a "traveller"?)
Now the ones who have turned to Chaos will simply be practising under one of the Four "Tops" of Chaos.....so a Berzerker, a Plague Marine, a Noise Marine or a slave to Change.....end of really?
The only real way I could see someone using a Fallen Angel, would be as a plot twist in a Campaign, or as part of a larger Chaos gathering....but again, this would only really have any significance if you played against a Dark Angel, and they could use the "Hunt the Fallen" rule......
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Man down, Man down.... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/04 23:51:04
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
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I agree delephont; I ironically, I don't think that the background is there for players to use a full army. I can't see the fallen obtaining vehicles in their situation, so surviving would give them a more Wulfen like existence. I'm gonna check out that website above, just to satisfy my curiosity; the point of this thread was to see if there are any closet Fallen players out there.
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I really should be spending my time more constructively. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/05 13:25:45
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Back in the summer event called, "Hunt for the Fallen", I caught a couple of them and they joined one of my armies. now as a sqad, they had thier moments, and the modeling for them was alot of fun.
I would have thought that someone would have picked up on this and ran with it by now.
As being eternally hunted, you'd think that stealth might be a chapter ability, maybe because they have been on the run for so long, that they might have a quick strike ability,
and for being older then most of the other chapters, they could take a page out of the chaos space marines and use thier abilities.
Not that they are chaos, but they could use the abilities, along for the win.
As for the Fluff, Cypher wasn't nessesarily evil, or chaos. He just knows something that the chapter doesn't want out there as known.
My big question is about Calaban, the DA homeplanet.
If the planet was destroyed, what happened to the lower catacombes of the fortess monistary? does that mean the Johnson and Luthor are gone for good?
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At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/05 14:25:17
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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Grot 6 wrote:
My big question is about Calaban, the DA homeplanet.
If the planet was destroyed, what happened to the lower catacombes of the fortess monistary? does that mean the Johnson and Luthor are gone for good?
According to C  A Johnson and Luther were fighting in the Tower of Angels, one of the fortress monasteries on Caliban when Luther mortally wounded Johnson and realizing what he'd done to a lifelong friend he denied the Chaos Gods, who were kind of pissed about it so they swept up all of Luther's followers and scattered them across the galaxy and destroyed Caliban in the process. Johnson's body was never found but they did find Luther in the Tower of Angels and now they keep him in the deepest part of the Rock and only Azrael has access to him. Apparently the consider him a 'prophet' because he keeps ranting about how the Lion will return soon and forgive him of his sins.
@Delephont
When the Emperor came to Caliban Johnson and Luther were in a knightly order and all of the Order was inducted into the Dark Angels, but some were too old for the implanted organs, so they just kind of became pseudo-Marines instead of 8 foot tall gods of war. I'm assuming this is what they are referring to when they say something about them trying to scratch out normal lives.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/05 14:49:09
Subject: The Fallen.
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
No. VA USA
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I painted a full nurgle army that was based completely on a fallen premise. It even had cypher and a unit of fallen that hadn't succumed to nurgle yet.
All the CSM and dreadnaughts and vehicles were done with partial Dark Angel markings and the rest of the model was ooze and puss and nurgly... It was an awesome looking army.
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A woman will argue with a mirror..... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/05 17:24:06
Subject: The Fallen.
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Charging Wild Rider
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Delephont wrote:
According to troglodite law, most Fallen have turned to Chaos or have tried to eek out a living as a "normal" human (that second part I find completely a joke, can you imagine a 8ft tall guy with an Astartes physique walking into a town and claiming to be just a "traveller"?)
Well they'd probably pass on Catachan, have you seen those minis?? That;s where all the fallen are hidhing....on Catachan!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/08/05 17:24:21
And so, due to rising costs of maintaining the Golden Throne, the Emperor's finest accountants spoke to the Demigurg. A deal was forged in blood and extensive paperwork for a sub-prime mortgage with a 5/1 ARM on the Imperial Palace. And lo, in the following years the housing market did tumble and the rate skyrocketed leaving the Emperor's coffers bare. A dark time has begun for the Imperium, the tithes can not keep up with the balloon payments and the Imperial Palace and its contents, including the Golden Throne, have fallen into foreclosure. With an impending auction on the horizon mankind holds its breath as it waits to see who will gain possession of the corpse-god and thus, the fate of humanity...... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/05 20:40:13
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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Paramount Plague Censer Bearer
Atlanta
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I debated running a unit of Fallen as my chosen, 10,000 years of hiding would certainly make for good infiltrators.
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Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking its chops.
* H. L. Mencken, in Minority Report (1956)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/05 21:36:48
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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[DCM]
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IAmTheWalrus wrote:
@Delephont
When the Emperor came to Caliban Johnson and Luther were in a knightly order and all of the Order was inducted into the Dark Angels, but some were too old for the implanted organs, so they just kind of became pseudo-Marines instead of 8 foot tall gods of war. I'm assuming this is what they are referring to when they say something about them trying to scratch out normal lives.
Good catch!
I had forgotten about that...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/06 00:12:27
Subject: The Fallen.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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IIRC, C: SM labels them as "Unknown", not "Unforgiven".
The biggest problem is that they "Unknown" CSM are pictured in dark green armor, whereas any Fluff-accurate Fallen Angels would be wearing the black armor of the pre-heresy Dark Angels, with insignia in red. At least up until the Cyper green armor retcon...
Now if you want to argue that Dark Angels are especially susceptible to the lures of Chaos, and that groups of DA continue to Fall with alarming regularity, such that Interrogator-Chaplains are necessary to prevent the disintegration of the Chapter, I'd agree with that.
In that case, Fallen DA would simply fight as ordinary DA - there is no difference. Otherwise, Fallen DA are just another Chaos paint scheme with different army bitz to be used.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/08/06 03:53:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/06 18:25:20
Subject: The Fallen.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
United States of England
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Now that would make for interesting fluff, 1 in every 10 DA is cursed to fall to Chaos because of a "fault" in their otherwise perfect geneseed......that would be a much darker secret that needs to be hidden, and would certainly earn them the name "Unforgiven"
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Man down, Man down.... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/06 18:31:40
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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Deadshot Weapon Moderati
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1 in every 10 is a large number. I guess we'd be looking at pseudo DA marines with perhaps psychic tendencies or mutations. I prefer to imagine them as an Alpha Legion related force, moving behind the scenes as Cypher did around the Eye Of Terror campaign. A shame that he wasn't more prominent.
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I really should be spending my time more constructively. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/06 20:01:18
Subject: The Fallen.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I suspect the DA flaw is deep and pervasive - every DA has the potential to Fall, and it is not uncommon for this to happen in smaller or greater ways. Thus, they require Interrogator-Chaplains to maintain discipline and faith, not unlike the Spanish Inquisition. I see the DA as barely Loyalist, and heavily challenged to stay that way. Thus, I see the DA as very "human" among SM, each individually challenged in their faith every minute of every day.
If you re-read the DA fluff with this kind of thinking in the back of your head, the whole thing takes on a much more interesting twist.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/08 00:08:50
Subject: Re:The Fallen.
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Oberleutnant
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I'll be putting a 10 strong unit, with Rhino, and a dreadnought in my red corsairs army...
Mick
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Digitus Impudicus!
Armies- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/08 02:08:03
Subject: The Fallen.
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Fixture of Dakka
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The best way to play Fallen would be to use a SM ally for IG.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/08 17:36:04
Subject: The Fallen.
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I usually see one or two Fallen armies at every GT or GT-size event I attend. Not counting mine.
I got the idea at my first GT, Baltimore 2001, back when they were still selling bits by weight. I saw the metal Deathwing shoulder pads (the winged sword with the broken blade) and was just hooked by that image. I bought 60 of them, and over the next several years toyed with a few different ways of using them. The one I really wanted to try was Fallen, which I thought the broken sword could also symbolize, though wasn’t sure how to implement their rules. The original 3rd ed codex had them as basically CSM veterans with And They Shall Know No Fear, so I considered several ways to try to replicate the rules as closely as possible for a full army while using an official codex. For a while I strongly considered Space Wolves, as the rules for Grey Hunters are very “veteran-esque”, and under the old rules SW and DA would hit each other on a 3+ in HTH, which was also one of the rules for the Fallen unit. I never settled on a plan I really liked though.
Finally Craig Gallant (of The D6 Generation fame) ran an event at the old Dakka store in the Fall/Winter of 2003, I think. It was called the Novitiate Tournament. The point was to make a NEW army, or finish up an existing project, up to 1000pts. Use some of those old models you had on your shelf. I had some marine stuff, and those shoulder pads. I hadn’t settled on a way to do my Fallen, but decided to build the force as battle company Dark Angels, justifying the Deathwing shoulder pads by saying my army was a Fallen-hunting expeditionary force on detached duty on the edge of the Eye of Terror. All the regular marines are basically provisional members of the Deathwing, scheduled to be inducted fully if they didn’t die on the mission. With the whole force avoiding contact with other loyalists or even other DA forces to remove the risk of the secret getting out. In keeping with this concept I figured that the force had to resupply with captured gear frequently, so I used a bunch of chaos bits; some bolters, shoulder pads, the occasional helmet or backpack, and the turret on my predator. Most of the larger pieces had purity seals stuck on them, indicating that they had been officially cleansed and resanctified to the Emperor’s service. The force was led by an Interrogator-Chaplain, of course. I brought this army to the 2004 Boston GT and tied for 9th place Overall. As it was my most recent army it naturally looked a lot nicer than my two older armies (Slaanesh chaos and Codex: Eldar), so I kept bringing it to tournaments.
Anyway, after a couple years of use I got a bit tired of always using them as loyalists, so I started fielding them with Chaos rules and just calling them Fallen. Originally I never used cult troops, just the Mark of Undivided, leaving it ambiguous whether they were truly chaos followers or just outcast renegades. I conceptualized the Fallen force as a mirror of my loyalist Fallen-hunting force. A dark joke perpetuated by the chaos gods, with both forces operating in the same area, fighting most of the same foes, and frequently being confused for one another. As far as rules go, using the old Chaos SM codex I usually used the Word Bearers legion rules, mostly so I could use the Accursed Crozius for my HQ to be a Chaplain.
More recently, with the new book, I’ve wanted to use Oblits and other more blatantly chaos models, so I’ve gone ahead and pushed my force over the edge into “true” chaos, adding daemons, a daemon prince, icon bearers for squads, etc.
You can see some photos at the links below.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/208715.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Danger_Planet_May_17_Tourney_Report
Oh, the Cold Steel Mercs banners you can see in a couple of the shots are my 40k tournament-going team. They’re not actually part of the army fluff, but were added for team theme for Adepticon. Not that that worked…
Anyway, overall I quite like the concept, though I know it doesn’t quite fit with the established DA fluff. It’s still fun, and makes for really cool “grudge” matches when I come up against a Dark Angels player, particularly at tournaments. It’s kind of an instant-bonding thing, our armies showing a shared appreciation of the fluff, and making those games a little more fun and interesting.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/08 17:58:23
Subject: The Fallen.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Back at the dawn of 3rd Edition, when you could take an all-Veteran force, my MoCU CSM were Fallen Angels wearing faded black Heresy-era armor. They were a mean force and did quite well. But I was never quite satisfied with the conversions and so forth.
The basic concept of Fallen SM is still attractive to me, but I want to do something a little different that people probably haven't seen. So for 5th Edition, I'm going to be doing a new force of "Fallen" using the CSM rules, just not Fallen DA. I'm waiting for the whole SM thing to shake out before I finalize the army design and start building, but I think it'll be a good one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/09 04:22:39
Subject: The Fallen.
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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Hmm, well if I remeber correctly the parts of the dark angels legion that actually fell hadn't sworn loyolty to any of the four gods and also IIRC somewhere I read that they were whisked away be a minor chaos god, not one of the big four. I think his name was the trickster or something. (and no I am pretty sure it wasn't the laughing god though that would be a pretty hilarious plot twist)
Aside from that Fallen Dark Angels in my mind anyways aren't really a chaos traitor legion, I more so think they are a simply triator legion who fell through pride. In the codex it says that Luthor tricked the young dark angels by telling them that all of the glory had already been taken by the marines that were away. Leaving none for themselves.
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/10 08:40:11
Subject: The Fallen.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The "Fifth" Chaos god would typically be Malal, but he's not so much a trickster as the renegade who wants to kill his own.
But yeah, the old Angels of Death book had awesome Fluff.
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