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So, because no one had posted these here yet, I figured I ought to:

Honour Guard
Honour Guard (available to Chapter Master's only) have artificer armour, bolters, bolt pistols, grenades, and power weapons. They can replace their power weapons with relic blades (S:6, two-handed power weapons) and also have various other options such as storm shields (3+ invulnerable save against all attacks) and auxillary grenade launchers (a 12” grenade launcher that can be fired in addition to any other weapon each and every turn). Marneus Calgar allows the player to field three squads of Honour Guard instead than the standard one squad.

Tabletop Performance
Combat Tactics
Playing against this in an actual game was not bad as you can still attempt to sweep the marines (as with ATSKNF, they take wounds as if they are fearless if caught). Every time my marine opponent tried it my nasty and quick assault units caught them, and Combat Tactics only forced him to take more armour saves. If the marines had been successful more often I may have had a different opinion on Combat Tactics.

ATSKNF
This has changed a little. Marines automatically rally at the begining of their turn and can act normally (they do not count as moving, and don't get the 3" consolidate). They still can't rally if an enemy is within 6". Other than that, it's the exact same.

General Gameplay Thoughts
Overall, the game felt like I was playing a codex marine list. I'm not saying that simply because my opponent wasn't useing any of the new codex's flashy new units, but the army played like marines should. Perhaps if I get whacked by some of those new units I'll change my opinion.

FAQs
When the marine codex comes out, GW will release updated FAQs for the DA, BA and BT list making some of the changes carry over to them. ATSKNF is a good candidate for this as it is written much more cleanly in the new codex.

Original post is here: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/08/rumors-codex-space-marines-odds-and.html

I'll admit that I was skeptical of Storm Shields being 3+ across the board - I figured it would just be a Terminator thing. But it sounds like it will be for PA and TDA alike.

"..some of the changes carry over to them."

Well let's hope they do eh. Be nice if they weren't left behind.

Wow, I really wonder just how much these uber-Veterans will cost.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Wow, I really wonder just how much these uber-Veterans will cost.

I'm thinking that Calgar and his lauded three squads of honor guard will probably run you 1300-1500 points, easy.

Those honor guard sound like they could ruin a unit in shooting and close combat no problem with the power weapons and grenade launchers, they may be expensive but worth every point. I'm making a bit of a speculation but it sounds like they can put out a lot of shots and strength six power weapons isn't anything to sniff at.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Those honor guard sound like they could ruin a unit in shooting and close combat no problem with the power weapons and grenade launchers, they may be expensive but worth every point. I'm making a bit of a speculation but it sounds like they can put out a lot of shots and strength six power weapons isn't anything to sniff at.

It looks more like an land raider effect. Too good at too many things and not enough time in a game to use it all effectively.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Those honor guard sound like they could ruin a unit in shooting and close combat no problem with the power weapons and grenade launchers, they may be expensive but worth every point. I'm making a bit of a speculation but it sounds like they can put out a lot of shots and strength six power weapons isn't anything to sniff at.

Worth every point in the way veterans, grey knights, terminators, etc are all worth every point?

They remind me more of Deathwatch actually. Any of those units with proper application can make good account of themselves. I'm still thinking in fourth edition mode though where you can just charge through any unit you can reach to another. With having to stand there a turn though things might get a little bad for them.

They don't seem like a unit that you can give everything to and send them out. You'll have to specialize them to shoot or stab both might get too costly. I'd say either gear them with storm shields or launchers. Once again speculation though.

Honor Guard don't have the option of SS. Regular command squads do.

HG sound overpriced (Friendly game unit)

They have no access to Inv. saves.
They cost as much (Sounds like more with proper gear) than regular Assault Terms
They have one less attack per model than Assault Terms w/ LCs

They'll stomp a regular joe unit (and lose to CC specialists) then get shot by AP2 weaponry. I'll still model some!

AgeOfEgos wrote:Honor Guard don't have the option of SS. Regular command squads do.

HG sound overpriced (Friendly game unit)

They have no access to Inv. saves.
They cost as much (Sounds like more with proper gear) than regular Assault Terms
They have one less attack per model than Assault Terms w/ LCs

They'll stomp a regular joe unit (and lose to CC specialists) then get shot by AP2 weaponry. I'll still model some!

If they can get Storm Shields, then they have a 2+/3+ invulnerable save. AP2 weaponery will have very little affect on them and it sounds like, with relic blades, that they can hold up and mow down every Monsterous creature in the game in short order.

How many points would be to much? 25pts? 35pts? 50pts?

2+/3+ with S6 power weapons? Assuming 2 attacks base, They'd have to be 60pts + to be "fair" to Grey Knight Terminators.

DarthDiggler wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Honor Guard don't have the option of SS. Regular command squads do.

HG sound overpriced (Friendly game unit)

They have no access to Inv. saves.
They cost as much (Sounds like more with proper gear) than regular Assault Terms
They have one less attack per model than Assault Terms w/ LCs

They'll stomp a regular joe unit (and lose to CC specialists) then get shot by AP2 weaponry. I'll still model some!

If they can get Storm Shields, then they have a 2+/3+ invulnerable save. AP2 weaponery will have very little affect on them and it sounds like, with relic blades, that they can hold up and mow down every Monsterous creature in the game in short order.

How many points would be to much? 25pts? 35pts? 50pts?

Well, they can't get Storm Shields so that entire point is moot. They have no access to Inv. saves...so AP2 weaponry will kill them rather quickly in addition with other power weaponry wielding units.....or simply a great deal of shots.

As for cost, I don't know the magic number. I do know this; Five HG w/ Relic Blades will cost more than five Terms w/ an AC. So figure around 40ish pts a man (or more). Whatever the magic cost is, that 'feels' pretty expensive for a small unit with no Inv. saves.

Also, keep in mind you must take a Chapter Master to have access...which limits your HQ slots.

I can only go from the original post from BOLS which said they do have access to storm shields. Have you seen something that would contradict this?

DarthDiggler wrote:I can only go from the original post from BOLS which said they do have access to storm shields. Have you seen something that would contradict this?

Multiple postings by those whom have the dex stating quite clearly that HG don't get SS. Do a search on Seer for VerifiablySane or Ignatius on B&C (They have the dex and have practically laid out the entire book in their posts). BOLS usually rounds up rumours (Which spawn from those two sites)...so I believe it's akin to the Whisper game at times.

Apparently 2 separate, and reliable sources, one from B&C and one from Warseer, have both stated that command squads and not honor guard may take storm shields.

EDIT: AoE beat me by that much.

Can you give your HG a banner?

I doubt the accuracy of these rumours, due to the inclusion of ATSKNF references.

Main reason being that the leaked codex page showing the Sternguard rules makes no mention of ASTKNF. Other rumours & indications also contribute to the idea that ATSKNF is gone from 40k.

Tribune wrote:I doubt the accuracy of these rumours, due to the inclusion of ATSKNF references.

Main reason being that the leaked codex page showing the Sternguard rules makes no mention of ASTKNF. Other rumours & indications also contribute to the idea that ATSKNF is gone from 40k.

erhm...both the Sternguard and the Vanguard entry mentions ATSKNF.

Tribune wrote:I doubt the accuracy of these rumours, due to the inclusion of ATSKNF references.

Main reason being that the leaked codex page showing the Sternguard rules makes no mention of ASTKNF. Other rumours & indications also contribute to the idea that ATSKNF is gone from 40k.

ATSKNF listed in Special Rules. Clear as day.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/AceGunman/1213549046183.jpg

PAGK don't get invul saves, and are 25 points including a storm bolter, the Aegis, and everything else. 25-30 points is probably about right for Honor Guard with Relic Blades them, which will make them a truly NASTY unit indeed.

It may be a little hard to Land Raider rush with them, but why not Rhino? If Marneus can get 3 squads, why not...

Marneus

3xHG in Rhinos (300-350) ish?
3xTac Squads
3x Whirlywinds

Go!

Whoo. I just got done plowing through a discussion of the new rumors on B&C, reading up on Ignatius's stuff. There's a lot of things that are going to make a lot of people mad, but it's all expensive as feth.

Ignatius on B&C wrote:For example honour guard are over 100 points for the base squad 1x chapter champion and 2x honour guard, plus upgrades and extra honour guard thats a hefty price tag. Additionaly you would have to purchase a chapter master too to even take them! See my point! so all in all your having to fork out 200 points for the master and honour guard thats four marines and thats before upgrades too!

Additionally, the Honor Guard have access to Relic Blades, but it sounds like those are upgrades, so the 25-30 points doesn't buy you a model and a Relic Blade.

cheers to mage & mosher for pointing out my failing memory! I stand corrected (erk)

PS. Trawling a few pages of the rumour thread on Warseer does indeed reveal VerifiablySane debunking the honour guard + storm shield myth numerous times. He gets progressively (and humorously) more exasperated every time someone asks him again...

All the tidbits about new uber cool toys and guys are good and all. Have we heard how their basic tac guys are going to work exactly now? 5/10, or 5-10? Specials, heavies, ect?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Additionally, the Honor Guard have access to Relic Blades, but it sounds like those are upgrades, so the 25-30 points doesn't buy you a model and a Relic Blade.

thats how I read it as well.

If they're anything like Nobs and Meganobs, these guys are going to be scary but too expensive to be an auto include.

Pariah Press wrote: Can you give your HG a banner?

Supposedly the Chapter Banner gives the unit counter-attack.