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In 4th the models were not considered on the board.
I vaguely recall reading that embarked units still count for claiming objectives but I wasn't sure if you counted as on the table.

I ask because I was curious if a Farseer can cast spells while embarked on a wave serpent.
Don't have the BGB at the moment so I appreciate any informed responses.
Cheers

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/214943.page

Models can cast psychic powers that act like ranged weapons if the vehicle they're embarked upon has a firing point that the caster can use. Models can case psychic powers that do not act like ranged weapons without a firing point, and the effect is measured from the vehicle's hull.

Nurglitch wrote:Models can cast psychic powers that act like ranged weapons if the vehicle they're embarked upon has a firing point that the caster can use. Models can case psychic powers that do not act like ranged weapons without a firing point, and the effect is measured from the vehicle's hull.

Yup that's how my play group has been doing it.

My question is:

Lets say I have a Farseer with a unit of Banshees in a Wave Serpent.

Can I choose to Fortune the Banshee unit inside the Wave Serpent?

-Jara

PS: Currently we've been not doing it as it's very unclear if I should be able to.

Jaradakar wrote:

Yup that's how my play group has been doing it.

My question is:

Lets say I have a Farseer with a unit of Banshees in a Wave Serpent.

Can I choose to Fortune the Banshee unit inside the Wave Serpent?

-Jara

PS: Currently we've been not doing it as it's very unclear if I should be able to.

Why wouldn't this be allowed? The Banshees (Wave Serpent) are most definitely within 6" of the Farseer (Wave Serpent).

In other words, you measure range from the Wave Serpent to the same Wave Serpent and, lo-and-behold, it is within 6" of itself.

yakface wrote:


Why wouldn't this be allowed? The Banshees (Wave Serpent) are most definitely within 6" of the Farseer (Wave Serpent).

In other words, you measure range from the Wave Serpent to the same Wave Serpent and, lo-and-behold, it is within 6" of itself.

To play devils advocate, one could argue you can't see the unit inside the Wave Serpent... stupid I know.

Logically I agree with you yakeface, and seeing how a Farseer casting fortune on the same unit it's in is a common occurrence (and not game breaking), I see no reason why it should not be allowed.

I still think others might have issues with it but mostly due to semantics.

Does Fortune require LOS or just range?

Jaradakar wrote:

To play devils advocate, one could argue you can't see the unit inside the Wave Serpent... stupid I know.

Logically I agree with you yakeface, and seeing how a Farseer casting fortune on the same unit it's in is a common occurrence (and not game breaking), I see no reason why it should not be allowed.

I still think others might have issues with it but mostly due to semantics.

Fortune doesn't require line of sight so I would like to see the argument as to why a Farseer can't cast Fortune on the squad inside the transport with him.

My group has been allowing Guide to be cast on the transport, the unit inside (including the farseer), or any other unit within Guide's range measured form the hull of the transport.

It does get a little confusing, but I don't think it's unbalanced and it's definitely within the rules set in my mind.

I'm inclined to agree with yak

all evidence points to the unit still being on the table.
while it's not stated my LGG seems to feel that spells such as fortune, guide, and doom can be cast within the transport.

thanks for the input guys.

yakface wrote:

Fortune doesn't require line of sight so I would like to see the argument as to why a Farseer can't cast Fortune on the squad inside the transport with him.

Cool thanks for the info, the more I think about it the more I have to agree with you.

I strongly disagree, why would they be able to use passive abilities? I cant find anything at all supporting this claim, i can hover find some rules pointing in the direction that it isnt allowed. Just the Other day we had a furious discussion about this in our gaming group. I'd like to shine some light over the subject. Lets debate!

Thoughts:

p.66 EMBARKING " When the unit embarks it is removed from the table and placed aside" now this countered by the following words "If the player needs to measure a range involving the embarked unit"

Now because of this it doesnt help any case, although it clearly shows Something can be "cast" FROM or AT a embarked unit.

p.66 FIRE POINTS "A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire (or use a psychic power)"
This clearly states that you can fire or use psychic powers, however this is again a moot point sence developers could have figured that it was obvious that you dont need a firepoint to use a psychic hood.


p.3 ORK FAQ 2008 Specially states that a Wierdboy can use his "passive abilites" Embarked. This would normaly point twords the conclution that he can and others cant. However this isnt realy a "normal" "passive ability"
so im uncertain about this one.

p.61. CSM SUMMONING DAEMONS-> LESSER DAEMONS "If the model carrying the icon is inside a transport when the daemons become avalible from reserve the models must deep stike within 6" of the vehicle (And will not scatter)" This specifies that this "passive ability" ( a chaos teleport homer, kind of) works when embarked. The imperial issue says nothing about it.

These points are the few i have found, note that some dont realy strenghten one or the other(relative becuase of the way i wrote them) This is becuase i dont realy care if it is allowed or not, is just want one to be correct.
We all know that GW rulewriting normaly specifies what you can do, and not what you cant do. Yakface wrote this in a more refined way, but whatever

My answer right now is NO! you cant. Becuase it doesnt say that you CAN. However if you could, in my oppinion it would be just think about all the things you could do.

Techpriests would be able to repair a vehicle from within it
Dante would convey his "inspiring" ability from inside a Landraider
DA Sacred standard would convey Fearless ability from inside a landraider!
And so on.

just some thoughts

I think even psychic attacks require line of sight, because anything treated like a shooting attack should as well. Most psyker attacks say to treat as a shooting. A vehicle with fire points can allow models embarked to make shooting attacks, so its pretty obvious that a psyker can stare and point intently too as he melts your brains. He just needs line of sight.

Psyker attacking embarked models, I'd say is a no no.

I say psyker powers cast from within a vehicle is ok but really should be measured from the middle of the vehicle and not the outer perimeter of the model.

Are "passive" abilities really the same as using a Beginning of Turn Psychic Power? I'd argue no.

Also, is repairing a vehicle a passive ability? You use the repair ability instead of shooting during the shooting phase if the model is within base to base with the vehicle to be repaired.

This brings up the question of:

Is a model in "Base to base" with a vehicle it is embarked in?

(should I start a new thread on this? - I'm new to this form, not sure how you guys do this.)

Thanks in advance for the input.

I'm with Yak on this one.

The rule on page 50 says, "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." This is the general rule that permits psykers to use their powers under the stated conditions (i.e. every player turn) unless some specific rule makes an exception.

I don't see anything in the transport rules or elsewhere that states "an embarked model may not use psychic powers." So we must conclude that the page 50 rule stands, and an embarked model can use psychic powers.

For passive abilities and items such as psychic hoods and leadership, I'm seeing that the rules allow it according to the same pattern of general specific:
1. each item has a general rule that allows you to use it. For example, the psychic hood has a rule that says (in the WH codex) "The psychic hood can be used each time blah blah."
2. The remainder of the rules don't contain anything that suggests these abilities go away when a model is embarked--no contradictions or exceptions.
3. So the general rules stand, and embarked models can use items and abilities.

Can anybody find something specific *from the rules* that disallows or creates a contradiction?

aka_mythos wrote:

I say psyker powers cast from within a vehicle is ok but really should be measured from the middle of the vehicle and not the outer perimeter of the model.

Well on page 56, Vehicles & Measuring Distances would imply you measure from hull.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm with Yak on this one.


The rule on page 50 says, "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." This is the general rule that permits psykers to use their powers under the stated conditions (i.e. every player turn) unless some specific rule makes an exception.

I don't see anything in the transport rules or elsewhere that states "an embarked model may not use psychic powers." So we must conclude that the page 50 rule stands, and an embarked model can use psychic powers.

For passive abilities and items such as psychic hoods and leadership, I'm seeing that the rules allow it according to the same pattern of general specific:
1. each item has a general rule that allows you to use it. For example, the psychic hood has a rule that says (in the WH codex) "The psychic hood can be used each time blah blah."
2. The remainder of the rules don't contain anything that suggests these abilities go away when a model is embarked--no contradictions or exceptions.
3. So the general rules stand, and embarked models can use items and abilities.

Can anybody find something specific *from the rules* that disallows or creates a contradiction?

What kinda bs is that? just becuase something isnt disallowed in the rulebook doesnt mean you can do it. Thinking like this would create utter chaos. Its quite clear what you can do inside a vehicle. shoot or use psychic powers from a Firepoint. You cant just make up stuff becuase it suits you.

Except Bla_Ze, the rules say you CAN use psychic powers at the time appropriate to that power. Unless something else makes an exception to this then the default status to "can I use a psychic power?" is YES.

The rule about fire points is there because without it, due to LOS restrictions you would then be disallowed from using it. This rule overrides the LOS restriction for shooting and certain powers because it was needed. No where does it say "you can only do these things in a vehicle."

Since the rules say you CAN do X,Y,or Z unless specified otherwise, and the vehicle rules do NOT specify otherwise, then you can use all of the abilities you referred to in your first post.

aka_mythos wrote:I think even psychic attacks require line of sight, because anything treated like a shooting attack should as well. Most psyker attacks say to treat as a shooting. A vehicle with fire points can allow models embarked to make shooting attacks, so its pretty obvious that a psyker can stare and point intently too as he melts your brains. He just needs line of sight.

Psyker attacking embarked models, I'd say is a no no.

I say psyker powers cast from within a vehicle is ok but really should be measured from the middle of the vehicle and not the outer perimeter of the model.

Farseers have different rules about the LoS issues:

Eldar Codex: Unless otherwise noted, these powers work as described in the Psychic Powers section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, are used at the start of the Eldar turn and do not require the Eldar psyker to have line of sight to the target.

Kyrolon wrote:Except Bla_Ze, the rules say you CAN use psychic powers at the time appropriate to that power. Unless something else makes an exception to this then the default status to "can I use a psychic power?" is YES.

The rule about fire points is there because without it, due to LOS restrictions you would then be disallowed from using it. This rule overrides the LOS restriction for shooting and certain powers because it was needed. No where does it say "you can only do these things in a vehicle."

Since the rules say you CAN do X,Y,or Z unless specified otherwise, and the vehicle rules do NOT specify otherwise, then you can use all of the abilities you referred to in your first post.

Are you even reading? The book specifies what you CAN DO inside a vehicle!

p.66 FIRE POINTS "A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire (or use a psychic power)"

Bla_Ze, your quote from p66 is irrelevant to the fact. It does not day "these are the only things you can do inside a vehicle," does it? It tells me what I can use FIRE POINTS for. Not all abilities require a fire point.

Please show me where it says the use of any psychic power or other ability requires a fire point.

Therefore...you may normally cast powers.

The vehicle rules do NOT override this rule.

So...nothing changes. As long as you have LOS (if necessary) you may cast powers/use abilities.

Please note this is exactly what I said previously. Perhaps you should look in a mirror before you criticise other's reading comprehension.

No i was talking about "real" Psychic powers.

Basicly your saying that you could use, say.... Lightning Arc inside a vehicle with no firing points?

Then you are allowing any model inside a vehicle to shoot without a Fire Point also, right?

They are covered by the same rule.. how can one be correct and one not?

No?

FIRE POINTS ARE ONLY RELEVANT TO POWERS THAT COUNT AS SHOOTING IN THE GW FAQS

Congratualtions you have learned how to use Caps Lock. I'm so proud!...

Although i was not writing too you.

Kyrolon:
>_< I'm not even arguing against you if you havent noticed. All i said was that the book specifies what you can do inside a vehicle.

Please show me where it says the use of any psychic power or other ability requires a fire point.

As for example Lightning Arc needs LOS, you cant draw LOS without a Firepoint.

Bla_Ze wrote:As for example Lightning Arc needs LOS, you cant draw LOS without a Firepoint.

So you can't use Lightning Arc inside a transport that doesn't have a firepoint. But for psychic powers that DON'T require LOS, I figure there's no reason why area of effect powers can't be used on units in a transport with no firepoints, or by a psyker in a transport with no firepoints.

Well, you are correct, i hate to admit it though. I'm desperately looking for loophole....

Bla_Ze, I think you have finally come to the point I was trying to explain.

Yes, of course shooting powers require a fire point. That's the point of the rule you've been quoting. It allows the use of fire points to give you LOS for the shooting power. The thing stopping you from using that power though was not merely being in a vehicle, it was not having LOS. Hence the clarification.

For powers that require no LOS the firepoint was never a necessity to begin with. (except Eldritch Storm for some reason).

The same is true of the other abilities you refered to in your first post (LD bubbles and so forth).

I'm glad it's finally clear.

What about Rites of Battle and Apothacaries? This came up in my last game. We ultimately decided both were fine, mostly because he had the rites and I had the apoth.


-Scott

By general consensus.

A Reductor would work as it does not require LOS.

Rites of battle however is a diffrent matter, it specifies that the character needs to be on the table, but the embarking rule specifies that a unit embarking is removed from the table.

This whole subject is realy a cesspool of fail...

His argument was that the Blood Angel "codex" doesn't say anything about the model needing to be on the board. All it says is they may use this leadership for moral pinning and leadership tests, but not psychic


Scott