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This is something I did alot in 4th edition when I was both playing deathwing and then later when playing Lysanderwing.

I am pretty chagrined that you can no longer turn off powerfists to get a normal str 4 attack at initiative.

Page 35 under 'Who Can Fight':

All engaged models will fight in this turn’s Assault
phase with their full number of Attacks and use any
special close combat attack they have.

Can anyone find ANYTHING that will allow a terminator to 'pull his punches' so to speak?

Nope.

Damn. This really makes me want to go on a homicidal rampage.

Thats just fething stupid.

I always thought it was kind of odd that someone who was fighting for his life and for his Emperor would pull his punches...

Maybe you can hit them with your stormbolter.

My old buddy was the opposite when I wanted my Scorpion Exarch attacks.

"I'm getting a new hobby."

Just to add insult to injury, note that until an errata comes out to change the rules again, you're down to a single attack with the powerfists. Terminator honours are a bonus attack and so cannot be combined with a power fist for an additional attack.

From page 42 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

A normal and a special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon’s bonuses.

Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.

From page 25 of Codex Space Marines:

A model with Terminator Honours adds +1 to its Attacks characteristic.

I see nothing in the first rules passage that would disallow the second, or even need a FAQ for that matter.

wight_widow wrote:Terminator honours are a bonus attack ...

...but are not the bonus attack provided by a second close combat weapon.

You get bonus attacks with Powerfists. You just don't get the bonus attack from having two CCWs, unless they're both Powerfists.

The bonus attack thing was done to death in the other thread, lets not start it again

"Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightening claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

here's a link to the other thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215962.page

I can see Ghaz point, but pre-FAQ his interpretation requires a certain number of semantic gymnastics to work. The exact meaning of the word "bonus" leaps to mind as the strongest part of his argument, similar to the way the word "normal" was the key part of the argument against Star Engines ping-pong. Terminator Honours does give an extra attack, power fists cannot benefit from additional attacks, however because it does not state specifically that it is a "bonus" attack then the terminators can gain the benefit, unless he's being deliberately confusing.

I do agree with you Lormax these discussions are silly but we've got several forums full of them so my guess is that we must like incessantly thrashing over this kind of thing. People who just put their pieces on the table and play don't bother with rulebooks, and people who don't want to deal with semantics don't use GW products.

P42, Fighting with two single-handed weapons.

Those are the rules, they are simple and a new addition since 4th.

In short, the only time when you can choose to ignore a special weapon (ex a powerfist) is when you have two special weapons (powerfist and power sword as an example) in those cases you must state wich weapon you choose to use, you get the bonuses for that weapon but not +1 attack for using 2 CC weapons.

wight_widow wrote: I do agree with you Lormax these discussions are silly

His point wasn't that the discussion was silly. It was that the Bonus Attack thing has already been hashed out in its own thread, and derailing this thread by starting it up again serves no purpose.

Since we are on the subject, let me get this completely straight.

Termies have a 2 attack base.

Termies have power fists so only get one attack since they have one powerfist and one stormbolter (which is a two handed weapon so page 42 doesn't help).

I cannot "pull my punch" to reduce my str down to 4 and attack at initiative to get my 2 attack base stat.

Thus: I get one powerfist attack from a 40+ point termie.

Am I reading this wrong?

Fething 5th edition is better, my ass!

Ghaz wrote:I always thought it was kind of odd that someone who was fighting for his life and for his Emperor would pull his punches...

Or..... you could use intelligence when fighting for the emperor since you are using furious charge and don't want to wait all day for your powerfist to charge up so you could slap a beeyotch upside the head before his nimble little ass slices you in twain.

[edit]

What I did was the turn that I charged I would forgo the PF attacks and just use str 5 @ 5 initiative (Furious charge) to make the opponents squad I assaulted more easy to maintain later on in the assault. Once they are down to equitable numbers then I can afford to wait for the initiative 1 PF to go off.

No, you get 2 PF attacks, as you have 2 attacks (base) on your profile.

You aren't trying to combine a second CCW with the PF, so you just get your base number of attacks.

so:

1. Terminator, PF, Stormbolter - 2A (base) = 2PF attacks

2. Marine vet sgt, PF, pistol - 2A (base) = 2PF attacks (as you can't combine with the pistol to get an extra)

3. Marine vet sgt, 2x PF (assuming you could) - 2A (base) = 3PF attacks (as you CAN combine the PF's to get an extra attack)

4. Marine vet sgt, CCW, Pistol - 2A (base) = 3 attacks (as he CAN combine the CCW and pistol to get an extra attack)

I was getting pretty upset there for a moment (like making plans to sell 75 termies type of upset), until I realized that DA and BA are immune to this.

DA and BA termies do not have 'terminator honors', just a straight base 2 attack profile.

I am of the mind that it is a safe bet to assume that the new Vanilla SM will be the same so I don't think I have to worry about this idiotic and frankly pedantic issue much longer.

Not being able to turn off the power fists is still pretty infuriating though, but I will adapt.

Immune to what, Hellfury?

The supposition that terminator honors do not allow a power fist armed termie to have 2 base attacks with the PF

But haven't we established that that supposition is false?

yeah,
best to wait to wait and see if the terminators honours even make it to the new codex...
I never liked that bit of wargear to be honest...

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
best to wait to wait and see if the terminators honours even make it to the new codex...
I never liked that bit of wargear to be honest...

Panic...

Not really. . .whether or not terminator honors are in the new codex the ridiculous interpretation that Powerfists don't get bonus attacks would affect the bonus attack for charging.


Within context, the rule references the bonus attack for having two close combat weapons. This has been reinforced by the designer notes regarding this rule change and in the GW podcast. Therefore the only bonus attack powerfists, etc don't get is the one for having two close combat weapons and anyone who tries to claim otherwise in an actual game is going to be overruled by any tournament judge and/or shunned by their friends.

Well yak, if they listen to you again, then that is the way it shall be. Certainly I can see many independent tournaments using their own versions of the rules. Frankly they *should* just give up and let you write their rules considering you do it better, more accessibly and for free anyways. (I doubt you get many PMs about errors in your FAQs)

However, GW can ultimately have its judges rule any way they like. If it goes through a GW tourney without getting challenged, then that's the way people will have to play it when supervised by Games Workshop.

Tangentially, thanks for bringing up the no attacks for charging thing - 'cause IF they don't rule against it, then that's going to be part of the game too.

insaniak wrote:His point wasn't that the discussion was silly. It was that the Bonus Attack thing has already been hashed out in its own thread, and derailing this thread by starting it up again serves no purpose.

This is 100% correct. Leave the "But it's a BONUS attack, so I should get it!" vs the "Sorry, only get attacks from another PF/PK/LC" discussion in the other thread, we're talkin about turning off powerfists in here.

Did 4th have a line in the rulebook allowing this?

Fair enough. I'm not above admitting lapses in my reading comprehension. If we're getting back OT, then it certainly looks like GW has made their sales quotas for Terminator sprues, 'cause they sure aren't using the rules to sell them.

Lormax wrote:
Did 4th have a line in the rulebook allowing this?

They sure did.

page 46 4th ed rules second paragraph.

Gotz dat shizzle memorizzle, yo!

On ww's "just 1 attack evar for pF's" Yak has dispatched this "argument." Don't bring it up again. Just don't.

On the OP question, the old "turn off your powerfist" rule was one of the twiddly things that made combats in 4th ed really hard to adjudicate and made the difference between gamers who were mad rule savants and casual gamers impossibly huge. You had to have a ton of 40k knowledge to know when that was a good idea. It was really hard to explain to newer gamers why it was good idea to do it. I'm glad it's gone, along with the weirdness of "assault sniping" and "optimal casualty removal." The game is better without this fiddly dreck.

Your unsolicited opinions are duly noted.

Fiddly dreck? WTF?!?

I dont know about you Darrian, but after that barrage of opinions that added nothing to the thread I feel fulfilled and can now die a happy man.

Man after reading that I now understand what a hot iron up my nose must be like.