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So I ripped the VC's off my Carnifexes....with the new damage table and -2 on glances....the Venom Cannon blows. On warriors VS light armor maybe but...it's not a tank hunter any more and with run.....CC in back in a big way. Maybe Venom cannons have no place in a Nids list, Yakface I really want to see your V5 Carnifex builds with running now. I can't really trust my gut or other Nid players, but you I know have the insight.




Letting Off Steam.

I also pulled the VC's off of my Carnifexes. In almost all cases when you would want to shoot it, I think I'd rather run....

I'm currently running 3 strangler fexes in elite, and 3 dakkafexes as heavies. Eldar Waveserpent lists can be tough, but I'm usually able to assualt them at least twice per game. Since I almost always penetrate (yay AV 10) most of them usually go down.

I have added Bio-Plasma to the dakkafexes in order to add another str10 hit that always hits on a 4+. Unless your fighting a Land Raider, it really adds to your anti-armor in HtH.

make sure you add the new weapons via magnets, so you don't have the same problem all over again when the next Nid codex comes out and changes the optimal builds all over again. I'm thinking this is worthwhile for all TMCs.

VCs on fex's stop tanks from doing anything. no army has the ability to make vehicles so completely useless like nids do. you stop them from moving and shooting until your stealers and flyrant (now hittting rear armour) and get close enough to kill them. stop whining and think about your army.

Regwon wrote:VCs on fex's stop tanks from doing anything. no army has the ability to make vehicles so completely useless like nids do. you stop them from moving and shooting until your stealers and flyrant (now hittting rear armour) and get close enough to kill them. stop whining and think about your army.

It's a shame that most armies don't have something like some extra form of armor or other upgrade that allows them do ignore or down grade the damage.

Thank GW they don't have that.

I don't view the VC as sucking IMHO. I view it as being OK in 5th. In 3rd and fourth, the venom cannon was over powerful with the high number of shots via TMC and the large number that you could get into your army. It completely shut down my Mech opponents. Of course I remember the days of 3rd when I wielded two venom cannons (not one TL VC ) per fex. Now Mech has a healthy chance. Also thanks to the 50% rule, vehicles should have the same difficulty with finding cover as TMC (except for tau). So you are going to get your shots...you just have to make them count. Anyways, every other long distance anti-tank gun is in the same boat :S. Even with a cover save, you still have a 33% chance of stopping the tank from shooting. Also, with the strangle fex, you run into the same dellema as the VC...do I run or do I shoot. Maybe I just like to keep stuff simple. My gun fexes shoot and my ninja fex run. Lastly, VC still work great against sentinals, warwalkers, piranahs, DE and Ork vehicles. They are also effective at putting wounds on other MC. Just be thankful that they didn't nerf VC to the degree that they did to Biovores !

never did use VC's, allways hated them and took barbed stranglers instead.
love the warriors now, 4 with deathspitter, 1 with barbed strangler.
doesent do much to armour, but kills troop nicely.

I liked the warriors with TL deathspitter just fine in 4th (used them in the last Ard Boyz and was pleased with thier performance)...now in 5th they are just buffed. I am not sold on the BS vs another TL-deathspitter though. As I posted before, you give up 1/2 your wounding potential to double your radius, gain 12" range but half your accuracy. For me, 30" threat range plus 12" deployement is more than enough. I just go for the TL deathspitter now.

Yak's in Vegas.

Off to Vegas, Baby




To those who are making the trek to Vegas for the Games Workshop Grand Tournament, I'll see you all there.

To everyone else, sorry you can't make it, it's going to be a blast!


By yakface on 2008/09/04 08:14:13

wyomingfox wrote: Just be thankful that they didn't nerf VC to the degree that they did to Biovores !

QFT

Yeah I use to love my Biovores may they rest in piece

Venom Cannons are just ok now. They still can shake the tank so it doesn't shoot and blow up open topped vehicles. I still run them.

I have to still add this I love the Biovore still

"I have to still add this I love the Biovore still"

Oh, how do you use them and for what purpose? Just curious

biovores were great, lovely rules, now they are junk.
and the new bio's look like crap too, prefer the previous ones.

Ahh, well, shouldn't worry too much given GW ability to take new codices and make good units blow and bad units outrageous. In the next edition, biovores will be way BUFF, like unexploded spore mines will have the jump pack ability and all enemy units on the board will have to take a leadership test at -5 to avoid moving towards the closest mobile sack and poking it (remember Khorne ). Of course, genestealers will be given "child safety" scrissors instead of rending claws.

wyomingfox wrote:

"I have to still add this I love the Biovore still"

Oh, how do you use them and for what purpose? Just curious

Points

1-With the new blast rules you get more hits.
2-Mine types that can deal with high toughness units 4+ to wound (Bikes, Plague, MC's)
3-Fires "as" Barrage weapons ie no LOS needed, but they are NOT lists as G48 or Barrage rule so you can still us the BS3 to drop your scatter down. Also sadly they will not pin as they are not barrage. (Tyranid codex page 28 second paragraph from the bottom right, V5 rulebook page 32 second paragraph from the top left.)
4-If you roll very poor, you then place spore mines that can still get kills later.
5-With the new shooting past enemy unit have a 4+ Cove save as the mine are a unit so you can drop cover saves where you need them or drop them in front of a shooty enemy unit.
6-People shoot at spore mine.....I don't know why but they do.
7-AP3 Weapons that don't miss and see point 4.

If IG players could get the option to buy better rounds for their mortars you think we'd see more of them?

I also always take 3 Fast Attack slots with 3 Spore mines each if I'm going to use Biovores

I loved Biovores.

In 5e they are painfully lacking.

I never even played them prior to 4e, so it is not ALL sentinement.

Those points are a bit off too.

1: ok, the difference is slight, but ok.
2: no. cover saves + mine choice makes it a wash.
3: You draw the line after they fire but before the shot lands?
4: Yep! Only one that is valid.
5: That takes aim, and you still have to target a unit.
6: They are used to needing Target Priority, one of the better reasons to use these - wait a bit.
7: Assuming you play str3 mines that still give 4+ cover most times. see your point 3.

Missing a few huge drawbacks.

1: Sporemines are units. Units give KP 1/3 time.
2: Biovores no longer score. And they fire Heavy. Contest = you are lucky.
3: Targeting priority no longer exists, and getting even 3 spore mines to cover 50% of a unit is . . . lucky. (see bonus? 5) This also makes random movent that much worse - it is impossible to _actually_ plan.


And one hilareous bonus.

1: Spore Mines can Run!

Hell now that spore mines run....I have to use them. Just try them in a friendly game, I don't play cut throat 40K I play to have fun, the may not be the uber-est (yeah just made that up) unit, but they are as fun as hell.

More fun back in 3rd when my Khorne playing friend had to move back up the field and charge them . Yeah, blood for the blood god !

wyomingfox wrote:More fun back in 3rd when my Khorne playing friend had to move back up the field and charge them . Yeah, blood for the blood god !

LOL well put.

Like someone said, they can still shake it. Two shots, one hits, S10, AV12 is pretty much shaken. If you are shooting a BS anyway it is more effective than a pair of ST.

I would rather challenge your build philosophy.

If anyone is tempted to saw off venom cannon because they are weaker now they likely fall into the trap of thinking their is a thin dividing line between choices that are rubbish and those that are worth taking. actuallty there is a broad shelf of middling guns in many armies that have their uses and even situational advantages.

Taking carnifex as the topic example, too many people had gunfex dakkafex or nothing. While tempting to follow there were rewards for not building this way even uin 4th. Now with a ruleset edition change we can expect some optimised armies to change.

Now venom cannon are weaker, dont worry, you are now learning what a few of us already know. There is life to carnies outside the gun/dakkafex. the best way to find them is to take biovores funnily enough. Here is a unit that is clearly sub-par yet can be very useful if mastered. Learn to un-minimax and to do the best with what you have and soon you will understand how to make best use of the rest of your army. Too many people look at the optimised weaponry, deploy it exclusively and win on a huge dicefest, sure you might even win tournaments this way, but you dont really lean anything. Play a few games with the rough as well as the smooth and you will quickly adapt and see that there are uses for a lot of stuff out there.



Finally going back to your carnies. I would buy an extra one and give it magnetised or non standard weaponry. Game edition changes are largely predictable, you can see that some armies are going to lose out on certain general rules. Codex changes follow as often but usually differently timed and make huge unforseen changes. There is no way of knowing which units will be good in thr 5th edition Codex Tyranids. It would be a sghame to cut apart all your carnies, onjly to glue venom canon back on if GW decides they can now penetrate.

I think us Tyranid Players could agree to the following though in pertaining to 5th:

CC TMC
Sniper TMC
Warriors w/ Deathspitters
Genestealers
Guants WoN (objectives)
Zoanthropes (partial)

Space Marines...

Heh, sure,

space marines bleep, funny.

I was actually wondering what a Half Dakkafex might do, with a Strangler and a pair of Devourers?

I though about it my self. Good amount of wounding, would it be better than BS/TL-DS combo?...donno.

The real question in my mind has become, what can take out Transporting Tanks withoput getting its handed to it. If you can take it out in shooting the contents can be assaulted. DS and Devourers can take out Rhinos in high enough quantity...but not LR or Falcons or DF. For LR, I can't think of any but Zoanthropes... and they will just get assaulted. Take it out in CC and the contents get to beat on you in thier shooting or assault phases and you have no cover save against the contents as they are in the cover! Really bad for gene stealers. Really bad for just about anything that can't soke up alot of wounds. Maybe HT w/ psychic scream with running TG army. (That should give a -2 to those fricken pinning checks when I blow up thier transports.) Throw in running Zoanthropes in back of HT with psychic scream and that increases it to -5, also lowering chance of assaulting HT unit thanks to Horror. Its an idea

Nothing wrong with venom cannon a bit of imagination cannot fix.

S10 long range is still useful, put an instant kill on a warboss for a start. If you only shake a Russ or Vindicator and never do more it will keep the big gun silent for the two turns it takes for your stealers to close with the Imperial lines.

You get to shred battlewagons, which will become increasingly important especially with a new kit expected around Christmas.

If you dont take venom cannon the opponent will not have to take a lot of trouble in hiding Basilisks and Whirlwinds behind the sparse blocking terrain available, especially Basilisks.

Without venom cannon Vypers, Buggies and Sentinels can remain at range and punish your army unmolested with cheap effective firepower. You may have to detach some of your assault wave to hunt them down.

People, unblinker thyselves and see. Just because the venom cannon isnt blowing up Imperial tanks anymore doesn't mean its no good. It still does some things that nothing else in the army can, and you get increased use out of the barbed strangler that makes up the other half of the monster.

I'd have to disagree that the CC Nidzilla is the only competative list. Genestealer shock and warrior spam are very nasty. First round of ard boyz my list looked like this:

HQ: Warriors (5#, 200 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 200 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

HQ: Warriors (5#, 200 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 200 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Elite: Warriors (5#, 200 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 200 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Elite: Warriors (5#, 200 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 200 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Elite: Warriors (5#, 200 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 200 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Troops: Gaunt Brood (10#, 80 Pts)
10 Gaunt Brood @ 80 Pts
Spinefists; Without Number

Troops: Gaunt Brood (10#, 80 Pts)
10 Gaunt Brood @ 80 Pts
Spinefists; Without Number

Troops: Gaunt Brood (10#, 80 Pts)
10 Gaunt Brood @ 80 Pts
Spinefists; Without Number

Heavy Support: Carnifex (1#, 148 Pts)
1 Carnifex @ 148 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon

Heavy Support: Carnifex (1#, 148 Pts)
1 Carnifex @ 148 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon

Heavy Support: Zoanthrope (3#, 195 Pts)
3 Zoanthrope @ 195 Pts
Toxic Miasma; Psychic Scream; Warp Blast; Warp Field

Fast Attack: Warriors (5#, 255 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 255 Pts
Toxin Sacs +1 St; Winged; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Fast Attack: Warriors (5#, 255 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 255 Pts
Toxin Sacs +1 St; Winged; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Fast Attack: Warriors (5#, 255 Pts)
5 Warriors @ 255 Pts
Toxin Sacs +1 St; Winged; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

Total Roster Cost: 2496

40 str 6 templates that can potentially blow up lesser vehicals such as rhinos and the like. you got the zoans and carni's for AV. My hardest time was against deathwing DA with a bunch of landraiders but with the VC's I was still able to stop them from all shooting every turn. Once the zoans got in 18" I would use all three and focus firce a LR down every turn after. Admittedly this list is cheese and totally ruins footslogging anything. Saying Nidzilla is it is so wrong....

The problem with removing Venom Cannons from your army is that at that point you completely rely on Monstrous Creatures catching heavy vehicles and destroying them in close combat.

While that is certainly possible with the run rule, it still ain't easy and those heavy vehicles are still going to be firing and/or moving every turn as you try to close with them.

Venom Cannons still give you the chance to shake/stun/immobilize/destroy weapons of these heavy vehicles from a distance and they are the *only* thing in the army that really does so (Zoanthropes only have 18" range on their S10 blast).


IMHO, I think it is still essential to have at least a few S10 Venom Cannons in your army.

I agree with Yak. While VCs may not be as mandatory anymore, you'll miss them every time you need to put some long-range, high S firepower on a tank.