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After much hand-waving freakoutery, the codex is pretty much out, or at least, the important parts have been leaked

Sternguard, 6 guys in a HB razorback, with a sgt w/ plas pistol, powersword, 2 marines with plasma guns, and 3 marines with combi-plas bolters is gonna run in the mid 200 pts to field.

I'm just not seeing it. same pts cost for a SCORING unit of 10 tac marines with plas and multi-melta, with the sgt kitted out roughly the same..

so help me out guys, should I include a sternguard unit, or just add a 5th tac squad in a rhino?

A very killy unit, but it will take a good general to keep them alive. Space marines already have a problem with too few numbers, so reducing them further for special weapons better give a substantial increase in performance. Last edition I would have said yes, take them. This edition where cover, and volume of fire is king, I'm not so sure. It depends on the rest of the list I guess.

You can make them scoring, but it's up to you if the special character is worth the points.

Personally if you want cheap plasma, Inq stormtroopers aren't half bad. Their transport costs are high though.

I've been pondering this myself. As a new SM player, optimal doesn't jump off the page at me. I do think Sternguard's value is dependant on what else is in the list.

Example: If you're willing to spend the points on Kantor, all of your SG Vets become scoring. 2-3 squads of SG Vets seem extremely valuable since they are scoring and you can tool them up for a specific function, while maintaining their utility through special ammo.

I don't think I would give up bolters unless it was for a H-Flamer or Missile Launcher. Their special ammo gives them too much utility.

I'm leaning towards 6 man squad w/ 2 HF and 4 combi-meltas in a Razorback with Assault Canon. This squad screams utility to me, but may turn out to be cost prohibitive...

It's hard choices like this that make me like this codex.

Run sternguard with combi-meltas.

Never run them without bolters.

Never use flamers.

Have a nice day.

Stelek wrote:Run sternguard with combi-meltas.

Never run them without bolters.

Never use flamers.

Have a nice day.

What about heavy flamers? Those are pretty useful, though I suppose limited to drop pods or LR/Rhino transport. Though I can see why you'd not want to swap out their bolters, they're pretty versatile weapons as is.

Sternguard are scoring with Pedro. It isn't a huge issue. As for them being "worth the points"-maybe. Probably not against mech armies. Footslogging MEQs and TMCs yes.

Sternguard get 5 point meltaguns.

And bolters that do everything.

Sure it's 30 points a guy.

So? More than twice as good as a marine.

Don't skimp if you are gonna bring Sternguard, bring 2 or 3 units.

People will learn to fear them.

I imagine, though, that you'd have to play either aggressively or carefully with them. After all, they do die just as easily as any other space marine. So either go all out and hope to cause as much damage as you can, or be very careful and protective in their use, only bringing them to bear when you can be sure they will do insurmountable damage to their target, and not be exposed to serious counter measures.

I'd also imagine they're less useful against Marine armies than people will think. Oh, you have AP3 weapons? OK, we'll stick to cover. Oh, you have ammo that ignores cover? OK, we'll use our 3+ save. It's the same dilemma that Thousand Sons have, at least against MEQ. Note that I'll not doubt they're much better than TS against just about anything else, including vehicles. Still, if your opponent maneuvers incorrectly or you catch them off-guard, you're going to do some damage.

Stelek you havent posted that list over here, I think its about time. I was in the same boat about sternguard until I saw that list.

Been busy. I'll post it here.

I came to almost the same conclusion as Stelek. You don't want to add any regular special weapons after all you are losing the ammo you have spent 10pts to get. The value of Sternguard is that they are a one size fits all unit, especially with combi-weapons. Ideally you want two combi-flamers and two or more with combi-meltas. You truly then have a squad that can shoot up anythng except a Monolith, horde, monster, various infantry, heavy tank, the works.

The real trick will be how to use them, my initial assessment is as a single unit fo six, no more no less. This gives you enough flamer and melta to work with. They are the odd job squad, you look at what the opponent has on the table and see where you are lacking, or where you want an overwhelming strength. That is now the squads intended primary role for the battle. The rest is just opportunistic shooting; possibly at a completely different type of target as circumstances, or desperation, allows.

Where Stelek is wrong is over taking more than one unit, and the no flamer doctrine, unless he means flamer flamer rather than combi-flamer. I concur there. Anyway, two or three units means two or three units of 'upgraded tacticals' that cost as much as two regular tacticals apiece. there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sternguard are your elite stopgap, not your meat and potato unit. You must rely instead on correct selection of tacticals for your line if you wish to fight this way you will get a far better return for the points. Also Sternguard are by no means a mandatory choice, other elites are just as good if not better. If you do insist on spamming out Sternguard take techmarines and use bolster defences on the cover terrain you have the Sternguard set up in. The majority of the time they will be waiting for the enemy to come to them. In case you dont know the techmarine with the Thunderfire cannon is still allowed to help out here.

I like Sternguard, they are a flavourful unit rather than the old bland veterans and fitr their role well. They hang around 'at the back' without agenda and fill the holes in the attack plan as they appear. Simple as.

Sternguard are like 40K's version of Maxwell House. They're good to the last bolter. Never, ever, ever give them stormbolters. Never give them a special weapon- load up on combi-weapons if you want that, and use them judicuosly. But honestly I'm thinking of taking them in 10's at their basic TO&E and firing special ammunition all day long. Stelek has something going, I think its Sternguard with Combi-Meltas and Vulkan to twin link them. Also not a bad 1-2 combo. Given the 1 shot nature of combi-weapons, I imagine its comparable or even better than Pedro making them scoring.

Edit: Its Vanguard that are the disappointers from this go-round.

The Combi weapons are not a waste of points? Or is it just a really handy way to take a bunch of them?

Seems that you'd want to use them much more agressively than 'hang at the back' firefighters. I'm thinking throw them in drop pods/rhinos, hurl them right into the nastiest point of conflict, blow away the opposition with their special ammo, and let basic Marines exploit the gap. Sternguard are your 'hammer' unit. They set your opponent reeling and your other stuff just keeps them off balance.

The problem I have with minimal squads that lurk on the field is they're way to expensive to risk them so easily.

In my opinion, the combi-weapons aren't a waste of points, but they're not required either. I wouldn't toss the Sternguard up front, nor would I leave them at the back. I'd throw them somewhere in the middle if I could.

Seems to me you are paying 25 points for the special ammo on a 'chassis' that is T4 W1 3+ (far as I know), you are going to want to shoot it as much as you can. Not that a near guaranteed tank kill is not handy.

If taking multiple squads you could always take one with, and one without.

a 5 points a pop, sprinkling in some combi-meltas usually wouldn't be a full waste of points.

sourclams wrote:Seems that you'd want to use them much more agressively than 'hang at the back' firefighters. I'm thinking throw them in drop pods/rhinos, hurl them right into the nastiest point of conflict,

Breton wrote: I wouldn't toss the Sternguard up front, nor would I leave them at the back. I'd throw them somewhere in the middle if I could.

You are thinking geography rather than tactics. Front, middle, back whatever, they are the tactical backstop. Aka: "I havent forseen this but I had held back some Sternguard to deal with the unforseen". whatever held back' literally means is up to you. In a Drop Pod in orbit, in the missle of the front lines in a reinfiorced terrain feature or waiting behind the lines are all options. The only comment to make here is that nothing in the unit makes them better at resisting fire or a smackdown any better than the rest of the battle brothers, so I would advise caution over agression

If you play cautiously and try to use Sternguard as a response force, they're going to be shot to pieces because defensively they're no better than regular marines at 166% of the price.

Stating the obvious here, but Lysander is pretty awesome with them even though he lacks a gun himself. He should also scare most close combat opponents. I'm thinking a Lysander+Kantor+Sternguard "Sons of Dorn" list could be pretty interesting.

I think Kantor opens up a lot of options simply by granting +1 attack. Kantor + Dreadnoughts, Kantor + Terminators, Kantor + assault marines all sound like things that would be pretty 'meh' normally but I'd be willing to test out.

Orlanth wrote:

Where Stelek is wrong is over taking more than one unit, and the no flamer doctrine, unless he means flamer flamer rather than combi-flamer. I concur there. Anyway, two or three units means two or three units of 'upgraded tacticals' that cost as much as two regular tacticals apiece. there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sternguard are your elite stopgap, not your meat and potato unit.

I disagree. Id rather have one sterguard unit than two tacticals if faced with anything short of orks in the open.

There are a lot of things Sternguard can really hurt that tacs cant even touch. Of course you still take a few tacticals with them. If you take one unit of six its just going to get wiped out and/or have little effect on the game.

Orlanth wrote:

there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

I think most ultra competitive lists take the complete opposite view. What is very good? Max MCs, max land raiders, max orks with max lootas, max wave serpents, max obliterators etc. In this game you either spam it or leave it at home if you want a powerful list.

Devastator Squads are equally expensive, while possibly benefiting (more) from cover. Plus they (the Sternguard) take an Elite spot.

What I like about the new book is the mix between Tac marines at 15 points and Terminators at 40. Sternguard at 25, and correct me if I am wrong but for ~30 points Honour Guard at 2+ (like a Terminator) with an extra attack, a Bolter and a Power Weapon. Or something like that. And they are special enough that if you want them you have to pick a certain HQ.

Honor Guard are Base 2, 1 for BP and Power+ weapon (assuming you don't go Relic Blade), Artificer armor, a nasty nasty champion, and the option for auxilliary grenade launchers. Check em out.

Can you put Storm Shields in there? Or no.

Someone in the other thread pointed out Sternguard have two attacks base. So if we are voting here, I say 'yes', they are worth their points. Combi-weapons optional. I would never give them Special Weapons unless you take multiple squads and really, really like Melta and Plasmaguns.

Nope, no Storm Shields available to Sternguard.

*hurumph* Thanks.

I don't know that more than 4(ish) combi-meltas are required. Anything over that is just... points spent.

But yes, otherwise Sternguard are chewy-goodness.

Given the relative lack of mobility and vehicles being difficult to kill, I can't think of a better buy for 20 points.

What can I get, really?

If I'm firing at tanks I'd rather be sure they are dead than only fire 'enough' statistically speaking.

It's not so much the 20 pts in a vacuum , but the practice of loading up "just because you can". Do that across 3 squads and suddenly 20 pts are 60... and so on and so on. If you've built your list, have pts left over and can't find something else to buy - then by all means, load up on combi's.