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Let me double down on Stelek's appreciation of sourclam's statement. It's completely true.

F- Balance. Useless, overrated attribute. The best lists are those which overwhelm and break the enemy's ability to deal with some facet of the list. Sure, this means you've probably got a weakness vs. the anti-you spam list, but if you chose your spam right you won't face that list after round 1, and there's always the chance its being run by a scrub and you'll win anyway.

People always talk about tactical marines as being balanced. They aren't, they are generalists who do everything so-so.

The thing about Sternguard is they are balanced. It doesn't matter what they drop next to because they have an answer to it. Give them combi-meltas, use their pod to protect them from dangerous shots, and give them a librarian so they can get out of combat and you have a great unit that can threaten any target. If that isn't the personification of the space marines then I don't know what is.

950 points. That's *it*. You don't need deathwind launchers. You don't need locator beacons. A drop pod would have to scatter, literally, 9 inches or more to be out of melta range. Cut the bloat from your proposed list and you'll see how economic Sternguard really are. 950 points of kill-anything-dead-in-one-turn-of-shooting. That's plenty of points left over for 2 librarians and kitted out tactical squads for holding objectives. Point me at another 950 points of marines with that much utility.

20 termies with 4 chainfists and 4 cyclone missile launchers are also equally utilitarian.

cypher wrote:

950 points. That's *it*. You don't need deathwind launchers. You don't need locator beacons. A drop pod would have to scatter, literally, 9 inches or more to be out of melta range. Cut the bloat from your proposed list and you'll see how economic Sternguard really are. 950 points of kill-anything-dead-in-one-turn-of-shooting. That's plenty of points left over for 2 librarians and kitted out tactical squads for holding objectives. Point me at another 950 points of marines with that much utility.

20 termies with 4 chainfists and 4 cyclone missile launchers are also equally utilitarian.

Except they aren't nearly as good when shooting as Sternguard are, and TH/Storm Shield units are better than they are in assault.

40kenthusiast wrote:Let me double down on Stelek's appreciation of sourclam's statement. It's completely true.

F- Balance. Useless, overrated attribute. The best lists are those which overwhelm and break the enemy's ability to deal with some facet of the list. Sure, this means you've probably got a weakness vs. the anti-you spam list, but if you chose your spam right you won't face that list after round 1, and there's always the chance its being run by a scrub and you'll win anyway.

More excellent advice.

Balance works only for your 'over the top' army, in that it can handle everything someone throws at it except the anti-yourlist list.

MC and tanks can be annihilated by meltagun armies, but those armies cannot stop hordes.

Vice versa, heavy bolters can stop hordes but those armies cannot stop tanks nor MC.

Just examples of what I mean--this IS a balanced list, in that it can handle anything BUT it's also overwhelming.

I think alot of people get confused by 'balance' and what tournament players mean by it.

Balanced and fluffy are definitely hard to do and always result in compromises--my DH army at Vegas tried both, and had serious weaknesses...but in the end, it was a gunline oriented towards putting out lots of heavy bolter shots and as long as I didn't face a LR rush early I'd probably do well.

I did in the end dodge that bullet by 1 point and 1 table over (Froggage ended up playing the LR list instead of me).

Just an example...

Watcher in the Dark:

Tactical Squads are balanced. You get what you pay for, and no more/no less. They're not as strong, offensively, as the same number of Sternguard. Of course, you can get about 50% more Tactical than Sternguard. All that translates into for Sternguard is a 50% increase in their shooting quality and quantity of close combat attacks, but not a commiserate increase in the unit's quantity of wounds or quality of T/Sv.

I'm not saying that Sternguard aren't a good unit, but multiplying that cost reduces your overall balance: you get a force that hits hard but crumbles quickly.

cypher's force of two Terminator squads also popped into my head, and if taken as two squads, you still have an Elite spot open. You could even spend that slot on Sternguard...

My own preference for those points would be:

Devastator Squad
10 Marines
w/Two Heavy Bolters, Two Multi-Meltas
Drop Pod
265

Devastator Squad
10 Marines
w/Two Heavy Bolters, Two Multi-Meltas
Drop Pod
265

Devastator Squad
10 Marines
w/Four Missile Launchers
Drop Pod
265

Dreadnought
w/Heavy Flamethrower, Drop Pod
150

Get rid of the drop pods, Devs are crippled by them. Crippled. The last thing you want with heavy weapons is to deploy closer to the enemy while counting as moving.

Get rid of the multimeltas. The tactical paradox of a 12" ideal threat range and being unable to move and shoot neuters them. Take lascannons if you're serious about anti-armor.

Now you've got a gunline that will do a fair to good job against horde, a fair job against light armor, and a fair to poor job against heavy armor. Unfortunately the dreadnought will probably be shot off the board or crushed in close combat before it does anything, as typically happens with lone dreadnoughts. You could take 2 more dreads, but they still probably won't do anything.

Or you could take 30 sternguard who are excellent against horde, excellent against armor, and as an added bonus always get the first shot.

The Terminators are stronger in close combat but are poorer in shooting. Their defenses are better but I personally prefer the 'make your enemy dead before they can do anything' defense.

And this coming from a guy with 30 very nicely painted SW termis.

I swear you don't play the same game the rest of us do.

sourclams:

I thought you wanted to see 950 points of Space Marines with the same utility as three units of Sternguard, rather than complete armies.

The configuration of 945pts of Marines that I have presented offers high effect against hordes, heavy armour, and mixed forces.

Part of the utility of the Marines I have shown you is that they leave two Elite spots open. Myself, I'd fill them with Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods, and land the Dreadnoughts in the first wave, with the Devastators landing in the second wave. Depending on what other points are available, it might be something to take a couple of Terminator squads with attendant Land Raiders. Teleport the Terminators in, and let the Land Raiders tote a Tactical squad or two onto the objectives.

Multi-Meltas are much more serious anti-armour than Lascannons if you're planning on using Drop Pods with Devastators. No Drop Pods, then Lascannons all the way, because you'll start 24" further away from the enemy.

Aside from being twenty points cheaper, which would be handy for some spare Deathwind Launchers, they have a Melta effect out to 12". The 6" Melta effect range on Melta Guns and Combi-Meltas is a joke unless you can consistently fire 3 or 4 a turn, preferably while moving 12"+. When it comes to a S8 AP1 hit, the 24" range of a Multi-Melta has two advantages, 6" on the maximum effective range of a Melta Gun if you go charging headfirst at the enemy (supposing, of course, you aren't in difficult terrain), and keeping a 12"+ gap between you and the enemy.

Add in the Signum, and possibly the Forgefather Vulkan, and you have a weapon that will crack open heavy armour like massed Battlewagons or massed Landraiders, ready to have the contents hammered with Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles, as well as burned and stomped by Dreadnoughts.

Just a small point... the argument of 300+ points dedicated to a sternguard unit with much more survivability ....

The eldar closest equivalent 300+ points of fire dragons with a wave serpent. Seems to be the concensus this is a "must have" unit for the eldar. We are talking slightly more points for sternguard with more flexibility and survivability.

I think the sternguard are a very viable build for an army and 3 is not unreasonable especially if you take the commander that makes them a scoring unit.

I don't have the codex but how about this for a generic list...

1 Scout with sniper rifles and super sergeant... 200 pts.

3 Sterngaurd 900 pts

Commander that makes them scoring... 200 pts ???

Librarian for teleporting 100 pts ???

I have 1400 points locked up at this point...

Add 3 transports ( the librarian is a costly transport) 105 pts.

Two tac squads 350 pts (flamer, missile or spend a bit more)

I come out to 1855 I have two troops and 3 elites... is it small? yes but I can turn this into a very quick and lethal game.

Play a KP scenario... I have 11 KP on the board. 3 of them with combi-meltas are my anti-tank. I have a scout unit that can drop
high toughness creatures with 8 sniper rifles and 1 heavy bolter with the poison blast marker and 6 BS if I want it. I have two generalist tacs one sets up in a good firing position, the other drop pods. I have two sternguard in drop pods and one sternguard in
with the librarian. I think I have a good chance to get more kill points than my opponent with the instant lethality of the sterngard dropping in on turn one where I can either instantly reduce their killing power by taking out vehicles on turn one or taking out a nasty shooty unit of lets say ork lootas. Even if I consider this what 4 KPs, if I properly drop them in, I can force as side skirmish while he has to deal with the 2 full sternguard and perhaps the captain off on his flank. Meanwhile I have one mobile sternguard with the librarian and a tac squad and a scout squad picking them off at range and one more tac squad to drop in as a reserve.

Same army with the one objective in each zone... hmmm I drop two sternguard onto the objective in your zone again massive mayhem in your area with two sternguard (and a tac following next turn) and if I want, the 3rd sternguard in your zone all on turn one... I can probably automatically make this a game where I win or we draw as 3 sternguard, a captain, a librarian and a tac squad should waste a lot of your effort to get me out of your deployment zone.

Multiple objectives... hmmm two drop pods into the neutral zone or where your artillery park is set up. Not a healthy situation to turn it into a get me off the objectives right away.

It is a VERY viable option for a build and will cause fits to armies that count on sit back and shoot or on foot armies that want to assault since I will make it a 3-D battlefield before they know what hit them.

It does have a weakness but then almost every army does... 65 models for 1850... almost 30 pt average per model and other than the commanders 3+ AC and no invulnerables. By drop podding, I guarantee my first shot at you is an intact sternguard so I have to pick the right target the turn I drop in because I will expect a lot of return fire right away.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:
I thought you wanted to see 950 points of Space Marines with the same utility as three units of Sternguard, rather than complete armies.

The configuration of 945pts of Marines that I have presented offers high effect against hordes, heavy armour, and mixed forces.

I'm really trying to be polite and respect your opinion, but there's the offchance that somebody might read your post and believe you when you say that it's 'good', or something.

First off, multimeltas are slowed. Flat out slowed. You can say drop pod + multimelta = good, but then I can say that 2 + 2 = waffles.

Let me explain the scenario to you:

You land your 3 pods.

30 marines get out.

18 of them shoot at something, because HAHAHA 12 OF THEM ARE SETTING UP THEIR GUNS!

Whatever you're shooting at makes its 4+ armor or cover save, or is T5, or is a vehicle and ignores all of it HAHA ARMOR HAHAHA, and ideally you're looking at maybe 8 things dead. On average. 800 points of marines land and kill 8 things. Think about that for a second. But you've got your guns set up! Awesome! Ready to rock next turn!

Next turn the vehicles back up, or shimmy to the left/right, or just sit there knowing what's about to happen with their guns cocked and primed.

Now here's the big question: How many marines can an "average" army kill from 12" away (we did say the multimeltas were going to be effective, right? right?) in one turn of shooting and assaulting? The answer I would guess would be somewhere between 15 and 25. Flamers, heavy weapons, tanks, everything that you didn't manage to kill with your 36 bolter shots get to blast away with impunity. The assault units that you didn't kill royally rock your world because your guys 1. didn't kill enough and 2. have 1 attack base.

But this is viable, right? 800+ points well spent. Money in the bank. You don't need the ability to WTFPWN 3 units of your choice on landing, you can do that *next* turn. *Nobody* can kill 15 marines in one turn, right? They're not going to assault you, right? But-sourclams-sternguard-have-the-same-vulnerabilites! Yeah, except sternguard also nuked 3 landraiders on drop. Sternguard also-also can shoot to pieces three monstrous creatures on drop. Sternguard also-also-also can blow away the three squads in the middle of the table and now your enemy is forced to choose between killing Sternguard and meeting the other 1100 points of marines pounding up from the deployment zone. Sternguard aren't standing around with their ceramite thumbs up their fundaments setting up their guns while they get ripped apart.

Yes, okay, this is theory hammer on my part, but it's pretty basic theoryhammer. You have multimeltas with a 12" threat range. On the first or second turn, your opponent will probably not have moved more than 12" and their force will be relatively untouched. Your heavy weapons need a full turn to set up before they're able to shoot. Devastators are very 'meh' at short range firefights or in the assault. So what happens when 30 devastators are staring at an untouched army of XXXXXXX while putting their guns on bipods? Right. They get devastated next turn. I'd be quietly amazed if you managed anything better than immobilizing one vehicle.

sourclams:

I hope you're not trying very hard to be respectful, because it seems like you could do better.

DAaddict wrote:

It is a VERY viable option for a build and will cause fits to armies that count on sit back and shoot or on foot armies that want to assault since I will make it a 3-D battlefield before they know what hit them.

Exactly. The only thing your opponent can do is leave his army in reserves. That's it. No matter what else he does, he leaves *something* vulnerable. The only defense against Sternguard is to castle up and pray that they won't kill more than their worth on the turn they land. I'm currently becoming pretty intrigued by a Kor'sorro Khan +drop podding sternguard list just for the option of outflanking if I see my opponent going for the 'corner castle'.

I hope you're not trying very hard to be respectful, because it seems like you could do better.

I'm sorry, honestly, but people come to this forum to look at what works and what doesn't work in 40k. I don't see any possible way for multi meltas in devastator squads to work out of drop pods.

Sternguard are great against certain armies, don't get me wrong. If they are playing against certain armies (LR spam, probably Nidzilla, possibly horde orks, etc), then they can do serious damage on the drop. Problem is, you HAVE to cripple them on the drop. When you have 30 of them, you have a slightly better chance of doing so. You also leave yourself wide open to retaliation next turn if you don't make that crippling hit.

Consider against Marines in cover. You drop and fire 60 AP3 shots. Roughly 40 will hit (note about 10 will overheat, and you lose say one Guard from each squad), about 20 will wound, and about 10 men will die. That's one full squad, or spread out damage among squads, again at the cost of 3 of your own guard. If you're firing at Plague Marines, then that's 13 wounds, 7 go through cover, 3-4 die. You could fire your combimeltas and increase that count a bit, but then your one-shot weapons are gone.

Not too bad for one round of shooting from 30 guys. But now your 30 (27) guys are within rapid-fire range of your opponent's whole army, or close enough for Marines, or easily within heavy weapon range of heavier weapons. Against Chaos, you get lashed and plasma-cannoned or Vindicatored. Again, your Sternguard aren't very tough.

Against some armies, yes, your one drop will devastate them. People who rely on LR spam, lots of Nidzillas, possibly even horde orks or something, are going to be hurting. But remember, they're still bolter weapons, and there's always some drawback - either wound on a 2+, ignore cover, or ignore 3+ armor, but odds are most models will be able to take at least one of those three to their advantage.

I'm not seeing the fear of sterngaurd in the set up you guys are talking about versus hordes. Without flamers, they don't scare my orks much. 10 of them are going to kill what, 6-7 orks? So 30 could cripple a mob of 30 orks. But I get 3 or 4 orks for each sterngaurd. So next turn I'm either going to shoot you to bits with the remainding 2 mobs or assault and murderize you with them.
Is there an obvious answer to this I'm not seeing?
I don't think my plague marines would be too scared of the AP3 bolters either- they're still T5 with feel no pain. The meltas, sure, but then you only get one shot. There's still going to be plague marines left next turn and they are probably going to paddle you in close combat.
Not saying Sterngaurd are crap or anything, just that the spam is less scary than advertised, to my mind.

sourclams:

Thank you for trying harder. I appreciate it.

Now let's talk about your analysis of the 945pts that I posted. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that only the 945pts of Space Marines lands.

That makes it four Drop Pods. Three Pods with Devastators, one containing a Dreadnought.

Thirty Marines and one Dreadnought disembark.

Eighteen Marines do not shoot anything. Why would they? Why would you land Devastators within 18" of an enemy. You want them between 19"-24", optimal Multi-Melta range. They're Devastators, you land them close to positions from which they will be able to use their range and firepower to support your Tactical Squads.

So 30 Marines run hellbent for cover.

At least one Dreadnought does land nice and close to some sort of infantry shooters or a tank. Remember that although, for the sake of argument that Dreadnought is dropping with only three Devastator Squads, the behaviour of these 945pts of Devastators must be understood in relation to however many points of other Space Marines are in the same force, as well as whatever might be on the ground waiting for them.

So we have eleven units: Four Drop Pods, One Dreadnought, Six Combat-Squaded Devastators. Ignoring special rules like Target Lock or We Are Legion, the enemy will need at least eleven units to engage them all, and at least in the case of the Devastators will need to deal with cover.

The Dreadnought, equipped to deal with any target of opportunity, maybe damages a tank, frags a light vehicle, or decimates a squads (remember, decimation is 1/10 killed).

So 945pts of Marines has landed, and only 150 points, putatively, has hurt anything. So what? Another 690 is now in position to lay the hurt on whatever is on the board, and survived the onslaught of the other units, possibly other Dreadnoughts, possibly Tactical squads, whatever else is available. If the points are available then giving some of the Drop Pods Deathwind Launchers will be very handy for taking points that have served one purpose and giving them another. A well balanced unit, you might say.

So yes, quite different from the Sternguard. With the Sternguard you get a maximum of nine units who need to land within 14" of something dangerous, and who need to disembark within the charge range of anything in the game while being mediocre at close combat.

Maybe you do have special ammunition. Between twenty and ten shots, depending on how you decide to combat squad.

You can deny an enemy cover. But you can't deny armour and invulnerable saves at the same time (unless you shell out for that Librarian).

You can deny Sv4+, but anything with that sort of armour will also be using cover, or come in such numbers that a few casualties are to be expected (rather like denying cover).

You can wound models on a 2+. Again, armour saves, cover saves, range, etc.

You can deny Sv3+, but then invulnerable saves, cover, and Gets Hot take the sting off of that.

You can use Melta Shots, but they're one use, and cover saves, particularly from smoke, are damned handy. If you get the first turn against a drop podding army, you let them drop into a smoke shrouded battlefield and let Dog sort it out.

Really, tzeentchling said it well enough, but it's worth considering in terms of the number of units you can engage, as well as how well you can engage them, and how well you can re-engage survivors, either by luck (misses, failure to wound, etc) or by planning (cover saves, troop choices, not sitting around waiting for the first wave of pods, etc).

If you have nine units, six of them Sternguard with Combi-Meltas, then you can engage up to nine more units than otherwise relatively ineffectively, and or less more effectively until diminishing returns set in around three units.

You should do well if the enemy isn't (1) numerous both in units and models, (2) good at close combat, (3) possessed of an invulnerable saving throw, (4) a Sv2+, (5) hiding in vehicles, and (6) politely castled up where you can effectively concentrate such short-ranged firepower.

A unit of Sternguard is definitely a viable and useful Elite choice and would do well in any army. Unless you can plump out the numbers by placing your army on foot, and taking Pedro and/or Librarians, then two or three units of Sternguard probably aren't worth the points.

Da Boss wrote:I'm not seeing the fear of sterngaurd in the set up you guys are talking about versus hordes. Without flamers, they don't scare my orks much. 10 of them are going to kill what, 6-7 orks? So 30 could cripple a mob of 30 orks. But I get 3 or 4 orks for each sterngaurd. So next turn I'm either going to shoot you to bits with the remainding 2 mobs or assault and murderize you with them.
Is there an obvious answer to this I'm not seeing?
I don't think my plague marines would be too scared of the AP3 bolters either- they're still T5 with feel no pain. The meltas, sure, but then you only get one shot. There's still going to be plague marines left next turn and they are probably going to paddle you in close combat.
Not saying Sterngaurd are crap or anything, just that the spam is less scary than advertised, to my mind.

The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

The PM get a 4+ save then they die. If there are lots of PM, there probably aren't lots of vehicles so it's safe to cook off the meltaguns and fry 'em.

I am not sure why you think PM beating the sternguard in CC is a good thing. I want to lose a few marines, so I can run away and shoot you again.

tzeentchling wrote:Sternguard are great against certain armies, don't get me wrong. If they are playing against certain armies (LR spam, probably Nidzilla, possibly horde orks, etc), then they can do serious damage on the drop. Problem is, you HAVE to cripple them on the drop. When you have 30 of them, you have a slightly better chance of doing so. You also leave yourself wide open to retaliation next turn if you don't make that crippling hit.

Consider against Marines in cover. You drop and fire 60 AP3 shots. Roughly 40 will hit (note about 10 will overheat, and you lose say one Guard from each squad), about 20 will wound, and about 10 men will die. That's one full squad, or spread out damage among squads, again at the cost of 3 of your own guard. If you're firing at Plague Marines, then that's 13 wounds, 7 go through cover, 3-4 die. You could fire your combimeltas and increase that count a bit, but then your one-shot weapons are gone.

Not too bad for one round of shooting from 30 guys. But now your 30 (27) guys are within rapid-fire range of your opponent's whole army, or close enough for Marines, or easily within heavy weapon range of heavier weapons. Against Chaos, you get lashed and plasma-cannoned or Vindicatored. Again, your Sternguard aren't very tough.

Against some armies, yes, your one drop will devastate them. People who rely on LR spam, lots of Nidzillas, possibly even horde orks or something, are going to be hurting. But remember, they're still bolter weapons, and there's always some drawback - either wound on a 2+, ignore cover, or ignore 3+ armor, but odds are most models will be able to take at least one of those three to their advantage.

I guess the real question is, against those marines...if I've taken two squads down considerably, your return fire isn't going to be that impressive.

Chaos can try to lash, that's what the librarians are for. Of course the new hood is essentially worthless, but you still have it against bad players.

The real problem with lash is how I deploy my guys around my drop pods. You shouldn't be able to get everyone under the templates, and if I still have cover...it's really not that bad. Sure it's annoying, but what can you do?

If I kill your troops on the drop, and you kill my elites--fair trade. Is it an objective mission? Well good luck dropping 20 marines with 9 oblits.

Sternguard aren't tough, they're marine-tough. Sure everyone can beat on 'em. Since plasmaguns are going away in most armies, they aren't as bad off as you might think.

I think your analysis of what most models will be able to do versus the special rounds of sternguard is way off. They are built to kill everything. Not some things, everything.

Stelek wrote:I think your analysis of what most models will be able to do versus the special rounds of sternguard is way off. They are built to kill everything. Not some things, everything.

And I think you're over-estimating the effect that the sternguard will have on the drop. Like I said, they're pretty damn good, and they do have the tools to deal reasonably well with anything that comes their way, but the army is super reliant on them, and smart opponents will realize that and deal with them appropriately. Whether that's sacrificing squads to the drop or what. As I said before, it still comes down to, can you cause enough damage on the drop to significantly disrupt/destroy your opponent. Most times you can, probably, sometimes not.

On the other hand, you (Stelek) have obviously gotten to playtest the new codex for a while, I imagine, and have seen firsthand how they actually perform. I can only make conjecture based on my experience against similar units/armies/playing styles. Maybe I'm wrong! Maybe the army is absolutely devastating against everyone. It just seems to me that you're positing it as an IWIN army regardless of the opponent or the two players' tactical skills, and I disagree with that. I'm trying to point out just some reasonable counters that I'd think opponents might try to take to not be annihilated on the drop, based on my past experience, and that 30 Sternguard are not the be-all and end-all of Marine lists, and not even right in all lists.

It isn't an IWIN army.

It's simply very powerful, and because of Kill Points--it makes it difficult to include "suicide" squads or even want to sacrifice anything.

The nature of 5th changes lists and play styles.

What I'm trying to say is, don't run small amounts of sternguard. Make an army built around them instead.

Nowhere did I say it's the be-all or end-all of marine lists. There are alot of armies you can run, most of them effective, in the marine codex.

Fair enough. Didn't quite get that tone in yours and sourclam's posts before this, so thanks.

Having Drop Pods and being able to kill everything means that they win in 2 out of the 3 phases of the turn. The only phase where they don't PWN is in melee.

I agree that a strong list can be built around them.

What happens to the army when faced with another drop podding army? Or a shooty daemon list? Or an army with everything kept in reserve? (actually that would probably be better for the sternguard to deal piecemeal, although nasty tanks able to come on more than 18 inches away from said units could work, so scratch that as reliable anyway).

I think the army would suffer greatly when several of the sternguard units are forced to arrive before there are any enemy to kill.

Stelek wrote:
The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

Stelek,
Based on looking at pictures of the drop pod with doors open, the guts block LOS through the vehicle for most infantry models. So are you refering to deploying the DP within 2" of each other and grouping the sternguard adjacent to the gaps and on the otherside of the enemy

BeefyG wrote:Having Drop Pods and being able to kill everything means that they win in 2 out of the 3 phases of the turn. The only phase where they don't PWN is in melee.

I agree that a strong list can be built around them.

What happens to the army when faced with another drop podding army? Or a shooty daemon list? Or an army with everything kept in reserve? (actually that would probably be better for the sternguard to deal piecemeal, although nasty tanks able to come on more than 18 inches away from said units could work, so scratch that as reliable anyway).

I think the army would suffer greatly when several of the sternguard units are forced to arrive before there are any enemy to kill.

Well there are going to be some army builds that a Sternguard centered list will have some difficulty dealing with. Dawn of War deployment can also give such an army trouble if the opponent goes second because only a fool would put anything on the board for them to shoot at.

This is not to say that the list is a bad list, just a one trick list, which is typically the story for most armies out there. The key is to make that one trick so ruthlessly effective that it becomes exceedingly difficult for your opponents to defend against it. I definitely think the mass Sternguard drop assault will be one of the more effective lists to come out of the Marine dex. Does it have weaknesses? Certainly, but it doesn't have many and those it does have are not ones that most armies will be able to capitalize on.

Stelek wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Skepticism

The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

The PM get a 4+ save then they die. If there are lots of PM, there probably aren't lots of vehicles so it's safe to cook off the meltaguns and fry 'em.

I am not sure why you think PM beating the sternguard in CC is a good thing. I want to lose a few marines, so I can run away and shoot you again.

Okay, deathwind launchers. Assuming the scatter doesn't get you, they'll help the sterngaurd go from gutting a mob to obliterating it. I still don't think they're gonna do more than that, and if you split them over 3 mobs then each mob is gonna have enough left to eat you.
Pod interlocking, fair one, that's a nastly tactic. I'd want to see it in play before I say one way or another whether I could counter it effectively.

The Plague Marines T5 and 4+ save is better than what a lot of people are gonna get. 900 points of plague marines could take 900 points of sterngaurd I reckon, but I suppose I'll wait and see.

wyomingfox wrote:

Stelek wrote:
The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

Stelek,
Based on looking at pictures of the drop pod with doors open, the guts block LOS through the vehicle for most infantry models. So are you refering to deploying the DP within 2" of each other and grouping the sternguard adjacent to the gaps and on the otherside of the enemy

All I have to be able to see is any part of you from the eyes of the models I'm bringing.

It really is not difficult to deploy and draw LOS for 2 guys on the backend.

If I'm deploying entirely on the far side of it, it's still not difficult--the doors when dropped don't block LOS, so I put the Librarian in the worst LOS blocking spot and pile the sternguard on other side of him.

ihockert wrote:

BeefyG wrote:Having Drop Pods and being able to kill everything means that they win in 2 out of the 3 phases of the turn. The only phase where they don't PWN is in melee.

I agree that a strong list can be built around them.

What happens to the army when faced with another drop podding army? Or a shooty daemon list? Or an army with everything kept in reserve? (actually that would probably be better for the sternguard to deal piecemeal, although nasty tanks able to come on more than 18 inches away from said units could work, so scratch that as reliable anyway).

I think the army would suffer greatly when several of the sternguard units are forced to arrive before there are any enemy to kill.

Well there are going to be some army builds that a Sternguard centered list will have some difficulty dealing with. Dawn of War deployment can also give such an army trouble if the opponent goes second because only a fool would put anything on the board for them to shoot at.

This is not to say that the list is a bad list, just a one trick list, which is typically the story for most armies out there. The key is to make that one trick so ruthlessly effective that it becomes exceedingly difficult for your opponents to defend against it. I definitely think the mass Sternguard drop assault will be one of the more effective lists to come out of the Marine dex. Does it have weaknesses? Certainly, but it doesn't have many and those it does have are not ones that most armies will be able to capitalize on.

Actually one of the best tactics for 5th edition (that most players refuse to learn and use) is to deploy nothing on the table, no matter what.

You never HAVE to deploy unless a stupid ard boyz scenario says so.

That does hurt Sternguard, but you can if you wish run more drop pod units (increasing your kill point count) so the sternguard can drop in entirely in the second wave.

I believe that's what people will do in the second phase evolution of this list, when people start keeping their army in reserve against sternguard.

Da Boss wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Skepticism

The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

The PM get a 4+ save then they die. If there are lots of PM, there probably aren't lots of vehicles so it's safe to cook off the meltaguns and fry 'em.

I am not sure why you think PM beating the sternguard in CC is a good thing. I want to lose a few marines, so I can run away and shoot you again.

Okay, deathwind launchers. Assuming the scatter doesn't get you, they'll help the sterngaurd go from gutting a mob to obliterating it. I still don't think they're gonna do more than that, and if you split them over 3 mobs then each mob is gonna have enough left to eat you.
Pod interlocking, fair one, that's a nastly tactic. I'd want to see it in play before I say one way or another whether I could counter it effectively.

The Plague Marines T5 and 4+ save is better than what a lot of people are gonna get. 900 points of plague marines could take 900 points of sterngaurd I reckon, but I suppose I'll wait and see.

Orks have a hard time 'eating' Sternguard. The sternguard units (pod, sternguard shooting, sternguard CC) do alot of damage to Orks.

If you don't kill them, odds are they'll hit and run successfully--and then whatever you have left, is dead.

Without templates (I did run two heavy flamers and two combi-flamers, and found them only useful against Orks AND they forced me to be TOO aggressive with my very expensive troops...so I dropped them) sternguard do alot of damage to Orks. Making it worse is this simple fact:

You cannot start the Ork horde in reserve, you will NEVER win objective games with the footsloggers that way.

So, you start on the board.

Since you know the Sternguard can light you up, you don't deploy inside terrain (it limits your mobility so why do it?).

Then the marine player drops a tactical squad or suicide assault squad flamer unit and keeps his sternguard off table for a 2nd turn drop.

It's a serious pain for Orks, because then you better have a KFF to protect against tactical squads who will do the same damage as the sternguard do.

See, the marines can decide what is going in their first wave WHEN THEY DROP. Not when they deploy!

That is what makes them so damn deadly.

Oh and if you really want to kick people when they're down, use speeders with heavy flamers and multimeltas. They are excellent 2nd wave support choices for sternguard.

Pricey, but boy do they light everybody up.

tzeentchling wrote:Fair enough. Didn't quite get that tone in yours and sourclam's posts before this, so thanks.

The original question was whether Sternguard were worth their points. The consensus seemed to be 'yes', but then it all shifted to a 'yes, but only take 5 of them and put em in a Razorback'. That's about the time it got heated... they're worth the points when you dump 30 of them onto the table, not 5. It's not an auto-win list, of course, but it's a very powerful list and will rewind a lot of the disdain for mediocre marines in my opinon.

Stelek wrote:I swear you don't play the same game the rest of us do.

He doesn't. Ask how many games he's played in the last 3 months and compare that to what you probably play in a week.