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I'm afraid to ask.

I've found that it's the same for certain posters here and elsewhere who love to rail on about how perceived terrible units are somehow great, or how perceived good units are somehow actually terrible.

They hardly ever play the games they discuss so frequently.

It's generally easy enough to spot the good and bad units. I mean, math hammer works.

Stelek: Your point about the drop army is fine and all, but wouldn't 1.5xTactical marines do the job better than the sterngaurd?
(My argument is that Sterngaurd are not really that effective versus ork hordes compared to other things in the codex. They look to me to be very effective versus MEQs and with MEQs making up close to half the total armies in 40K, that's not nothing)

Their only good bit vs. Orks is that they can ignore cover saves, so each wound is a kill.

Though I'm generally with you on this against Orks. From the looks of what I can see they're killing about 7 Orks on the drop with Rapid fire when they can ignore cover. That's not nearly enough Boyz who will shred these guys with retaliatory fire and then charge (if you're not using this pod trick).

When charged these guys each have 2 Attacks and go before the Orks, but even if there's still 10 of them left before the assault (not likely) they're only killing 5 more Boyz before all the Orks attacks come in.

I guess that's why Stelek is saying you need the Deathwind Launcher vs. Orks, but still, if I recall my lists before I stopped playing 40k I had 4 or so squads of 30 Boyz, and that was before 5th ed makes you want to take more regular Boyz (and obligatory Lootas).

Still, I've played disparately few games of 5th Ed so I could be off base with this or I could be missing something so please take all this with a grain of salt.

EDIT: I missed the "wound on a 2+ round", which should kill a ton of Orks if they can't get cover saves. Still, it would hurt a single mob of Boyz, who will still have guys around to strike back against the Sternguard.

This thread makes me want to play the Sterngaurd force the lads are describing because I'm far from sure of my stance.

While 5 sternguard is definitely not going to do much [anyone read October's White Dwarf battle reports?], I think 9, in a drop pod with a librarian with the gate power dropping behind the enemy and wreaking havoc and then teleporting away when they move to counter sounds VERY effective.

This aside, though, how can anyone NOT see how AMAZING the sternguard are?

10 terminators with 2 cyclone missle launchers: "OH crap, a C'tan!"

10 Sternguard, no upgrades: "psht... *snicker*.. *boom*"

I played an apocalypse game where I was forced to watch one 250 point unit of 10 guys decimate Zarakynel, the uber greater daemon lord of Slaanesh, because she's T8 and has a 4+ save. There's nothing these guys can't kill.

Someone said that combi-meltas cost you an extra 50 points. Screw that, I wouldn't take 10. I'm bound to lose a few guys to shooting and I'd rather it be guys I didn't pay more than I had to for. There isn't much that won't die to 6 or 7 meltaguns, or just to keep the points nice and pretty, drop a single veteran [9-man squad] to give 5 guys combi-melta.

Honestly, though, I would invest in a heavy flamer. The special ammo is nice and all, but the ability to, in most situations, hit 7 or so models, wound on a 2+/3+, and VERY often ignore their save sounds too good to pass up.

And someone complained about their cc ability? Perhaps you are not aware that just about every cc unit has only 2 attacks? Assault marines and raptors have 2 attacks. Howling Banshees have 2 attacks. Seer councils have 2 attacks. New chaos marines were thought to be somewhat decent because each guy carries a weapon rack around with him, making each one able to shoot with the best of them while still being, effectively, an assault marine in close combat.

Now here we are with sternguard, who many are saying should stick with bolters because "in 5th edition volume, not strength of fire is what matters" and claim that with enough S4 shots the enemy will fail cover/armour saves anyway - so what's the problem with lots of S4 attacks in hth? And the fact that such a thing is on such a powerful shooty unit just makes them EVEN BETTER.

sourclams wrote: Sternguard also-also can shoot to pieces three monstrous creatures on drop. Sternguard also-also-also can blow away the three squads in the middle of the table and now your enemy is forced to choose between killing Sternguard and meeting the other 1100 points of marines pounding up from the deployment zone. Sternguard aren't standing around with their ceramite thumbs up their fundaments setting up their guns while they get ripped apart.

Kinda makes the case to spend the 25 pts for the extended carapace for your HQ and heavy TMC. In that scenario, sternguard cause only 1.85 wounds per 10 man unit instead of 3.7 wounds. Also helps against pesky snipers (except on the rare occasion they rend). I also see it as another reason why DS warriors (again give them the EC and keep them screened or in cover) become a more viable replacement for elite fexes as they can withstand the sternguard 2+ wound pummeling a scad better (I believe that the 2+ rounds are still AP 5 right?)

I am thinking that against hordey orks, the trick might be to drop those Sternguard right behind their lootas and let the rest of your army worry about the boyz. Even without deathwind or whatnot, three 9-10 Sternguard aught to butcher three 15 boy loota mobs, probably knocking them down to 6-7 models a peice. The lootas, assuming they make their morale check (iffy) might have a scary bit of return fire, but probably not in the volume required to wipe the SG. That leaves the SG to kill all the lootas next turn, for a fairly happy ending.
What does the ork player do otherwise? Turn a unit of boyz around to deal with the threat? Send back a biker boss? I don't know.

Now, I am assuming that horde orks run max lootas these days... I don't know that for certain, but since SG are just as good at popping tanks, redirecting 1 unit of SG to kill a battle wagon while the other two busy themselves with lootas or something still sounds ok.

6-7 lootas give a scary return fire? really?

6-18 shots?

2-6 hit?

2-5/6 wound, meaning 0-2 dead marines according to the odds?

I can handle that, I think.

Allow me to repeat myself, since you didn't fully comprehend what I typed the first time...

The lootas, assuming they make their morale check (iffy) might have a scary bit of return fire, but probably not in the volume required to wipe the SG.

Bold added for emphasis.

Go go Gadget Reading Comprehension!

The reason Sternguard are so scary versus Orks is not the first turn drop.

It's the librarian teleporting the squad away, and then the deathwind launchers firing at you.

Guess who's stuck in a cluster and is going to take it in the shorts?

Yes, you green fellas are about to have a bad day.

I'm stupid. Sorry. It took this long to occur to me that while Sterngaurd are not the most points efficient way to mess up orks, they can still do it, (with some help) and will remain effective against everyone else while doing it. They're the rare decent against hordes and MEQ unit.

Stelek wrote:The reason Sternguard are so scary versus Orks is not the first turn drop.

It's the librarian teleporting the squad away, and then the deathwind launchers firing at you.

Guess who's stuck in a cluster and is going to take it in the shorts?

Yes, you green fellas are about to have a bad day.

While not a guaranteed solution, depending on placement isn't it fairly easy to get away from deathwinds? They've only got 12" range. That's clear-able with a turn of running, if you get lucky. Easily done if the drop pod happens to scatter away far enough.

Granted you can be a meanie and drop them on objectives, or wherever you know the orks HAVE to go. teehee. Man, the trouble that 2 or 3 of those could cause landing near my OWN gunline - ensuring that as someone's advancing they take 3 templates, right before they charge they're taking 3 templates, and everytime they wipe out a unit they're taking 3 more templates.

Oh glorious day. New space marines, I hate you so much ><

I'd run 10 men squads in drop pods, all with combi-meltas, and combat squadded if necessary. Very pricey but also very scary.

Sternguards attract alot of firepower once the opposing player figures out that they are the main factor thats kicking their @$$. If you can keep them safe they will make their points back 4 times over. oh and never run them without bolters.

I just faced an 11 man sternguard squad that droppodded in on a 30 man shoota boyz squad in cover. The sternguard opened up with bolters and a flamer and killed 8 boyz. On my turn I shot then assaulted the squad. The sternguard died in 2 rounds of combat.

I was not very impressed with sternguard in drop pods.

Darrian13 wrote:I just faced an 11 man sternguard squad that droppodded in on a 30 man shoota boyz squad in cover. The sternguard opened up with bolters and a flamer and killed 8 boyz. On my turn I shot then assaulted the squad. The sternguard died in 2 rounds of combat.

I was not very impressed with sternguard in drop pods.

How did the Sternguard player manage to get charged after one round of shooting?

One would assume that the drop pod didn't scatter and that his rapid fire of dragonfire bolts didn't squish enough Orks in cover.

The speed freaks would actually be a decent army to table these guys but how many speed freaks armies do you see around?

@MarvinGayIsMyDaddy, Pakman has it right. They dropped in about 7 inches away from my boyz.

Darrian13 wrote:I just faced an 11 man sternguard squad that droppodded in on a 30 man shoota boyz squad in cover. The sternguard opened up with bolters and a flamer and killed 8 boyz. On my turn I shot then assaulted the squad. The sternguard died in 2 rounds of combat.

I was not very impressed with sternguard in drop pods.

add a few more combi-flamers and/or a heavy flamer and you might be. Bring em in a vulkan army and its even better.

How come 22 bolter shots only killed 8 boys? The flamer only did 1 kill? Someone forgot the no cover save bolter shots.

Sternguard a nice, but not a magic solution.

You could have success against orks, but even against the massed boyz list it is very touch and go.

Meanwhile Stormboy and Warbiker heavy lists will close the range too fast and offer you your own heads.

Ultimately put your faith in tacticals, and keep Sternguard to cover the gaps.

Sternguard can dish out serious damage when they appear with all those combi-meltas or -flamers. But they need to be backed up, say by a Librarian with gate of infinity.

scuddman wrote:How come 22 bolter shots only killed 8 boys? The flamer only did 1 kill? Someone forgot the no cover save bolter shots.

That is about statistically correct: 22 shots at 66% to hit = 14.66 wounds at 50% chance to wound = 7.33 wounds with no cover save. At 5" away, you are not gonna get as many hits with the flamer and you still wound on 4+.

Can't have 11 sternguard so i assume 1 was an IC of some sort. Anyways for 10 sternguard vs orks in cover

Hellfire
20 x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wound x 1/2 failed cover save = 6.11 kills

Dragonfire
20 X 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound = 6.67 kills

Neither is stunning, which is why you better have the Librarian and/or combi-flamer or heavy flamer if you intend to do anything versus orks.

Deathwind isn't a good choice IMHO. Can't shoot it after the drop, so isn't going to do much of anything to the orks bearing down on the squad unless they can survive to teleport out.

winterman wrote:Deathwind isn't a good choice IMHO. Can't shoot it after the drop, so isn't going to do much of anything to the orks bearing down on the squad unless they can survive to teleport out.

I believe the plan for those is to bring the pain once the Librarian has teleported the squad out.

Orks assault the Sternguard unit.
Combat is resolved.
Libarian telports the squad out.
Orks are all squished together per the CC rules.
Deathwind templates hit more models than they normally would, softening up the squad further for...
Sternguard returning to open fire again.

Can't have 11 sternguard so i assume 1 was an IC of some sort. Anyways for 10 sternguard vs orks in cover

Hellfire
20 x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wound x 1/2 failed cover save = 6.11 kills

Dragonfire
20 X 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound = 6.67 kills

Neither is stunning, which is why you better have the Librarian and/or combi-flamer or heavy flamer if you intend to do anything versus orks.

One of the advantages of Drop Pods (and Deepstrike in general) is being able to land and fire from an angle where the enemy won't be getting a cover save. 12 dead Orks per Sternguard unit on the drop is not something to be shrugged off.

One of the advantages of Drop Pods (and Deepstrike in general) is being able to land and fire from an angle where the enemy won't be getting a cover save. 12 dead Orks per Sternguard unit on the drop is not something to be shrugged off.

How can you get an angle on a unit with half in area terrain? Answer is you can't. Not saying it is easy to get all your orks into cover either, but if you are gonna math hammer, it is best to look at worse case senarios imho.

And lets say they are not in cover. 10 sterngaurd w/ null zone/gate librarian (seems to be the favored option)

expectations:
10 sterngaurd kill 11.11 with hellfire rounds, Lib kills 0.11 w/ bolt pistol.

Next turn mob has 18 shootas and a nob (erring on side of orks a bit), they shoot before the charge killing 2.05,

In assault Lib kills 0.75 of an ork and the remaining 8 sterngaurd kill 3.33. Orks return with 14*3 basic attacks and 4 klaw attacks and kill another 5 marines.

So on average that Lib will only have about 3 marines to port outta there next turn and the orks are at around 14-15. Not a big return on the 385 point minium investment. That does assume no other units are available to support the orks (and vice versa).

I'm not saying sternguard suck, as I agree they rock. What I am saying is that sterngaurd sans flamer should not be thrown willy nilly at a mob of orks expecting the special rounds to clean up. Throw even one flamer or heavy flamer into the mix and the advantage shifts to the sternguard. Take Vulkan (as I'll be doing for awhile anyways) and it gets even more sick.

HTH