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I have a fwe questions regarding IG heavy and Special weapons.

1) Do the Heavy Weapons teams and/or Special Weapons carries retain their lasguns?
Specifically this is important to me in terms of the 'Warrior Weapons' doctrine - its the difference between each unit costing 6-12pts extra.
Points to consider: a) The 'loader' at least retains his lasgun and is allowed to fire with the rest of the unit.
b) When creating a heavy weapons team, there is no specific designation of who is the loader and who is the operator. I have my HW teams all on 25mm bases so its not obvious who is 'using' the gun.
c) Heavy Weapons teams in a HW Platoon / HQ Platoon are listed as equipped with 'Lasguns and Mortars'
d) Further to the points above, in a squad of 10 guardsmen with a mortar. If the unit moves, how many lasgun do i have and are allowed to rapid-fire? 9 (8+ loader) or 10 (8 +loader +firer)?

2) Similarly, the Special Weapons carriers: if one has a Meltagun, and the rest of the unit fires at a unit beyond his range, is he also allowed to fire with a Lasgun?
a) The wording on Special Weapons is exactly the same as for Heavy Weapons platoons. If it is decided that the 10man + mortar squad above is allowed to fire 10 lasguns, then the special weapon carrier should be allowed to fire a lasgun as well.
b) However, the Special Weapons Squads are explicitly stated as swapping their weapons for special weapons.

3) An enemy throws a pie-plate on the guardsmen (6 + Melta + Mortar + Sg), hitting all of them. How do I allocate wounds:
a) Should it be simply: 6/6 guardsment, 1/1 Special Carrier, 2/Mortar Crew, 1/Sg ? evenly distributed between all models of different armament?

4) If the 'loader' of a SW team dies, or the 'gunner' dies and the 'loader' takes over: does the weapon fire at a decreased rate? or does it function almost as a 2-wound guardsman?


And some LOS/Cover questions, just tell me true/false:

A squad of 10 can see 6/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy does not get a cover save.
A squad of 10 can see 4/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy gets a 4+ cover save.
A squad of 10 can see 1/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy gets a 4+ cover save. However, I theoretically can still cause 10 casualties if all hit/wound and saves are failed?
A squad of 10 has 6/10 able to see 6/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy does not get a cover save, but only 6 models of mine can fire.
A squad of 10 has 6/10 able to see 4/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy gets a 4+ cover save, but only 6 models of mine can fire.
A squad of 10 has 6/10 models able to see 6/10 of an enemy directly without intervening cover. The other 4 models of mine are shooting at the enemy through cover. What cover save do the enemy get? None, 4+, or none vs 6 shots and 4+ vs 4 shots?
A squad of 10 has 4/10 models able to see 6/10 of an enemy directly without intervening cover. The other 6 models of mine are shooting at the enemy through cover. What cover save do the enemy get? None, 4+, or none vs 4 shots and 4+ vs 6 shots?

My IG squad of 8(9?) Lasguns + Lascannon is shooting at an enemy unit.
All of the lasgun equipped guardsmen are shooting through cover at the enemy in a way that confers a 4+ save to the enemy. However the Lascannon has direct LOS to only one enemy, with no cover in between.
What model may the lascannon shot be allocated to? Only the one it may see, or any model in the enemy unit? Do the enemy get a cover save vs the lascannon shot.

and finally.
In WW1 there were situations, especially in trench warfare, where soldiers would mount their gun on a periscope contraption; this allowed fire out of a trench without exposing yourself to enemy fire. If I modelled all of my IG lying down, but with guns held above their head on these periscopes, then theoretically, they are much more difficult to be hit (as you must be able to target the model's body, not its weapon) yet they are still able to fire normally.
(I would never do such a thing, but, is it possible?)

Thanks for help,
Trasvi


EDIT: Are Techmarine Servitors counted towards the WG limit? i have two different FAQ's (one from the 2003 release, one from 2008 5th ed) that each say differently (the most recent says no)
Does this also apply in the same way to Tau Drones on characters with a controller? If not, why not?
The same, older FAQ says that only Guard Infantry units may have Chem Inhalers - yet I see many people talking about Chem-inhaler equipped conscripts. Are Conscripts Guard Infantry? or do most people ignore that FAQ? - in which case, all units, incl Storm Troopers, Ogryns, Ratlings and technically Tanks are required to purchase Chem Inhalers?
Ugh. GW needs to employ proof readers. Or, at least get people to peruse the book before it is printed to see what just does not make sense.

Trasvi wrote:I have a fwe questions regarding IG heavy and Special weapons.

1) Do the Heavy Weapons teams and/or Special Weapons carries retain their lasguns?
Specifically this is important to me in terms of the 'Warrior Weapons' doctrine - its the difference between each unit costing 6-12pts extra.
Points to consider: a) The 'loader' at least retains his lasgun and is allowed to fire with the rest of the unit.
b) When creating a heavy weapons team, there is no specific designation of who is the loader and who is the operator. I have my HW teams all on 25mm bases so its not obvious who is 'using' the gun.
c) Heavy Weapons teams in a HW Platoon / HQ Platoon are listed as equipped with 'Lasguns and Mortars'
d) Further to the points above, in a squad of 10 guardsmen with a mortar. If the unit moves, how many lasgun do i have and are allowed to rapid-fire? 9 (8+ loader) or 10 (8 +loader +firer)?

Yes, there is no indication in the codex that equipping a heavy weapon team with a heavy weapon or giving a model a special weapon (beyond the special weapon squads that say their weapon is replaced) removes the model's lasgun.

With that said, you would need to model a lasgun on the model per WYSIWYG if you planned to actually use it in game. Plus there is a good amount of people who will think you're cheating regardless of how ambiguous the codex wording is or isn't so you also have to decide if that's worth it to you. Plus if you do go out and glue lasguns on your heavy/special models there's a good chance that GW might change the wording in the next codex and you'll be stuck ripping the lasguns right back off your models.

2) Similarly, the Special Weapons carriers: if one has a Meltagun, and the rest of the unit fires at a unit beyond his range, is he also allowed to fire with a Lasgun?
a) The wording on Special Weapons is exactly the same as for Heavy Weapons platoons. If it is decided that the 10man + mortar squad above is allowed to fire 10 lasguns, then the special weapon carrier should be allowed to fire a lasgun as well.
b) However, the Special Weapons Squads are explicitly stated as swapping their weapons for special weapons.

Yes, but see my answer above for more detail.

3) An enemy throws a pie-plate on the guardsmen (6 + Melta + Mortar + Sg), hitting all of them. How do I allocate wounds:
a) Should it be simply: 6/6 guardsment, 1/1 Special Carrier, 2/Mortar Crew, 1/Sg ? evenly distributed between all models of different armament?

A is correct. You have six models with a lasgun, one model with a melta (and lasgun), a sergeant (assuming he's equipped differently) and then two models with a lasgun and one heavy weapon.

4) If the 'loader' of a SW team dies, or the 'gunner' dies and the 'loader' takes over: does the weapon fire at a decreased rate? or does it function almost as a 2-wound guardsman?

There is no "loader or "gunner" in the rules, those terms are only used to denote the model that actually has the heavy weapon based with him (gunner) and the other model (loader). In the rules, they are just two models both equipped with the same heavy weapon so as long as one model is alive the heavy weapon may be fired.

And some LOS/Cover questions, just tell me true/false:

A squad of 10 can see 6/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy does not get a cover save.
A squad of 10 can see 4/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy gets a 4+ cover save.
A squad of 10 can see 1/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy gets a 4+ cover save. However, I theoretically can still cause 10 casualties if all hit/wound and saves are failed?

True, true, true.

A squad of 10 has 6/10 able to see 6/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy does not get a cover save, but only 6 models of mine can fire.

Not enough information. It depends if the majority of the models in your firing unit can cleanly see a majority of models in the target unit. Assuming in your example that the six models in your firing unit can cleanly see six models in the firing unit then yes, the enemy doesn't get a cover save and only six of your models can fire.

Models in the firing unit that do not have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit do not get to fire. This is in the basic shooting rules in the rulebook (pg 16: "which models can fire").

A squad of 10 has 6/10 able to see 4/10 of an enemy unit. The enemy gets a 4+ cover save, but only 6 models of mine can fire.

True.

A squad of 10 has 6/10 models able to see 6/10 of an enemy directly without intervening cover. The other 4 models of mine are shooting at the enemy through cover. What cover save do the enemy get? None, 4+, or none vs 6 shots and 4+ vs 4 shots?

No cover saves at all because the majority of the target unit can be cleanly seen by the majority of the firing models. Again, this is clearly answered in the rulebook (pg 22: "units partially in cover").

A squad of 10 has 4/10 models able to see 6/10 of an enemy directly without intervening cover. The other 6 models of mine are shooting at the enemy through cover. What cover save do the enemy get? None, 4+, or none vs 4 shots and 4+ vs 6 shots?

The target unit will get a cover save, but it depends what type of cover they are shooting through for the actual roll needed. Again this is clearly covered on page 22.

My IG squad of 8(9?) Lasguns + Lascannon is shooting at an enemy unit.
All of the lasgun equipped guardsmen are shooting through cover at the enemy in a way that confers a 4+ save to the enemy. However the Lascannon has direct LOS to only one enemy, with no cover in between.
What model may the lascannon shot be allocated to? Only the one it may see, or any model in the enemy unit? Do the enemy get a cover save vs the lascannon shot.

Page 22 for units in partial cover. Pages 24-25 for wound allocation and casualty removal.

and finally.
In WW1 there were situations, especially in trench warfare, where soldiers would mount their gun on a periscope contraption; this allowed fire out of a trench without exposing yourself to enemy fire. If I modelled all of my IG lying down, but with guns held above their head on these periscopes, then theoretically, they are much more difficult to be hit (as you must be able to target the model's body, not its weapon) yet they are still able to fire normally.
(I would never do such a thing, but, is it possible?)

Thanks for help,
Trasvi

There are many, many, many ways to abuse the rules through modeling but this particular example is false because LOS is drawn from the firing model's head, not from his weapon. So modeling your guys laying down would prevent them from firing if they are in a position where the enemy can't see them either.

Again, that is clearly stated in the rules for LOS (pg 16).

EDIT: Are Techmarine Servitors counted towards the WG limit? i have two different FAQ's (one from the 2003 release, one from 2008 5th ed) that each say differently (the most recent says no)
Does this also apply in the same way to Tau Drones on characters with a controller? If not, why not?

There is only one FAQ, the most current one. All other FAQs are no longer published by GW as a FAQ for the codex, so the only one that matters is the current one. Both the 2nd printing of the IG codex and the current FAQ list Servitors as not counting towards a Techmarine's wargear limit.

As for Tau Drones, they are immaterial to the question because they are found in a different codex which has its own set of rules.

The same, older FAQ says that only Guard Infantry units may have Chem Inhalers - yet I see many people talking about Chem-inhaler equipped conscripts. Are Conscripts Guard Infantry? or do most people ignore that FAQ? - in which case, all units, incl Storm Troopers, Ogryns, Ratlings and technically Tanks are required to purchase Chem Inhalers?
Ugh. GW needs to employ proof readers. Or, at least get people to peruse the book before it is printed to see what just does not make sense.

Again, that older FAQ is no longer current, therefore people do not follow it because it. Conscripts are not Guard Infantry. Yes, that question should not have been removed from the FAQ and as written it is kooky.

Actually I believe that there was a 'FAQ' (to use the term loosely) in the UK White Dwarf that stated that the loader kept his lasgun while the gunner did not.

I have never seen that in any FAQ. not even the one released here in the states from the GW site. I don't know what people's obsession is with the concept of a "Loader". There is NO SUCH THING AS A "LOADER" or "GUNNER". Unless you are playing last chancers.

A side note/clarification to Yak's answer to your question about wound allocation from a pie plate(which you may already be aware of, but just in case). You only allocate wounds not hits. I have seen people allocating hits in my FLGS from templates and vehicle explosions, etc. I hear things like "ok, 6 of your guardsmen, the missle launcher and the seargent are all wounded from the Chimera explosion. So just in case that was unclear, they tell you the number of wounding hits, then you assign them to model groups as you wish.

Meph

Sorry about asking such obvious questions regaring LOS that i should really know... our group only has 2 copies of the new rules between us (poor uni students and all) and we happened to be without a copy for a few days +game so we were stuck with trying to remember what happened.

One of the main reasons i'm concerned about the Lasgun issues on heavy weapons is for Warrior Weapons doctrine.
I'm writing a set of files for the old Army Builder 2.2 for the guys in my group to use. I know that there are files out there already, and a new army builder, but i like the challenge of doing it myself. Tau, Necrons and Nids are down (side note: lol at the necron codex. took me 15 mins to write in to army builder whereas guard have taken me over 3 weeks)

So in implementing the Doctrines system, its a big thing for me to know what models have what weapons, when implementing Warrior Weapons.

My interpretation of the 'loader/gunner' thing is just that the 'gunner' is the guardsman who has fired the Hvy Weapon that turn, and the loader is the second part of the team. In this way if the gunner does not fire the Heavy Weapon, he is allowed to fire a lasgun.

Thus a squad of 10 guardsmen, with 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon, is still allowed to fire 10 lasguns if they wish. This also means that upgrading to warrior weapons will cost 20pts for the unit instead of 14. Similarly in a Heavy Weapons squad of 3 mortars, the upgrade to warrior weapons costs 12 points rather than 6 or 0pts. Correct?



As for TLOS and modeling to your advantage: my group in 4th edition had the general consensus that all models took up the space of their base as if they were standing still on two feet. To solve LOS issues and arguements, we had a few 'mock models' that we replaced on the tabletop over the crouching/prone minis: this was generally a space marine/tau/guardsman standing upright. In this way you couldn't argue that a crouching mini was out of LOS as it was too low.

However people at the FLGS and on here seem to have very different interpretations that would seem to harm the majority of my tau who are crouching - if LOS is drawn from their head there are a vast number of barricades and ruins that they can't see out of anymore!! My friendly group plays that in ruins/barricades that are designed to be used as cover and shot over, that if your squad is pressed against the barricade/ruins windows it does not block LOS for the unit. I gather that the official ruling is that we need to check LOS from every single model's head, and if the wall between two windows is in the way then thats just too bad for him?

smart_alex wrote:I have never seen that in any FAQ. not even the one released here in the states from the GW site. I don't know what people's obsession is with the concept of a "Loader". There is NO SUCH THING AS A "LOADER" or "GUNNER". Unless you are playing last chancers.

Doesn't mean that it does not exist (LINK).

Thanks for this Ghaz:

Printed in UK White Dwarf 306 on page 127:

Q 1. Do both heavy weapons crew have a lasgun?
Q 2. Can both heavy weapon crewmen fire their lasguns (if they have them) instead of firing their heavy weapon?
Q 3. Are both crewmen required to fire heavy weapons?
Q 4. Although it is not specified in the codex, assuming one crewman is the 'gunner' (ie, who fire the weapon) and the other the 'loader' (who just carries the ammo), if the gunner is killed by an attack that can specify the target (eg, Vindicare Assasin, Mind War etc) or by a template weapon, can the loader continue to fire the heavy weapon in the gunner's abscence?

A. Guardsmen all have lasguns initally, however one member of a weapons team must give up his lasgun to take a heavy weapon(only one two-handed weapon allowed). One member of the team can fire his lasgun while the other fires the heavy weapon. Both have to be killed to disable the heavy weapon.

However, to be picky: The reason given for the guardsman having to give up his Lasgun to carry a heavy weapon is because he can only have one two handed weapon.
When upgrading to Warrior Weapons, his lasgun is replaced by laspistol/close combat weapon. He thus now does not have a two-handed weapon, so giving him a heavy weapon after this will not cause any conflict.

So i guess the question now is: does the equipping with Heavy weapon come before or after the warrior weapons doctrine? From a fluff perspective, i'd say doctrines come first.
And, in a situation where the 'gunner' is killed and the loader picks up the heavy weapon, i'm assuming he still counts as being armed with his Warrior Weapons and may choose to use them rather than the heavy weapon?

Trasvi wrote:


So i guess the question now is: does the equipping with Heavy weapon come before or after the warrior weapons doctrine? From a fluff perspective, i'd say doctrines come first.
And, in a situation where the 'gunner' is killed and the loader picks up the heavy weapon, i'm assuming he still counts as being armed with his Warrior Weapons and may choose to use them rather than the heavy weapon?

According to old FAQs, after.