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Chaos Lords make a single squad of Chosen or Terminators Troop. Chaos Sorcerors make a single squad of Possessed Troop. Demon Princes get a 50 point points break ... wait ... they are already got that. Demon Princes are fine but the other two could use a little bonus. Yay or nay.

Chaos Lords thereby getting a good bonus, Chaos Sorcerors getting a cool bonus while not that great.

Allowing certain units to become troop choices is pretty good, but not worth the 50 points. Would it be too good if they allowed all of their squads to be troop choices? Sure having terminators as troops is something normally reserved for deathwing, but their commanders don't get dinged 50 points for it.

Maybe increase the allowance to 2 units of either chosen or terminators (choose one, you cannot have one squad of termies as troops, and one squad of chosen). And keep points as is

Possessed *should* be Troops. When you compare their costs and abilities with other Cult Marines, they're generally comparable. So I say the rule can be simpler:
"Chaos Sorceror allows player to take units of Possessed as Troops".

Chosen and especially Terminators are not good choices for Troops. However, I would do this:
- If the Chaos Lord wears Terminator Armour, then Terminators count as Scoring Units;
- If the Chaos Lord rides a Bike, then Bikers count as Scoring Units;
- If the Chaos Lord has Wings, then Raptors count as Scoring Units; otherwise,
- Chosen count as Scoring Units.

Daemon Princes are fine, and Lesser Daemons are already Troops. Being fightier than a Chaos Lord, and just as good of a Psyker as a Sorceror means no other bonus is required or desired.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Possessed *should* be Troops. When you compare their costs and abilities with other Cult Marines, they're generally comparable. So I say the rule can be simpler:
"Chaos Sorceror allows player to take units of Possessed as Troops".

Chosen and especially Terminators are not good choices for Troops. However, I would do this:
- If the Chaos Lord wears Terminator Armour, then Terminators count as Scoring Units;
- If the Chaos Lord rides a Bike, then Bikers count as Scoring Units;
- If the Chaos Lord has Wings, then Raptors count as Scoring Units; otherwise,
- Chosen count as Scoring Units.

Daemon Princes are fine, and Lesser Daemons are already Troops. Being fightier than a Chaos Lord, and just as good of a Psyker as a Sorceror means no other bonus is required or desired.

That is another option. Basically given the expensive nature of Chaos units, if I want to include a unit of Possessed or Chosen I am looking at losing a scoring unit. Not cool.

I would like to be able to use the Daemon Prince from the Chaos Daemons book as an HQ in a Chaos Space Marines army. While I'm at it, I would like to name a chaos lord as being from one of the big four legions, thereby giving him more than just a mark of chaos, but the other special rules that apply to that legion's troop choice, at least one chaos gift or item/weapon from their god and the same with squads of chaos terminators. If they would have included that in the latest codex, I would have been happy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Possessed *should* be Troops. When you compare their costs and abilities with other Cult Marines, they're generally comparable. So I say the rule can be simpler:
"Chaos Sorceror allows player to take units of Possessed as Troops".

Chosen and especially Terminators are not good choices for Troops. However, I would do this:
- If the Chaos Lord wears Terminator Armour, then Terminators count as Scoring Units;
- If the Chaos Lord rides a Bike, then Bikers count as Scoring Units;
- If the Chaos Lord has Wings, then Raptors count as Scoring Units; otherwise,
- Chosen count as Scoring Units.

Daemon Princes are fine, and Lesser Daemons are already Troops. Being fightier than a Chaos Lord, and just as good of a Psyker as a Sorceror means no other bonus is required or desired.

I like it, simple, and it compromises between making some of the stronger chaos units troops (with which you can swamp your opponent... not nice), and keeping them flawed.

Yeah... guys... I don't think that making Possessed into Troops is going to suddenly make them more attractive. They're still an utterly useless and un-useable unit.

Maybe if they could pick their ability each turn (like, say, Sternguard), then they'd be worthwhile, but they can't, so they're not. They're useless just like every other random unit out there (Chaos Dreads, Daemonhosts, Sanctioned Psykers, etc.).

As far as Chosen as Troops goes... they're just more expensive non-cult Marines who's bonuses to their statlines are largley unremarkable. Hell, their Champion doesn't even get anything special - he's 10 points for +1A and doesn't add to the units ability to take specialist equipment. It's a fluff idea, but, like with the Possessed, I don't really see the attraction.

BYE

While Possessed compete with Berzerkers (poorly) their 6 abilities all lend themselves to their role: close combat. But yeah, they suck. They get the edge when you get good use out of their Invulnerable save.

Chosen on the other hand are equivalent to Infiltrating or Outflanking Chaos Marines w/ ld 10 for free. Their only real weakness they pay a points premium for the Heavy Weapon. Excellent squad.

Like I said, I often look at including Chosen and the only reason not to is because I would rather fit in a third Troop instead.

Possessed are fine for what they do, just not for what they cost. If they were 22 pts, and the Champion could take PW / PF, they'd be fine as an alternative to Berzerkers in the Troops section.

Chosen are pretty good because they can take a lot of weapon upgrades. Very dense, and excellent alternative counterpart to Havocs.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Possessed are fine for what they do, just not for what they cost. If they were 22 pts, and the Champion could take PW / PF, they'd be fine as an alternative to Berzerkers in the Troops section.

Chosen are pretty good because they can take a lot of weapon upgrades. Very dense, and excellent alternative counterpart to Havocs.

If you want to talk about it, there are two ways to look at it. Take a big squad and you are getting a deal on an Icon say +1I. Take a small squad and you are getting a deal on a 5++. Like say taking an IoT.

It is a tough comparison considering that Berzerkers get +1 attack, Bolt pistols, grenades (including Krak) AND Furious Charge. And are Troop.

But the Possessed get a 5++ and their special power. WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN.



Come on, they are cool. Too bad they do not have Frag Grenades at least. Save five points on the champ.

I quite like JohnHwangDD's suggestion, though I'm not sure if allowing ALL chosen as scoring units is a bit overpowered...

No points should be changed...

I wouldnt mind this rule but if you put it to CSM then you would have to do it to every other race in the game as it becomes unbalanced

ArbitorIan wrote:I quite like JohnHwangDD's suggestion, though I'm not sure if allowing ALL chosen as scoring units is a bit overpowered...

No points should be changed...

If you allow that you are looking at an entire army that is Infiltrating/ Outflanking. Yikes. Not that it is not comparable to White Scars or Deathwing. But that is not really what Chaos is about, or rather it would be a drastic change to the current codex.

Tacobake wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:I quite like JohnHwangDD's suggestion, though I'm not sure if allowing ALL chosen as scoring units is a bit overpowered...

No points should be changed...

If you allow that you are looking at an entire army that is Infiltrating/ Outflanking. Yikes. Not that it is not comparable to White Scars or Deathwing. But that is not really what Chaos is about, or rather it would be a drastic change to the current codex.

Agreed, this would cause so many problems if there was no point penalties.

Squig_herder wrote:

Tacobake wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:I quite like JohnHwangDD's suggestion, though I'm not sure if allowing ALL chosen as scoring units is a bit overpowered...

If you allow that you are looking at an entire army that is Infiltrating/ Outflanking.

Agreed, this would cause so many problems if there was no point penalties.

Guys, I'm confused here.

Counting as Chosen as Scoring simply means that they can capture and contest Objectives. But it doesn't make them available as Troops.

I don't know how you get "an entire army that is Infiltrating/ Outflanking.", given that the Chosen would still consume an Elite slot, and the CSM player would still need to have at least 2 regular Troops choices to fulfill mandatory minimum Troops requirements.

What problems are you envisioning? My suggestion means that potentially, a CSM player can take convert 3 Elites and/or 3 Fast into Scoring, in addition to whatever Troops they take.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:

Tacobake wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:I quite like JohnHwangDD's suggestion, though I'm not sure if allowing ALL chosen as scoring units is a bit overpowered...

If you allow that you are looking at an entire army that is Infiltrating/ Outflanking.

Agreed, this would cause so many problems if there was no point penalties.

Guys, I'm confused here.

Counting as Chosen as Scoring simply means that they can capture and contest Objectives. But it doesn't make them available as Troops.

I don't know how you get "an entire army that is Infiltrating/ Outflanking.", given that the Chosen would still consume an Elite slot, and the CSM player would still need to have at least 2 regular Troops choices to fulfill mandatory minimum Troops requirements.

What problems are you envisioning? My suggestion means that potentially, a CSM player can take convert 3 Elites and/or 3 Fast into Scoring, in addition to whatever Troops they take.

I stand corrected. I got confused when you started talking about Possessed as Troop.

Oh, OK. Maybe I wasn't clear enough above.

I like Possessed as Troop, because they're not "better" than any of the other Troops (unless you roll Power Weapons or Rending).

The rest, I figured would be OK if they could be Scoring, but wanted to stay in the FOC as-is.