Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im sick of the craze rule on the CSM's dreadnought, i mean it adds character but it is so unfair that the SM's get the better deal and for the craze rule we get no benifit, no drop pods, no teleporting, no extra CC attacks, we just get to shoot more if we roll a 1 and it could be our own troops.

I think that a system like the possessed would be more fair and grant diffent bonuses and maybe on a 1 a disadvantage

What do you think?

i didnt vote, because although you are right that chaos dreads need to be changed, giving them random powers is not the way to do it.

randomness is the very reason chaos dreads arent good. not being able to use them as you want is what makes them such an unpopular choice. its the same with possessed. when i deploy i want to be able to know exactly what each unit can do. i want to have chosen a unit to go in my army based on how i know it will perform. because of this chaos dreads and possessed are never in my army lists.

i wouldnt mind paying a little more for my chaos dreads if they went up to par with SM dreads. being able to mark them would also be good, and make up for SM getting venerables/ironclads/asscannon and all that jazz (i mean seriously, my dreads have been around for 10000 years but they cant be venerable?).

It's stupid i know, why are the SM's always getting everything good? i know they are the flagship of GW but come on CSM's are apart of them basicly, just turned.

Chaos Dreadnoughts are cheaper than Imperial Dreadnoughts by about 5pts, and has +1A. Plus, they have the opportunity to either Fleet or fire twice.

I think the problem that people have with them is that they're not simply Spikey Imperial Dreadnoughts. If you stop thinking of them like that, the problems of comparing apples to oranges goes away.

True, but CSM can drop pod them

Nurglitch wrote:
I think the problem that people have with them is that they're not simply Spikey Imperial Dreadnoughts. If you stop thinking of them like that, the problems of comparing apples to oranges goes away.

Yeah then we can compare a bad unit to a good one.

I didn't vote either. CSM Dreads suck, they won't be good until the next codex when they get new rules and a new model. And if that new model doesn't come they will remain the suck maybe get a hike in points and nothing in return.

We should be able to give them a mark of someone and get a bonus for too in my opinion

There have been rumors of codexes for each of the four gods. Maybe there will be god specific dreads that are kitted out to go with that god's shtick.

It would be nice if the CSM Dread could be Marked in some way, but that will wait for the Powers Codices.

In the mean time, it's clear that the standard CSM Dread should be modeled as a Furioso-type with 2 DNCCWs, rather than sporting twin-Las, much less Plasma Cannon....

Nah, you're good with whatever so long as you spend the first turn barreling headlong towards the enemy. Once you're closer to them than you are to friendly models, then you can go crazy to your heart's content.

Seriously, you can turn the Crazed! rule into a bonus so long as you stay close to the enemy, and you can use their attempts to play you by keeping away. A Chaos Dreadnought is very much a southpaw weapon.

Units you don't get to control for 1/3rd of the game aren't fun. End of story.

BYE

If you aren't in control of a Chaos Dreadnought, then you fail as a player. By planning ahead and getting it close to the enemy, you control the Crazed! rule and make it a benefit.

Yer but thats not always possible, what if you roll a 1 first turn and you have all these good weapons attached to it and your thinking oh yer these would pound at the enemy, but they dont, they blow the hell outta you instead, so theres no way knowing what number you are gunna roll.

You also stated that if you arent in cotrol of your dreadnought you fail as a player, in battles ( not on the table top, but made up ones by GW e.g. like black reach and that, you know all those made up battles in the 41st mellenium ) chaos dreadnoughts cant be controlled, there to full of daemons and all that crap.

So there is no failing aroud here.


BDA

And, again, that is why CSM Dreads should be dual DNCCWs. "Oh noes - it shot its twin-linked Bolters at me, whatever shall I do?!?"

Funny, I like the CSM dreads being crazy. It's one of the few things of the new codex that really makes sense.

How could a tormented soul become venerable? A marking choice could be cool but the fact that they just wig out and break rank is cool and funny. Then again, I am one of the few that miss berserkers blood raging.

Crazy bloodthirsty killing machine- a chaos dread.
Sit still and wait for orders- spikey imperial dread.

There is enough bland "spikey marine" crap in the CSM codex. To remove one of the few true chaotic elements is just pushing it further into mundane land.

i think they are awesome i have used one in my last 5 games doubled its points in all of them

I didn't vote because I didn't agree with either option.

Chaos Dreadnoughts are a whole lot of fun. Make them cheaper by 15 pts and we're good to go.

I said no. Quick fix, make them roll a D6 when they Fire Frenzy. 4+ they shoot the last target or else closest enemy. Otherwise they can shoot their own.

I reakon if GW made it so they could deep strike, then all of the complaining would stop. Because then id stop complaining lol

BDA

i agree with blooddeathassult, my forge world dread blew up my chaos baneblade in my first turn!

I love my dread (Even when he ripped though 2 havoc squads) lol! yes bad rolls can hurt but you got to love it, anything that can destroy its own troops just cracks me up! And yes in one game (4th ed) I rolled bad and he charged a Havoc squad they broke and then on the very next turn he did the same thing to the next squad!!! lol too funny I could not stop laughing the rest of the game! Its one of those what are you going to do moments its just a game, I don’t remember but I think I won because my opponent went in to shock that I was cracking up so much that my own unit killed so much of my own stuff! Lol Enjoy its only a game and the concept behind the Dread is that they don’t want to be alive anymore!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:And, again, that is why CSM Dreads should be dual DNCCWs. "Oh noes - it shot its twin-linked Bolters at me, whatever shall I do?!?"

Yeah, real good solution there DD.

"Just don't take any of the options it has."

Idiot...

BYE

Nurglitch wrote:If you aren't in control of a Chaos Dreadnought, then you fail as a player. By planning ahead and getting it close to the enemy, you control the Crazed! rule and make it a benefit.

This is not true, not even remotely.

I took a chaos dread in my GT list over the weekend. There were at least three times where a mistimed crazed rule cost me. At least three.

Not because it directly hurt me. But because it failed to do what it needed to do.

In a KP mission, there was an immobilized fire prism about 9 inches from my dread. One charge, that's 4 s10 hits, I get a KP for it. But no, stupid dread decides he'd rather shoot it twice with his plasma cannon, that misses once and bounces off the hull once.

In a game against nidzilla, dread is positioned to get a charge on an already-wounded carnifex. I figure, shoot plasma cannon for maybe a wound, fire heavy flamer for maybe a wound, and charge and finish it. Again, dreadnought decides he'd rather fire twice than charge something. Carnifex takes a couple of wounds, and then dreadnought goes down as a hive tyrant charges it.

In a game against horde orks, Dreadnought is positioned so that he can fire on the enemy if he malfunctions, and will stand and dump plasma into them on turn 1, and if they advance, get to hit them with the flamer in turn 2. But, no, this time he decides he doesn't want to fire blasts and templates at a horde of orks and runs at them instead. Gets mobbed and killed with powerklaws without really accomplishing anything.

In none of these scenarios did my dreadnought fire on my own troops. But, each and every time I had the opportunity for the dreadnought to make a decisive move, it failed me. That probably says more about my dice than anything else, but that's how it goes.

It's not a good unit, and with the same weapon loadout (TL-las, CCW - the only combo they can both take) costs exactly the same as the marine one. Five points for a drawback that costs you games is just awful.

I'm not opposed to having them be a little insane, but I think they deserve a more significant bonus in exchange. I think making them closer to 70 points would be appropriate.

Yeah, it does say something more about your dice than your tactics, because you haven't provided the context to justify that what would have happened otherwise would have been better. Mind you, that would have required detailed battle reports with photos and whatnot, so it's not your fault.

So I'm more curious about your dice. What sort of dice do you use? GW's house brand, chessex, casino, what?

Something that a guy on Warseer found when his lab had some spare graduate students and time available before term, was that GW dice, (although his findings generalized to any pipped rounded-corner dice) tended to roll 1s around 23% of the time.

I think that's why so many Warhammer 40k players are so risk adverse. GW has a design 'rule-of-thumb' whereby 1s are always failures and 6s are always successes. Given that 1s are always failures, and show up an inordinate amount of the time compared to the idealized 1/6 of the time, stuff like Chaos Dreadnoughts are too hard for most players to use well.

It's like shooting when the sights are off, it's not that the gun isn't a straight-shooter, it's that you're working on false assumptions. The problem is that with a rifle eventually a person would start to compensate for the sights, but dice ain't sights. People can't compensate for something that's 'invisibly random', so they over-compensate against whatever they perceive to be random.

So first, get yourself good dice - Casino dice for preference. Then analyze table-top performance.

How many games do you actually play in a given month?

About 0-4 times a week, depending on what else is going on in my life. Why do you ask?

i think its fine, its the risk you run when taking it.

Edit: shorter summary.

dreads are fine you just have to not make them a critical part of the plan

lol dice dont matter, it doesnt matter wat dice you have, umless they are super inhansed dice or wat not, all dice are the same, unless they are bigger smaller or a different shape.

But still getting kool looking dice does boost your moral.

BDA

I used to run 3 of them... in the last codex you could up their armor by 1 so 13/13/11 very nice... I just never armed them with big nasty anti-armor weapons. TL Auto-cannon and 2 x Plasma Cannon. They would be one flank of my force so if they had to open up on the closest things, it would be shoot at themselves and then on to other things. So you unload the TL bolter at each other and then pop the real gun at the next closest thing... because they were off on their own, the next closest would be enemies.

While you can't run the armor upgrade, they can still be an effective hit on an opponent's flank. You just can't use them like SM dreads... don't cover them with your own troops because you know the maniac will shoot you in the back. They are not the best choice available but Larry, Moe and Curly were always good for a laugh or two in every game and I think because of their randomness, the opponents would not automatically target them for death... Now we get a properly timed frenzy and low and behold, they will learn to respect them.