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The reason why I ask is that they have an undefeated record at major GT events this year. They won at the Las Vegas GT, then at the Chicago GT, and now at Heat #1 of the UKGT. Not only did the Orks win at Heat #1, but they seen to have dominated. Just like the Chicago GT, Heat #1 had 3 of the top 7 armies being Orks.


__________Attended__Qualified_Percentage Qualified:
Orks:__________10 ____7_______70%
Marines: _______32____3_______9%
Chaos Marines:__26____11______42%
Eldar:__________13____5_______38%
Guard:__________9____3_______33%
Dark Eldar:_______4____2_______50%
Tyranids:________9____4_______44%
Tau:___________10____3_______30%
Daemons:_______10____5_______50%
Daemonhunters:__2_____0________0%
Necrons:________7_____2_______28%
Totals:________132____45

So, are the Orks the best codex right now?

shouldn't those stats answer it for you?

Is this after or before the new marine dex came out?

I'd say a tentative yes.

It certainly is a 'top tier' army.
Looking at the UKGT-heat#1 results, 7 of the top 10 armies were Orks, Eldar or CSM (with Daemons, Tau and Dark Angels taking the other top spots)

The other interesting thing from your stats (which GT are they from BTW?) is that both Daemons and Dark Eldar came joint second (behind Orks) in terms of % qualifiers. Whilst the Dark Eldar could be an abberration (2 from 4 is not a good sample) Is it safe to say that the Daemons are a top-tier army?

If this is so it would mean that 4 of the last 5 published codices are better than the rest.

mmm, did anyone say 'codex creep'....

Looks like it. Possible people have to get used to them.

Tacobake wrote:Looks like it. Possible people have to get used to them.

I wouldnd't be suprised about that.

honestly I've dropped my vindicator aproach to drop pods with strength 5 ap x that I can use to block off hordes and elite army's to funnel through my gun's.

I would like to start off by saying it is one of the newest codexs, meaning it has 4th,5th edition in mind and need an update badly at the time.

now, i would say that the ork is one of the best set out dex's to date [ i havent seen the new sm dex] much like the new eldar one. with this in mind it is simpler to build your list with clear cut upgrades and rules and layout.

Also, you need to be good at waging war with your chosen race to stand a chance and by the looks of it, the ork players are experienced or just good gamers, i have seen witch hunters kill completly a chaos army, simply coz the chaos player was green and had very bad luck. it really depends on the player not the dex. but thats just my 2 bob in

I don't know so much that orks are just the most powerful, or that people don't know how to play against them, or don't bring lists with the tools to beat them.

Having played orks, I have a good idea how to play against them. I've faced them five times in tournaments now, and won four of those games. (I didn't play orks in any of these games either).

When I play orks, most people I have played against make some bad decisions during the game. Chief among these is the thought that some unit can speedbump the orks, when all it really does is give the orks an extra bit of movement by allowing them to get a charge.

Until more people get experience playing versus the horde, it's going to look like the most powerful codex. And, it's also a list that you need the tools to deal with. In a tournament setting, it's hard to bring the tools to deal with both 24 T6/3+ wounds AND 180 T4/6+ wounds.

One of the strengths of the ork list is that every point spent on a low AP weapon, or a anti-tank gun is essentially a wasted point, but in a tournament, you need to have those in your army. I don't know that it's a case of the ork codex being powerful itself, or that it's made powerful by the metagame.

Your numbers are worthless.

Actually it is as easy as taking 2 devestator squads with missilelaunchers. They should be able to hit massive amounts of orks and take out tyrants and the like. The normal units then need plasma and or lascannon. IMHO they are better of with all missilelaunchers though, because 2+ armoursave can be beat in combat just as easily. Just have a librarian or something with a PF handy...

I think a list with 4 tac squads (missile and flamer or plasma) and 2 dev squads with Missiles will be a nice attractive core. Add to that some other spices and it should be able to kick serious butt...

If you are guard just try and do the same. Take antitank units with ML. Take GL. They are able to cause wounds on a lot of things and are very cheap for the damage they can do.

Eldar/darkeldar have to be fast and make it count. don't know the best way they could counter both though... same goes for necrons...

All in all I think orks are hard but definately not invincible...

yea orks are kindda tough. AND there is alot of them. they can go toe to toe with SM but there is alot more of them. i agree a good tactic is missle launchers. even with my renegades i take LOTS of them. they are a very versatile weapon. pack enough punch to blow up some armor AND can do frags that can kill alot of troops. best of all they are dirt cheap.

"most powerful codex" is a loaded term. It can mean many things. You probably ought to clarify. Despite that, if you are using the most common meaning, then yes, Orks are the most powerful codex.

Some of this might be "codex creep" but I think Redbeard is right, that it takes time for people to learn to deal with new armies. We're not just building decks here, it takes time, money, and energy to make a new army or re-tool an old one.

lord_blackfang wrote:Your numbers are worthless.

what an awesome contribution to the topic...

they might not be the best but i think they are one of the most well rounded and this give a strong general a very good tool for making a great list.

usernamesareannoying wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Your numbers are worthless.

what an awesome contribution to the topic...

they might not be the best but i think they are one of the most well rounded and this give a strong general a very good tool for making a great list.

Actually, from a statistical point of view, this 'opinion' is not far wrong. There isn't a big enough sample to draw any meaningful conclusions from - only that it would appear to be the case that Orks are one of the stronger army choices. As to whether they are the strongest or not, you would need many more, controlled, results to actively say.

Without my stats head on, it's easy to see why people would come to this conclusion and I would say that, like many others already in this thread, I would vote them as a 'top tier' army.

with 4th edition in mind, they were the most powerful but with 5th edition in mind in terms of combat resolution, they arent THE most powerful.

Orks are a top tier army but most people in the past have prepared against playing Marines and didnt have the volume of fire vs orks. The same can be said of Nidzilla, 3 Falcon eldar, and Drop pod marines. Those armies were supposedly the "most powerful" at that time.

5th edition is more about horde armies so be prepared to take many multi-shot weapons.

Sorry, I was in a hurry.

I think that to draw your conclusion from the numbers, you have to make some assumptions that might not be true. Most importantly, that all players are of equal skill level and/or equally likely to play any given army.

Studies show that red cars are caught breaking the speed limit the most (yes, really). Does this mean red cars in general have stronger engines?

Orks are a very powerful codex with a meta game that is still somewhat unprepared for them. With the new space marine codex buffeting them with excellent anti horde options the meta game should shift up a bit.

The ork horde can be beaten by lists designed to do so, the problem is people are seemingly unwilling to create such lists due to the inherent weakness of those lists to the other major players (mech eldar, nidzilla, lashwhip chaos).

The Orks will lose the wind out of their sails when people start charging their mobs before the orks get a chance to assault.
Assault is the best way of cutting down large units.
Assault with assault guns. Anything that cuts down the unit size as your charging in.
Heavy Bolters just don't cut it. Spinefists and Flamers do. NECRON IMMORTAL CHARGE!

lord_blackfang wrote:Studies show that red cars are caught breaking the speed limit the most (yes, really). Does this mean red cars in general have stronger engines?

Duh. They're RED. Thus, they go faster QED.

lord_blackfang wrote:Sorry, I was in a hurry.

I think that to draw your conclusion from the numbers, you have to make some assumptions that might not be true. Most importantly, that all players are of equal skill level and/or equally likely to play any given army.

Studies show that red cars are caught breaking the speed limit the most (yes, really). Does this mean red cars in general have stronger engines?

The OP hasn't drawn any conclusions from the numbers. He has simply stated the numbers and then posed a question. It's clear that he's noting a specific trend and perhaps even suggesting the answer to this own question, but nowhere does he state that the numbers are irrefutable proof. They DO, however, appear to support (note: not prove) the conclusion that Orks have a very powerful, if not the most powerful, codex.

lord_blackfang wrote:Sorry, I was in a hurry.

I think that to draw your conclusion from the numbers, you have to make some assumptions that might not be true. Most importantly, that all players are of equal skill level and/or equally likely to play any given army.

Studies show that red cars are caught breaking the speed limit the most (yes, really). Does this mean red cars in general have stronger engines?

No, but there are a bunch of interesting psych studies on red cars, ranging from "cops notice them more" to "people who buy red cars are more likely to drive fast anyway."

The metagame impact of orks is very interesting, and I don't think it's done yet. Put frankly, very few armies can bring the tools to deal with Nidzilla, MEQ-spam, and the Green Tide, all at the same time. As orkish dominance increases (and people's modelling catches up with the rules changes), people will bring more anti-ork weaponry to the table, at the cost of their MEQ, TMC, and/or vehicle-killing firepower. As a result, there will come a point (I'm thinking early next year - maybe Adepticon '09?) where a MEQ or TMC army will be incredibly successful, as people will no longer have adequate tools to deal with it.

There's some wild pendulum swinging going on. "Mixed" armies are toast; spamming a single type of unit, requiring a specific tool to counter it, is in. As the metagame shifts, people either will or won't have the tools to handle your army.

Another explanation for the sudden dominance of the orks is that while they're new codex is definitely stronger than the old, it might not be so far out of line with other current codexes.

As far as I'm aware of, the general trend in 4th edition for tournament builds was to have a strong element of anti-meq, which would leave armies built with that in mind off footed when confronting most of the strong ork lists, hence why they've been having such great success.

I think the new marine codex goes a long way in taking the bite out of the Ork codex power. Ironclads and 2X HB Speeders/cheaper attack bikes can go a long way in countering an Ork Horde list.

I agree that the days of a balanced take-all-comers list looked gone. I had hopoes for such an army in chaos and so far it has eluded my grasp, but the new marine codex shines new hope that such a list (one that is competitive againt all extreme builds) it still a possibility.

First of all, please define an Orky army.

Lots and lots of options in that book. Swarm of ramshackle vehicles, tide of green skinned loons, lots of Deff Dreads, Loota heavy, Flashgit Heavy, Nob Army O'doom, Mount Nob Army O'doom.

Far far too hard to quantify. I think the Ork list is an excellent one, and the other thing you don't seem to have taken into account is the level of 'Veterancy' of the Ork Players. NooBs wouldn't do too well, as the sheer variety can hamper them, and most Orky Generals I know tend to not only be highly experienced Gamers, but highly experience *Greenskin* Gamers... That makes a helluva lot of difference to the 'metagame'

Didn't I just run this same thread? Cost me what little reputation I had as well, for excessive whining (which apparently is not a crime if you are a Dark Angels fan....).

LordRavurion, could you explain to me how your Devastator squads are going to survive the shooting by the Lootas? Did you know that the Ork player can screen himself from your Devastators so that he gets a 4+ cover save against your templates. Doubt that he'll bunch up for you either, you might get 2 models under a template, if they don't scatter. What are the Devastators going to screen themselves with, more marines?? How do you cover the rear of your Devastators from Snikrt and his infiltrating squad?

I agree there are probably armies that can beat Orks, I'd be eager to try twin Seer Council on jetbikes but WITH Destructor armed Warlocks for example. Orks don't deal well with buttoned up marines in Landraiders. Sadly, Drop Pod Sternguard with meltaguns negate Landraider based armies. It is open to question whether 30 Drop Podding Sternguard with a couple of minimized squads could beat Orks-and of course Drop Pod assault armies have problems with IG, or Inquisitor/mystic based armies.

I'd buy into the 3 Whirlwind Marine idea also, but aren't they vulnerable to infiltration by Snikrot as well? Didn't do too well against Daemons either-insufficient firepower.

I'd have paid St.John to come and try his Immolator based Sisters army against Orks at the Baltimore GT, but he appears to be unavailable. Immolators can be penetrated by Lootas as well, so it is not a sure thing.

Maybe a more useful thread would be 'I beat Orks with this army, this is how, this is what the Orks might do differently, this is how I would adjust.'

InyokaMadoda wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Your numbers are worthless.

what an awesome contribution to the topic...

they might not be the best but i think they are one of the most well rounded and this give a strong general a very good tool for making a great list.

Actually, from a statistical point of view, this 'opinion' is not far wrong. There isn't a big enough sample to draw any meaningful conclusions from - only that it would appear to be the case that Orks are one of the stronger army choices. As to whether they are the strongest or not, you would need many more, controlled, results to actively say.

Without my stats head on, it's easy to see why people would come to this conclusion and I would say that, like many others already in this thread, I would vote them as a 'top tier' army.

A valid sample doesn't need to be large, it needs to be representative of the population under study and large enough.

The population to be studied needs to be defined. Since the 40K population is divided between tournament players and narrative players, and narrative players don't care about codex power, it may be reasonable to say that the population to be sampled is the tournament going population. In which case, this sample may well be representative. We do not know if the sample is large enough, since we don't know the total size of the tournament going population.

I don't think it's that the ork dex is the most powerfull. I think it's that it's one of the best all around books for the missions in the main book.

Orks lose little to no effectiveness in making a small kp count army. Almost every other race has to make concessions if they want to go small kp. The other races that do well with small kp would probably be Chaos Space Marines and Horde Nids, if tooled that way.

What this means is that orks are going into 2 out of 5 games (at least in the GT's) with an advantage. Not only do they have small amounts kill points but getting a point out of them takes a bit of work. You can't just blow up a tank or one or two obliterators and get an easy kp. You have to wipe out 15 loota's or 30 boyz to get your point.

Couple this with the fact that the army will have a high troop count which helps in the other two missions and you've got a very strong list.

I think if you are a serious tournament competitor you are going to sit down and analyze the mission types and you soon see that because of the kp set up mech lists are generally out so you have to run infantry. If you are going to run infantry I think the three best bets are orks, blood angel's, and chaos. People are still tooled for meq so orks seems to be a good choice for a serious tournament player.

Remember the game is just as much about match ups as mission so that random aspect will always be there as well.

Yes, yes they are. Orks are finally THE broken army. It's about f'in time! I am SICK of losing to MEQ players who don't even know the rules of the game, but happen to have picked the right models, or have a buddy who pointed them to the bestest toys.

I'm going to enjoy the orks little moment in the sun after not have a competitive 'dex for almost 10 years. Suck IT marine players, your little emperor worshiping days are OVER. The green tide is upon you!

Die die die!!!!!!!!!!

(Yes I'm joking.) It's hard to say what the best 'dex is, but it's good to have a decent shot with orks.

Orks have problems with Av14, 2+ saves and long ranged multishot weaponry. This problem cannot be irned out by lists it is inherent in the codex.

I concur that orks are doing well because so manty armies are tooled up with ap2 shooting.

For the toughst army, I would have to go with Spase Marienz, they have kept what they have got with a fw omissions got some nice new units and unlike most Codex have multiple choices that are tooled up for anti-horde.

What makes them nasty is that the anti horde units also have different fire modes or simultaneuos options to do other things, combat squads, sternguard and multiple ammo types for Whirlwinds counting here. A well set up marine list can multirole anti-MEQ, anti-vehicle, anti-monster, and anti-horde from the same list.