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i keep seeing in dex's saying that you can take a shotgun, but the gun profile is somewhat disheartening, i propose these old guns get upgraded to the 40k equal of a shinny new 12 gauge with SSG shell [used for boars]

so:
Shotgun
S:3 AP:- Range:12" asualt 3

Specail rules:
if within half range and shooting a shotgun it follows the following profile [do not apply to solid slug]:
S:4 AP:5 Assault 4

Solid slug:
the shotgun is loaded with solid slugs for big bugs and the like, the shot gun has the following profile:
S:6 AP:4 Range:12" Assault 1

Rules we use:

Solid Slug: R12" S4 AP4 Assault 2
Scatter Slug: R12 S3 AP5 Assault 2/Ignores Cover Saves.

BYE

I think they're great as is. They really come into their own when fighting in cover though.

Move, hit with 10 str 4 shots. Charge, cause casualties. If you take more casualties, run, you move faster in cover and get 3+ saves. Repeat.

Its not great, but you have a pretty nasty squad for 180 points

Why is it that homebrew rules are inevitably super-powered versions of the real thing. They're never a subtle or clever addition. Why is that?

All the house rules I've seen from HBMC makes me think that they don't play WH40k at his local gaming group....

The choice to move to shotgun instead of Lasgun is a very even trade-off, in my opinion, having less to do with realities and more to do with gaming practicalities. You lose the possibility of 12"+ but gain assured two shots at up to 12". Same damage done though. However I do like the idea of increased damage at reduced range, but the number of shots at closer range should be reduced (less spread), and with slugs, remember, the bolter fires massive exploding bullets.

He's said as much; that his gaming group doesn't use the 40k rules out of the box.

About the Bolter: Massive exploding armour piecing bullets, with more armour piercing capability than a .50 cal, taking the heavy stubber as an HMG.

I was just thinking i real life with all the different Shells and distanceb that you take into account when shooting [i shoot alot, mostly small things but every now and then i get to hunt boars and the like] and i have the option of heavier shells and solid slugs and are very power full at short range and ok at medium

Standard shotgun shells are really not all that powerful, relative to bolters and heavier weapons. The reality of it is that a shotgun is all about stopping force and not at all about busting through armor. I think the main differences between different typical shells are really going to be a matter of strength and not armor piercing.

Shotgun
Shot: S3 AP:-* Range:12" assualt 2
Slug: S4 AP:-* Range 12" assault 2
If within half range AP5
Breaching Round: S5 AP:- Rangeoint Blank* Assault 1
*May be used when in base contact with a vehicle or bunker, but may roll 2d6 for armor penetration.

Execution Round: S4 AP5 Range: 18 Assault 2*
*Reroll missed to hit rolls.

Flechette Round: S3 AP5 R18 Assault 2, Ignore Cover

Dragon Round: S4 AP:-* R: Template Assault 1, Get Hot!

So to represent the stopping power of the shotgun:

"Like being kicked in the gut": Any unit that takes wounds from a model armed with a shotgun has it's initiative reduced by 2 for the first round of combat if the model using the shotgun charges them this turn.

I don't know about that. If any sort of rule like existed, why would it only be for shotguns and not all the various sorts of larger weapons.

Squig_herder:

Sure, but the problem with real life vis-a-vis 40k is mapping from known items (autoguns = AR15, shotgun = shotgun, .50 cal = heavy stubber) is that we often forget 40k weapons are heavily abstracted and often hideously powerful.

Take the idea of a shotgun with Assault 3. That would make it equal in rate of fire to a machine gun when even high rate of fire weapons like Stormbolters are Assault 2. S6 AP4 is an anti-tank grenade.

aka_mythos' number seem more 'realistic' if by realistic we take the equivalences above and extend them according to the 40k system.

But the problem with some of his stuff is that they load advantage on advantage; these things multiply out. Part of the game is making weapon profiles a live option, rather than a option that's always passed over. Making slug rounds Assault 2 just like shot rounds makes shot superfluous. Why shoot at S3 when S4 gives you the same number of potential kills, and more likely at that?

I'd set it at:


Shotgun Ammo

Scattershot
Rng12", S3, AP- Assault 2

Slugs
Rng12" S4, AP- Assault 1

Breaching Round
Rng2" S6 AP- Assault 1, Lance

Flechette
Rng18" S3 AP5 Assault 1

Dragon
RngTemplate S2 AP6 Heavy 1

Executioner
Rng18" S4 AP5 Heavy 1, Sharp-shooter, Arbites only

Nurglitch wrote:Why is it that homebrew rules are inevitably super-powered versions of the real thing. They're never a subtle or clever addition. Why is that?

Super-powered? You call the Shotgun above super-powered? You're mad Nurglitch. Utterly mad.

All Ive done is take the rules for the Shotgun from 2nd Ed and translated them into current 40K, and reduced its range. Furthermore I tend not to look at things in a vacuum. I look at what these Shotguns do compared to what the units that can get them (Scouts) are giving up whent they take them.

Maybe it doesn't need the two shots, maybe it can be AP5 rather than 4 on the solid shot - this is what playtesting is for. You don't work for GW so I assume you understand the concept of playtesting, yes?

Your mistake Nurglitch is that you come into these proposed rules forums, assume any suggestion is set in stone, and then go and make some pathetic comment about overpoweredness, nitpicking details and generally adding nothing to the thread.

BYE

By and large, the Imperial Shotgun doesn't need much of a change. It's a basic weapon, not a Plasma Gun!

I'd consider to differentiate between Frag (shot) and Krak (slug) ammo, but no further than that...

Frag - R12" S3 AP- Assault 2
Krak - R12" S4 AP4 Assault 1

But having a dozen flavors of rounds cannot be productive.

Nurglitch wrote:

Take the idea of a shotgun with Assault 3. That would make it equal in rate of fire to a machine gun when even high rate of fire weapons like Stormbolters are Assault 2. S6 AP4 is an anti-tank grenade.

I failed to not notice that too.

I've never had an opinion on AP5 until I started Eldar a few months ago. I do think that they should be AP 5 or 6, however. The follow-up charge is still the only reason not to use bolters, so AP 6 is only really unfair against 3 armies that have too many models in the first place.
Nerf Scouts aren't nearly as effective against IG as they were.

You know the strange part in all of this - I agree with Nurglitch - it's just the way he goes about these proposed rules threads, belitting everyone as though they haven't thought everything through instantly, like he's some sort of God-damned Rules Whisperer who know what's balanced and what's not just from reading it once.

Looking at it, having more than one shot doesn't make a lot of sense. The Assault 2 big is supposed to be when they use 'both barrels'... but that doesn't work in a current 40K context because 2 shots represents a heavy machine gun (like an Autocannon). Even sub-machine guns like Autoguns and Bolters don't get two shots by default (at closer ranges they of course do, but as standard the multitude of shots they fire is abstracted to a single shot).

I will be changing my rules to Assault 1 for both of them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But having a dozen flavors of rounds cannot be productive.

But for Sternguard it is?

BYE

You know what, this is why i love dakkadakka compared to warseer and others as here we are a tight and smart and friendly community where we can thrash out ideas and be taken seriously, while having fun and having a chat

It was that or those other guys. What the hell were they called? Deathwatch?

Nurglitch wrote:He's said as much; that his gaming group doesn't use the 40k rules out of the box.

About the Bolter: Massive exploding armour piecing bullets, with more armour piercing capability than a .50 cal, taking the heavy stubber as an HMG.

Combat shotgun: Str 4 AP- R12 Assault 2 This makes them impressive short range, where they should be, but has the draw back of being lim,ited to short range. Armor piercing is the antithesis of shot. If you want armor piercing you need high velocity rounds, which is what shotguns "aint."

The positive of a shotgun is that statistically, it imparts the most energy to a target of any round developed currently (that I am aware of anyway). That is well represented by the higher strength. It would be comparable to a bolter round for that reason.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You know the strange part in all of this - I agree with Nurglitch - it's just the way he goes about these proposed rules threads, belitting everyone as though they haven't thought everything through instantly, like he's some sort of God-damned Rules Whisperer who know what's balanced and what's not just from reading it once.

Looking at it, having more than one shot doesn't make a lot of sense. The Assault 2 big is supposed to be when they use 'both barrels'... but that doesn't work in a current 40K context because 2 shots represents a heavy machine gun (like an Autocannon). Even sub-machine guns like Autoguns and Bolters don't get two shots by default (at closer ranges they of course do, but as standard the multitude of shots they fire is abstracted to a single shot).

I will be changing my rules to Assault 1 for both of them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But having a dozen flavors of rounds cannot be productive.

But for Sternguard it is?

BYE

I'm ok with Assault 2 for standard shot.
-Fluff: current combat 12 gauges are autolaoders and can be fired both extremely quickly and reliably (did you know the Rooskies invented a combat shotgun based on the AK design-yikes!)

http://weaponsvault.net/firearms/shotguns/saiga-12K-combat

One of the significant superiorities of semi-auto shotguns in comparison to pump-action weapons is the high possible rate of fire. Even an average shooter firing the 'Saiga-12' can shoot a series of five targets in a bit more than two seconds; a difficult task for any pump-action shotgun regardless of the skill of an operator.

-Game (more important). Considering its already poor range, at A1 its just a bolt pistol isn't it? Its not an impressive choice at that point.

some things you have to remember about shotguns.

while they can be accurate at very close quarters, they have very little range to speak of
while they have good stopping power, they give little armour penetration
breaching rounds can be used to open armoured doors, not tanks.

very few armed forces around the world use shot guns as a main assaulting weapon, the reasons being, you cant hit someone over 75 yards away with any decent force, and within that ranged body armour often can make shots useless. i remember reading an article about shotgun useage by us armed forces in iraq. the overall opinion was that, while shot guns can be very useful in clearing buildings where the range and the illequipped state of the enemy can make a huge difference, in ranged fire fights they are next to useless. also consider that an armour piercing, 2" wide solid shot that explodes inside you is only S4 AP5, and lasguns (comparable to most modern small arms) are only S3 AP-. i think shot guns have so need to be changed. i could understand them being equipped with special ammo like sternguard but they do not need and increase in strength, rate of fire or lower AP, because it is just not justifiable gamewise or fluffwise

Has anyone noticed in this thread that the current profile for a Marine shotgun is STR 4 Assault 2?

I used them in the tournament this week for the first time in 8 years(I used them once in Third Ed.) intermixed with some close combat scouts and they are much more viable now. You basically get an extra str 4 shot on the way in, just incase you fail to reach them on the assault. Other than that pistols being assault 1 means the CC scouts still get one shot, but once in combat can take an extra CC swing at str 4. So it evens out in the end.

Basically the new shotguns in the marine 'dex are viable options and much improved over the last few editions.

We've been using them exactly as per their respective codices, with the exception that the S3 Shotguns cause 2 hits on a unit for every successful BS roll rather than one. (To represent spread).

If your spread is wide enough to hit two people you're not going to do enough damage to either to take them out of action. Unless they happen to be hugging... and that's a very 40k reason to hit two models.

Yeah, I agree Just go with what is in the marine dex!

Frazzled wrote:-Fluff: current combat 12 gauges are autolaoders and can be fired both extremely quickly and reliably (did you know the Rooskies invented a combat shotgun based on the AK design-yikes!)

It's still only a semi-auto. Yeah, it's an improvement over pump-action shotguns (which are themselves a clear improvement over break-action loaders). But still, meh.

Now what's *really* interesting is an actual full-auto shotgun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer

Note that it's an American design. Dating back to the 80s. And it's a bullpup!

Regwon wrote:while they can be accurate at very close quarters, they have very little range to speak of

very few armed forces around the world use shot guns as a main assaulting weapon,

aka_mythos wrote:If your spread is wide enough to hit two people you're not going to do enough damage to either to take them out of action. Unless they happen to be hugging... and that's a very 40k reason to hit two models.

OTOH, shotguns are very popular weapons for trench warfare, for the reasons given above...

Also, naval boarding / defense.

And jungle warfare.

Or urban warfare.

Basically, anytime you don't have the luxury of engaging at long distances, a shotgun is a good choice.

Generally shotguns are kept at semi. I've seen multiple autoloaders, but only one auto, and that was for mounting on vehicle. The recoil is ferocious.

Besides, I'd rather have to only pop one round with a semi per target then fire a burst with a submachine gun at each target. The semi is faster.

but again my central argument is game based. A Str 4 A1 12" is just a boltpistol but without the bonus for cc.

Frazzled wrote:but again my central argument is game based. A Str 4 A1 12" is just a boltpistol but without the bonus for cc.

The stats are Str4 A2 12". So it just moves the extra attack to the shooting before going in. But if the combat lasts for two or more rounds then the pistols are a better choice because you will keep getting the extra CC attack. So really it comes down to if you are going to be shooting on the move at things as you pass and not assaulting, in which case shotties win, or using the scouts as assaulters, in which case pistols win.

True that (was thinking of STs with shotguns actually).

If you are going real world, then think of it like this. Hitting someone in the chest with 00 buck is the equivalent power wise of shooting them 9 times simultaniously with a 38. In game terms what would a 38 be? str 2 max? so what are the odds of wounding t3 with 9 str 2 hits? Works out to about the same as the real world stop rate for a buckshot torso hit. Any way all of the above does not matter as reality has no bearing on a game with 10 foot tall armor clad marines. Still I think the the most realistic profile would be

Buckshot = str 3, ap-, twin linked.
Slug = str 4, ap-