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I'm trying to work out what the various titles that Marine Captains get actually mean.

Master of the Fleet, the Watch, the Arsenal, Recruits, Forge - those are all pretty simple. But there's a couple others that I'm not 100% on and wondered if anyone else had any idea.

The first is the Master of the Marches. In the 3rd Ed Marine Codex, it's actually Captain Sicarius who is the Master of the Marches back when he was the 5th Company Captain.

The next is the 'Chief Victualler'.

Dictionary.com defined a victualer (one L) as:

1. a person who furnishes victuals, esp. a sutler.
2. a supply ship.
3. Also called licensed victualer. British. the keeper of an inn or tavern, esp. one licensed to sell liquor.

Also, especially British, vict·ual·ler.

Are we to assume that the Chief Victualler in a Marine army is basically their Head Grocer?

Seems a bit... odd...

BYE

Victualler was one of the old titles for Quartermaster.

I would assume that a SM Chief Victualler is in charge of all logistics/supply issues for the chapter.



Master of the Marches harks back (historically) to 13th century Britain. The Welsh and Scottish borders and the territory around them were referred to as the 'Marches' and the nobles who ruled those areas were called the 'Marcher Lords'.

On this basis a SM Master of the Marches would be in charge of defending the borders of the SM chapter's home territory (he probably would also have responsibility for pickets and guard duty when the chapter was fighting together).



Hope that helps!

Quite useful, but a followup pair of questions:

Ok, so if the Victualler does supply/logistics, what does the Master of the Arsenal do?

And if the March guy defends the borders, what does the Master of the Watch do?

BYE

Presumably MotArsenal looks after supplies of guns, ammo and maybe armour, while CVictualler looks after everything else (food, clothes, fuel, medical supplies, tools etc.)

I forgot about MotWatch
He would look after guards, pickets, etc (I assume he may also have responsibility for Intelligence gathering), leaving MotMarches to defend the border.

Wow... awesome job. I can just see it now...

High-Level Inquisitor Type Guy: Captain Agemann, what title do you hold?
Agemann: I am the Regent of Ultramar and the Lord of House Macragge. It is I who oversee's the homeworld of our Chapter and rule whenever our glorious Chapter Master is away in battle.
Inquisitor: And you, Captain Sicarius, what title do you hold?
Sicarius: I am the Master of the Watch, my Lord. I see to the defence of our glorious realm, and ensure that my reach extends far beyond the borders of Ultramar.
Inquisitor: Captain Ardias, what title do you hold?
Ardius: I Command the Arsenal, Lord Inquisitor. It is through me that the weapons of war are given to my Battle Brothers, that we might purge the mutant, alien and hertic from the Emperor's Galaxy.
Inquisitor: Captain Idaeus, what title do you hold?
Idaeus: I command the glorious fleet of the Ultramarines. Through me the fire of absolution can be brought down on any of the Imperium's foes, and none can withstand my wrath!
Inquisitor: Captain Antilochus?
Antilochus: I hold the honour of training our recruits, Lord Inquisitor. As Master of Recruits I ensure that all who enter the chapter emerge as peerless Warriors of Ultramar, ready to face whatever hellspawned evil the galaxy tries to inflict upon us!
Inquisitor: And you, Captain Epathus?
Epathus: It is my duty and honour as Master of the Watch to guard the borders of Ultramar. Under my unending gaze none shall pass into this realm without permission.
Inquisitor: And finally, Captain Ixion, what glorious title do you hold.
Ixion: I uhh... yeah I make sure everyoine's got enough food. And blankets. And cutlery. Oh and fuel. And bandages. Y'know. That sort of stuff.
Inquisitor: Uhh... Sicarius, what was it you did again?


Not a really great position to hold methinks...



BYE

I dunno an army travels on it's stomach...there have been a lot of battles won and lost due to lack of army provisions.

Frankly to me it makes a LOT of sense, especially since you need your most trusted in that position to stop shall we say 'favored service'.

The allies had HUGE prolems with it in WWII and really imagine how many calories it takes to feed a space marine 6000+?

Maybe a chapter has more than Marines?
The Space Marines use alot of servitors and Human servants.And some chapters with a homeworld even have their own PDF.

So a title must not be important in battle to be critical to a chapters existance.
The quartermaster may deal with other organizations to get those supplys,which a chapter may not produce themselves.
The master of the marches may care about intelligence and patrols.

But i would suggest the codex at page 16 plus 17.
Example of UM organization:
Agemman = regent = vice-presi of calgar
Sicarius = Watch = defender of the homeworld
Fabian ( why ardias?) = arsenal = vehicles for the companys
Idaeus = fleet = space ships of the chapter
Galenus = borders = patrols and control of associated planets
Ephatus = Rites = traditions and ceremonys
Ixion = supplies = food and fuel for all (marines and servants)
Numitor = no title
Sinon = no title
Antilochus = recruts = training and recrutment.

There is also a master secretary (chief bureaucrat), a chief armourer and a master for all those independent wings :
Librarium,Apothecarium,Reclusium,Forge.

Either way, these titles sound distinctly vanilla, especially in the 41st millenium. Looking after the (spartan) posessions of a chapter must be pretty menial.

Why should a title "invented" by smurfs not be vanilla?

Since most titles are given to captains of battle-companys there may be a chance that those dutys wouldn't distract him
from his Main job of leading 100 Marines?
Plus to command hundreds of servitors and servants may not be this easy.
But in general,its GW to "copy-and-paste" knights templar of 11/12th century when "inventing" titles of SM-Captains.

Don't forget that all those supplies have to get where they're going, and the space lanes of the 41st Millenium are not friendly places. (ask Capt Lysander :p) Chances are Any marines assigned to escort supply fleets likely answer directly to the Master of the Victuals.

Considering that a modern day chaplain is more a psychiatrist who caters for the spiritual and psychological needs of the troops, than a lunatic propaganda spreading warrior priest. It's possible that a victualler could have developed into something different than the modern day version as well.

1hadhq wrote:Fabian ( why ardias?) = arsenal = vehicles for the companys

I was basing my list of names off the 3rd Ed Codex. I don't own... uhh... a full copy of the new Marine Dex, so wasn't aware they had new names.

So Captain Fabian is back hey? He was the 3rd Company Captain during the Battle for Macragge. Wonder what happened to Ardias... he was the 3rd Company Captain in the 3rd Ed 'Dex and, surprisingly, showed up in the PC/PS2 game Firewarrior.

BYE

Ardias was cpt in 4th ed. Could be in 5th ed also if you rely at the UM banner at page 23.
Fabian is cpt of the 3rd at the "chapter-organization" at page 17.
Maybe the UM have a "reserve" cpt to replace a loss?
Or GW doesn't know who is actual cpt? They have Idaeus as "lost but his heraldry used by new cpt". :S
The names under the banner could be old,looks like they copied the page from the codex/2004.
Chapter-organization maybe newer,so I wonder that Idaeus is still in.

Now they have a 3rd company cpt in the painting section (page109) but not given him a name.

Idaeus is dead 4 good

Oh wait... this is GW... Ideus should be... erm... back on his boots in no time.

Although a pretty stupid title, considering that the ultra smurfs, and many other chapters, are also host to large contingents of guard, the guy who gives everyone food is a pretty important job.

Ideus: "Ixion is a fething loser! I blow up planets while he sits on his nurlge sizes @$$ all day watching emeril"

Ixion: " NO SOUP FOR YOU!"

Ideus after years of no food: (dead... or is he?"

Quartermaster/Victualer would be an integral role in ensuring Chapter and Realm security when you realize that the position's primary responsibility is to make sure that everyone has enough to eat. Ixion would monitor Ultramar's breadbasket, ensuring harvests and tithes were sufficient to maintain both the Chapter's fighting and servant forces and the civilian populace. He would have to oversee a truly massive distribution network.

It might sound unglamorous, but without efficient food distribution, the rest of the system breaks down pretty quickly.

But Marines can eat anything. Literally anything. I don't think they'd mind.

Besides, the Companies are probably not hanging around the Holy Club House all the time - they're out there fighting - so the Head Chef can't be everywhere at once.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Fabian ( why ardias?) = arsenal = vehicles for the companys

I was basing my list of names off the 3rd Ed Codex. I don't own... uhh... a full copy of the new Marine Dex, so wasn't aware they had new names.

Amazing how many people have had the color sections fall out of their books. "Is your Codex... shoddy?"

So Captain Fabian is back hey? He was the 3rd Company Captain during the Battle for Macragge. Wonder what happened to Ardias... he was the 3rd Company Captain in the 3rd Ed 'Dex and, surprisingly, showed up in the PC/PS2 game Firewarrior.

BYE

Ardias was killed by the Tau during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, just prior to the Battle for Macragge.

@1hadq - where do get the 'copy and paste the titles from 11th/12th century Knights Templar' from?

They didn't have a Master of the Watch, Arsenal, Fleet, Recruits or Forge. They did have a chief victualler, but he was called the 'Drapier' and every banner of about a dozen knights had one.

[rant]
can everyone STOP reading fething Dan Brown books and start reading some proper fething history books...
[/rant]

H.B.M.C. wrote:But Marines can eat anything. Literally anything. I don't think they'd mind.

Besides, the Companies are probably not hanging around the Holy Club House all the time - they're out there fighting - so the Head Chef can't be everywhere at once.

BYE

Marines can eat anything, but the other 50 billion people aren't as robust. It's a reflection of Ultramarine background material and Guilliman fluff that they dedicate so much attention to maintaining their infrastructure.

Victualer has nothing to do with chef, in the same way that your neighborhood grocer doesn't come to your house and cook for you.

While space marines CAN eat everything, that doesn't mean that they DO. I don't care if I can subsist on $h!t, when I get home from a crusade at 8:00 at night, I expect some fething steak!

Also, I don't think that many people have the stones to tell calgar to eat $h!t.

Some of these titles may be specific to the UM and are more about adminstrating the realm of Ultramar than the Ultramarine chapter. It's also possible they focus more on the non-marines attached to the chapter than the marines. Most of the fleet is crewed by non-marines, and I'd guess that a lot of repair and maintenance is done by non-marines (but overseen by the techmarines). Some of these titles may be mostly ceremonial/figurehead and others do most of the real work. It'd be like being the Head Coach of the Oakland Raiders - you're the figurehead, but really have limited power.

I'd guess that
Master of the Arsenal - oversees all weapons, armor, and other items that marines use to wage war
Chief Victualler - oversees supplies for the chapter serfs, menials, and other non-marines. Mostly a figurehead, and probably has a high-ranking non-marine do most of the work and report to him.

As a result, the MotA is a more-important/higher rank, and the CV, if he does a good job, would get promoted into it at some point.

Similarly, I'd guess that Master of the Marches is responsible for the borders of Ultramar, but the Master of the Watch is responsible for defense of the chapter keep. MotM is important, but MotW is seen as more important/significant.

An Army lives on its stomache and supplies so uh, his job is actually incredibly important. It probably is one of the highest ranking ones.

Marines (hurr!) are regularly described in the fluff as operating for weeks, months, even years, unsupported and surviving. It all depends on what the title does. I would guess that marines put more weight on keeping their revered wargear (remember, this is a dark age, where if a marine's armor fails him, his comrades may believe it was because the wearer didn't maintain it well enough and that offended the armor's sprirt) operational than the guy who tries to get them a hot meal in the field (when they could eat any native plant, and their system should be able to digest it and deal with any poison, parasites, or disease that is present in it). iirc, in the fluff, marines are fed some sort of high-protein gruel that tastes awful, but is highly nutritious. It really depends on what the responsibilities are, and I'm guessing at MofA and CV's roles. And while CV is important, it's probably not seen as presitigous as MotA. And, I'm guessing that CV may have more to do with feeding and clothing the chapter's serfs and attendants than the actual marines (who are armed and armored by the MotA).

It's easy to think that weapons are more important than food until everybody runs out of water and dies.

sourclams wrote:It's easy to think that weapons are more important than food until everybody runs out of water and dies.

Doesn't space marine power armour recycle their pee?

I'm sure it does!

Pariah Press wrote:Amazing how many people have had the color sections fall out of their books. "Is your Codex... shoddy?

Colour and background sections. And the front and back cover. In fact, I had to convert it to PDF before the rest of the book disintegrated. Strange huh?

Pariah Press wrote:Ardias was killed by the Tau during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, just prior to the Battle for Macragge.

Where's it say that?

And if so... wonder why they picked him to be a main character in Firewarrior.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:Amazing how many people have had the color sections fall out of their books. "Is your Codex... shoddy?

Colour and background sections. And the front and back cover. In fact, I had to convert it to PDF before the rest of the book disintegrated. Strange huh?

It's a sad, but all-too-common story.

Pariah Press wrote:Ardias was killed by the Tau during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, just prior to the Battle for Macragge.

Where's it say that?

And if so... wonder why they picked him to be a main character in Firewarrior.

BYE

I double-checked my sources, and it looks like US WD 255, p. 17 says that he was killed in the Joran retaliation against the Tau Empire. Whether this was part of the Damocles Gulf Crusade or seperate isn't clear to me.

I haven't read Fire Warrior, so I can't really comment on that. Should I read it?

Firewarrior is a fun book, it's an interesting read, and was worth the time. However, I will add to that by saying that the main hero is a Firewarrior, therefore his enemies are reduced to bulmbing morons, allowing him to kill them all without breaking a sweat or through heavy intervention of Deus Ex Machina.

The foes he face include:

Raptors Chapter Combat Squad + Librarian

Raptors Chapter Command Squad + Captain

Chaos Dreadnought

Obliterator

Crew of a Warlord Titan, all of which are Chaos Marines

All four Greater Daemons (although he has help for that fight)

Fun book as long as you don't get too annoyed by a Firewarrior wiping out squads of Marines.

BYE

Pariah Press wrote: I double-checked my sources, and it looks like US WD 255, p. 17 says that he was killed in the Joran retaliation against the Tau Empire. Whether this was part of the Damocles Gulf Crusade or seperate isn't clear to me.

You wouldn't have the text from that by any chance? And what was the article about?

BYE

Chimera_Calvin wrote:

[rant]
can everyone STOP reading fething Dan Brown books and start reading some proper fething history books...
[/rant]

NO!