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You get to take one unit of Servitors for each Master of the Forge and Techmarine in your army. Does this include the Techmarine Gunner that comes with the Thunderfire Cannon?

I was curious about this too. I don't have my book in front of me, but what I decided at the time was, no. The entry for the servitors says that you can take one unit for every Master of the Forge or Techmarine in your list. The Techmarine Gunner is not a Techmarine per his statline entry (which labels him as a Techmarine Gunner) despite the unit entry calling him a Techmarine and his statline being the same as the elite choice.

Brice

His stat line entry calls him a Techmarine. The unit comp lists him as a Techmarine Gunner.

I knew it was one way or the other. It definitely raises the question. I was playing with the idea of a really heavily themed Techmarine list, which could mean 8 servitor units if gunners are allowed to take them. That's a ton of heavy bolters. . .

Brice

I was leaning the same way, though I'm only planing two Masters, three Techmarines (including one thunderfire gunner) and three Dreadnoughts.

Is the Techmarine ever stated to be a "Master of the Forge"? they seem like two distinct elements to me. Much like an Inquisitor and an Inquisitor Lord.

Both Masters of the Forge and Techmarines, being separate things, both still allow a unit of Servitors for each one taken.

I think that Techmarines manning Thunderfire Cannons count as Techmarines for the purposes of Servitors.

The problem with this servitor-heavy plan is that, until an FAQ comes out, each Servitor unit takes up an Elites choice.

what page has the rule stating you can field a squad of servitors when you take a MotF?

G

I dont think he can take servitors if he could it would be stated in thunderfire cannon entry that he could like extra crew to ork guns.

Aduro wrote:I was leaning the same way, though I'm only planing two Masters, three Techmarines (including one thunderfire gunner) and three Dreadnoughts.

Very unfluffy.

Unless it's an Iron Hands successor.

MinMax wrote:I think that Techmarines manning Thunderfire Cannons count as Techmarines for the purposes of Servitors.

The problem with this servitor-heavy plan is that, until an FAQ comes out, each Servitor unit takes up an Elites choice.

I don't think so. Nowhere does it say they take up a slot. There is a box that appears on the elite page describing them. That doesn't make them elites.

Sort of a moot point anyway. The servitors taken by the Techmarine Gunner cannot join him. They are a unit, and the TMG and TFC are a unit. So the servitors will be useless half the time, unless the TFC is destroyed, and the TMG can run over and boss them around. I'd never have an objection to someone putting all those points into a servitor squad instead of more marines.

mikhaila wrote:

MinMax wrote:I think that Techmarines manning Thunderfire Cannons count as Techmarines for the purposes of Servitors.

The problem with this servitor-heavy plan is that, until an FAQ comes out, each Servitor unit takes up an Elites choice.

I don't think so. Nowhere does it say they take up a slot. There is a box that appears on the elite page describing them. That doesn't make them elites.

Sort of a moot point anyway. The servitors taken by the Techmarine Gunner cannot join him. They are a unit, and the TMG and TFC are a unit. So the servitors will be useless half the time, unless the TFC is destroyed, and the TMG can run over and boss them around. I'd never have an objection to someone putting all those points into a servitor squad instead of more marines.

You could use the same argument for every unit in the codex. Just because the Land Raider Crusader entry is in the HS section doesn't mean it's a HS choice. The fact that units that aren't meant to count as a slot choice is so clearly defined should be an indication that they're meant to be a separate choice.

So does that mean Telion uses up a Troop slot? He's got a separate box from the scouts.

Aduro wrote:So does that mean Telion uses up a Troop slot? He's got a separate box from the scouts.

Telion is a squad upgrade. Servitors are a separate unit.

Derek,
Even if we assume you are right, and servitors DO count as an elites choice, it still doesn't matter. Codex special rules override the rule book. THe servitor special rule states that one squad may be taken for EVERY Master of the forge or techmarine. It might be rules lawyering, but this time the rules lawyering actually makes us follow the letter, and the intent of the rules.
So, I guess Marines can now legally have 11 elites slots? LOL

I'd say it's not possible to take the servitors with the TFC's TM. Anywhere a Tech Marine is mentioned, he's called a Tech Marine. Anywhere a Master of The Forge is mentioned, he's a Master of The Forge. A Techmarine Gunner is a Techmarine Gunner, not a Techmarine. I noticed that they call him just a Techmarine on pg. 73, but that's not the unit's army list entry. Pg. 142 has the unit's entry, and that is what you refer to when making your army, not the fluff pages in the sections before, and that entry exclusivly calls him a Techmarine Gunner, not a normal Techmarine, and the only referance to a normal techmarine is that they share the same special rules. The Servitor entry says MoTF and TMs only. If the TFC gunner was allowed to take servitors, he'd have been mentioned there too. A TFC gunner can't be classified as a Techmarine any more then a MoTF can. They share the same general rules, but they are not the same unit.

Anyways, just my oppinion, but I wouldn't allow someone to take Servitors for a TFC's gunner.

cuda1179 wrote:Derek,
Even if we assume you are right, and servitors DO count as an elites choice, it still doesn't matter. Codex special rules override the rule book. THe servitor special rule states that one squad may be taken for EVERY Master of the forge or techmarine. It might be rules lawyering, but this time the rules lawyering actually makes us follow the letter, and the intent of the rules.
So, I guess Marines can now legally have 11 elites slots? LOL

Yet in every place where a codex lets you break the FOC it's spelled out. It's not here.

Which makes Telion a seperate troops choice, and Chronus a seperate Heavy Support choice. That'll teach them to think we're smart enough to realize the gray box in this codex means doesn't take a FoC slot. As for whether he's a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner. I'd say page 71 pretty clearly makes him a Techmarine... as he loses his IC and Blessing Of the Omnissiah special rules until the cannon is destroyed.

Oh, I don't doubt that he's a Techmarine. As far as the unit himself goes he seems to be identical. but for the purpose of the FOC and army list entries, he's detailed as a gunner, not an ordinary techmarine, and nowhere in the servitor entry does it say that the gunner can take servitors as well. He's got all the stats, gear, rules, and to all intents and purposes -is- a techmarine... but only once the TFC is gone. Untill that happens, he's a gunner and is bound to the limits on his Army List Entry on page 142.

Breton wrote:Which makes Telion a seperate troops choice, and Chronus a seperate Heavy Support choice. That'll teach them to think we're smart enough to realize the gray box in this codex means doesn't take a FoC slot.

Except their rules say both are upgrades for another unit.

Actually not quite right there derek, telions rules do say he is an upgrade for the sergeant of a scout squad, but chronus simply says he is "assigned" to a tank, not that he is an upgrade, if you are to view the techmarine servitors as a seperate elite entry, then Breton is right in that it would also apply to Chronus.

Drunkspleen wrote:Actually not quite right there derek, telions rules do say he is an upgrade for the sergeant of a scout squad, but chronus simply says he is "assigned" to a tank, not that he is an upgrade, if you are to view the techmarine servitors as a seperate elite entry, then Breton is right in that it would also apply to Chronus.

This was discussed in another thread already, the rules for him specifically say "Chronus is always bought as an upgrade." It's on page 89 of the codex.

I don't know how much more black and white the rules can be in regards to him being an upgrade than to say it outright.

Hmmmm if going by the logic that the model in the TFC is a Techmarine gunner and is different then a TechMarine then I can't field him? You know why? Because a Techmarine Gunner doesn't have a statline RAW!

However, there is this statline in the TFC entry for a techmarine.

OR MAYBE a Techmarine Gunner is just a Techmarine and I can use that statline, therefore I can take a unit of servitors that have a 50% chance of mindlock until the TFC is destroyed.

Every now and then RAW gets taken too far.

Nowhere does it say(as far as I know) that you can't take something if it doesn't have a statline in the summary. It says what gear the TMG gets, and in the earlier section reminds that said 'TMG' has the same stats and rules as a TM, with the exceptions listed in the TFC entry, and the fact that he's not actually a TM. He's a TMG. Regardless of what his rules may be, even if he's identical to a TM, the fact that he has a different name(and therefor is a different unit) means that he cannot take servitors because a TMG is not mentioned as being one of the types of TM that can take servitors.

I belive honour gaurd and command squads fall into the same boat as servitors. All of which do not take up an extra HQ or Elite slot.

We sure need that FAQ!

G

asugradinwa wrote:Hmmmm if going by the logic that the model in the TFC is a Techmarine gunner and is different then a TechMarine then I can't field him? You know why? Because a Techmarine Gunner doesn't have a statline RAW!

However, there is this statline in the TFC entry for a techmarine.

OR MAYBE a Techmarine Gunner is just a Techmarine and I can use that statline, therefore I can take a unit of servitors that have a 50% chance of mindlock until the TFC is destroyed.

Every now and then RAW gets taken too far.

they would only have a 50% chance if the techmarine is dead. if he is with them, they pass the mindlock test automatically.

Strimen wrote:I belive honour gaurd and command squads fall into the same boat as servitors. All of which do not take up an extra HQ or Elite slot.

The difference being that Honor Guard and Command Squads actually have rules to back that up and servitors don't.