Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Under the unit info section, a Master of the Forge is listed as having both a Servo-arm and a Servo-harness, however under the Army List in the back, he's only listed as having a Servo-harness.

Servo-harness: A servo harness gives the Techmarine an extra servo-arm (giving him two servo-arm attacks), ect ect ect

Note that it doesn't say it gives you two Servo-arms, but an extra one. It only specifies a Techmarine, not a Master of the Forge as having two attacks from it. If the Master of the Forge does not have one to start with, would this extra Servo-arm be his only Servo-arm?

Related question. If it's deemed that he should indeed have two, which I would argue intent, what happens when he trades his Servo-harness for a Conversion Beamer? Would he only trade the extra Servo-arm and the ranged weapons, as that is what the harness upgrades gives you, or would he lose both Servo-arms and have just the beamer?

"The Master of the Forge is the Chapter's most senior Techmarine..." quoted from top of pg 70.

So by the rules, he is still a techmarine.

His basic Wargear allotment include a Servo-Arm (1 powerfist attack) and a Servo-Arm Harness (+1 Servo-Arm (power fist) attack).

When equipped with a conversion beamer, he trades out his Servo-Arm Harness and boltgun. Therefore, his new Wargear allotment would be Servo Arm and Conversion beamer.

You will notice that the techmarine entry offers not to take a servo harness but to "upgrade servo-arm to servo-harness" which to me suggests the prior being replaced by the latter.

As such I would assume the fact that the servo harness only claims to have "an extra servo arm" rather than two is just a result of the order things are written in the techmarine entry, but there is no doubt that the servo-harness says it grants two servo-arm attacks, a twin linked plas pistol and a flamer.

Because of this I think it plays as such

Master of the forge has just a servo harness (2 servo-arm attacks, TL plas pistol, flamer) he can choose to replace it with conversion beamer, in which case he does not have a servo arm per the wargear he is given in the army list (note: he can still attempt repairs without one)

Huhn. There's a difference between the Wargear listed under the unit description and the profile entry. Interesting. I'd err on the side of caution and dump all servo arms when taking the conversion beamer.

Aduro wrote:

Related question. If it's deemed that he should indeed have two, which I would argue intent, what happens when he trades his Servo-harness for a Conversion Beamer? Would he only trade the extra Servo-arm and the ranged weapons, as that is what the harness upgrades gives you, or would he lose both Servo-arms and have just the beamer?

Its "replace servo-harness+bolter with conversion beamer". So he loses all ranged weapons for the beamer.
Since a servo-harness is an upgrade, it could be that a MotF has only one servoarm then left.

option is: have a servo-harness (2 arms) and ranged weapons vs conversion beamer and 1 servo arm.
Why? because the use of a conversion beamer won't stop him from taking the option of either thunderhammer or powersword.
So a C-B may be shoulder mounted and needing 1 hand for it, leaving 1 hand for a CCW.
Plus to reduce his servo arm and harness to 0 would reduce also his repair abilities by 2.

The 2+ is from the armor, not the harness. The harness contains 1 extra servo arm; therefore either a MOTF would only have 1 servo arm with a harness or have a sevro arm when he loses the harness.

While not specifically said I think it is assumed that a MOTF has a servo arm if the harness is removed. Otherwise a MOTF and a Techmarine Gunner (on a TFC) only have 1 servo arm with a harness.

Just think of a MOTF as an upgraded Tech Marine with some special rules. I'm 99.9% sure that’s what GW wanted.

See? More complicated than you'd think at first when you get down and analyze it. As said I'm quite sure the Intent is a Servo-arm plus a harness, replacing the harness and leaving a single Servo-arm when you take a beamer. But that's not exactly RAW. Wonder how long until we see the first FAQ on the new `dex.

I find it interesting that so many people seem to think he gets a servo arm when he replaces the harness, I never even considered it before this thread popped up.

The harness contains 1 extra servo arm; therefore either a MOTF would only have 1 servo arm with a harness or have a sevro arm when he loses the harness.

This is a fallacy, the servo-harness rules are quite clear that they give 2 servo-arm attacks, a TL plas pistol, and a flamer. You do not need to assume that removing it would leave a servo arm to have this effect.

Plus to reduce his servo arm and harness to 0 would reduce also his repair abilities by 2.

Also incorrect, you get +1 to your roll for having a servo harness and +1 for each servitor with a servo-arm. You could have 0 servo-arms, 1 servo-arm, or 6000 servo-arms on your techmarine and he can still do blessing of the omnissiah with no modifiers from those servo-arms.

Drunkspleen wrote:This is a fallacy, the servo-harness rules are quite clear that they give 2 servo-arm attacks,

Untrue, the Servo-harness rules are quite clear that they give a Techmarine two Servo-arm attacks. While a Master of the Forge may have similar rules and abilities, and by fluff be called the head techmarine, he is a different unit. RAW vs RAI.

Page 70: Master of the Forge entry

Servo-harness: See opposite page.

Page 71: Opposite page, Servo-harness entry

A servo-harness gives the Techmarine an extra servo-arm (giving him two servo-arm attacks)

Please tell me how to read the phrase "giving him two servo-arm attacks" without it meaning that the person gets two servo-arm attacks?

Or are you argueing the semantics of "it only gives a Techmarine an extra servo-arm, just like it says there, not any other unit equipped with it".

He's saying that a "Master of the Forge" isn't a "Techmarine".

But as you should always exchange the Servo-Harness for the Conversion Beamer, this is kind of moot.

Perhaps we should wait for Wave 2, so we can see exactly what the GW model has?

A master of the forge has as wargear servo-arm, servo-harness two different items
a tech marine has a servo-arm with the option for the servo-harness
this is from the descriptions area

master of the forge
wargear
artificer armor
servo-harness
boltgun or bolt pistol
frag and krak grenades
options replace servo-harness with conversion beamer
note this does not mention the servo-arm mentioned above i have noticed that this is common reasontly in the deamon codex
when they put out a faq or the model of the fig we will find out if he looses the servo-arm i am thinking about moding one so if he looses it i can take it off getting off

I am at a total wow about this thread.

Your Techmarine starts with a Servo Arm, then upgrades to a servo harness.

Your Master of the Forge starts with a Servo Harness, then upgrades to a Conversion Beam.

Both upgrades replace the initial wargear item. The techmarine loses the initial servo arm for the 2 servo arm Servo Harness. The FULL Servo Harness is replaced for the Conversion beamer, leaving the Master of the Forge with no servo arms.

Im going to wow right back.

The Master of the Forge entry on page 70 state that he has a Servoarm and a Servoharness. Replacing the Servoharness (and a Boltgun) with a Conversion Beamer, should leave the Servoarm, right?

Now we are just left with the decision about wether the regular entry on page 70 or the armylist entry is right since the armylist entry does not state that the MotF has a Servoarm.

What are "rules" concerning differences between regular entries and armylist entries?

Steelmage99 wrote:Im going to wow right back.

The Master of the Forge entry on page 70 state that he has a Servoarm and a Servoharness. Replacing the Servoharness (and a Boltgun) with a Conversion Beamer, should leave the Servoarm, right?

Now we are just left with the decision about wether the regular entry on page 70 or the armylist entry is right since the armylist entry does not state that the MotF has a Servoarm.

What are "rules" concerning differences between regular entries and armylist entries?

No the entry on page 70 has nothing to do with his actual wargear that he starts with, it's just the rules that he uses, he uses the servo-arm rule because the servo harness uses the servo-arm rule.

The earlier entries DO NOT give you the wargear they start with or the unit makeup or anything similar, they give statlines, unit specific rules, and fluff.

I want to see someone model a MotF with two servo harnesses. It would be a complete waste of points on a so so character... the best part would be watching the person fielding the model knowing they think they were really getting over on everyone else.

G

Drunkspleen wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Im going to wow right back.

The Master of the Forge entry on page 70 state that he has a Servoarm and a Servoharness. Replacing the Servoharness (and a Boltgun) with a Conversion Beamer, should leave the Servoarm, right?

Now we are just left with the decision about wether the regular entry on page 70 or the armylist entry is right since the armylist entry does not state that the MotF has a Servoarm.

What are "rules" concerning differences between regular entries and armylist entries?

No the entry on page 70 has nothing to do with his actual wargear that he starts with, it's just the rules that he uses, he uses the servo-arm rule because the servo harness uses the servo-arm rule.

The earlier entries DO NOT give you the wargear they start with or the unit makeup or anything similar, they give statlines, unit specific rules, and fluff.

Yeah, I can see your point. The Wargear part of the entry on page 70 also list the Conversion Beamer, which he might not have.