Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the introduction of 5th edition, the question has arisen of whether Eldritch Storm scatters now.

Would someone be able to analyse the rules and come up with a conclusion for it?

From what i understand is that even tho it is a blast template it is a psychic power and therefor forgoes the normal rule for blast template and it has never required a BS test nor line of sight, there for to me it does not and should not scatter ^^ but thats just IMHO

Squig_herder wrote:From what i understand is that even tho it is a blast template it is a psychic power and therefor forgoes the normal rule for blast template and it has never required a BS test nor line of sight, there for to me it does not and should not scatter ^^ but thats just IMHO

It's a psychic shooting attack so it still would require line of sight I think (I could be wrong) but it definitely specifies it's own rules for determining what is hit, which don't include a scatter, and so it wouldn't have to check scatter.

It's a shooting attack, so should follow the shooting rules (unless it specifies a different shooting system)

Antonin wrote:It's a shooting attack, so should follow the shooting rules (unless it specifies a different shooting system)

the eldar codex states that the eldar psyker does not require line of sight unless stated in the psychic power rules

let me put this one to rest for once and for all

Eldar Codex: farseer psychic powers wrote:
pg.28 ....do not require the eldar psyker to have line of sight to target

Eldar Codex: farseer psychic powers wrote:
Eldrich Storm [pg.28]
this psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the eldar player places the lager blast marker centred on an enemy model within 18". vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a random direction determined by the scatter dice - if a hit is rolled the eldar player may choose its facing

As it is a psychic power and does require line of sight it does not scatter

i hope that helps everyone and ends this discussion

RE: Rules questions: EldarFriday, January 30, 2009 3:23 PM
From: "Ask Your Question" <askyourquestion@Games-Workshop.com>Add sender to Contacts To: demonbunnyman@yahoo.comHello,
Eldrich Storm does not scatter.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve
you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A
Glen Burnie MD 21060

Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST

And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

SeattleDV8 wrote:And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

John Spencer and the INAT FAQ bump heads yet again. This one is a tough one though. It really can be interpreted either way, although I am leaning toward it not scattering due to the wording in the rule book that was quoted above.

it makes it a bit of a rubbish power but yes, as its used instead of shooting a weapon in the shooting phase it acts like any other blast in 5ed..

The prisms tank focoused & unfocoused didnt scatter in 4ed as didnt eldritch storm as was intended but due to the rebalancing of the game all blast weapon scatter.

Eldrich Storm [pg.28]
this psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the eldar player places the lager blast marker centred on an enemy model within 18". vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a random direction determined by the scatter dice - if a hit is rolled the eldar player may choose its facing


Sounds like it doesn't scatter.
1. Doesn't require line of sight
2. Used in place of firing a weapon
3. Place a large blast marker (marker)?
4. Doesn't mention to scatter the marker, but instead goes right on to what else this power does.
5. Cause John Spencer said so :p

I'm sure a few of my remarks are complete non-sense, but actually forget that... I wonder what john spencer says about firing this thing from a waveserpent with no firing port, even though the power does not need line of sight. .....

Attention deficient disorder strikes again!

Well it basically comes down to 5ed Psychic powers.. theyve been updated.

Do powers that taking place in the shooting phase instead of the psyker firing a weapon count as "Psyhic Shooting attacks"

I think that any arguement pro-Eldritch storm scatter would have to concur that yes, they are Psychic shooting attacks.. just worded in the language 4ed used.

My key point to validate this opinion (That eldritch storm & others worded like it are Psychic shooting attacks) is that the Warlock power Destructor is worded in exactly the same way and looks to be very much like a Psychic shooting attack.

If any/all of these are psyhic shooting attacks than they follow the rules as per BGB P50 so yes, they would scatter.

Likewise if a nice farseer cast guide on herself.. she would get to re-roll this scatter.

Based on the way the rule reads I wouldn't have expected the player controlling the farseer to roll a D6 to hit in 4th edition so I don't think they need to roll scatter in 5th.

Based on the way the rules read in 4ed I didnt expect to roll to scatter my fireprism focoused shot.

Yet I have to roll to scatter in 5ed.

Whats your point?

Razerous wrote:
If any/all of these are psyhic shooting attacks than they follow the rules as per BGB P50 so yes, they would scatter.

Are you sure? Do they have to follow the rules in the BRB, what if something in the eldar codex overrides some of the rules for shooting attacks in the BRB? Just saying cause its not like this is totally obvious. What if this thing is using the blast marker, but its not a blast weapon? Then its not different that the now defunct fury of the ancients.

I mean.. the place where the term "Psychic Shooting Attack" would be in the eldar codex, its simply "This power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon" which by itself (circa 4ed) is quite clear in its meaning but with the new rulebook with updated terminology its a case of wether(sp?) or not these powers with that phrase count as Psychic shooting attacks.

All of the shooty psychic powers in the new 5ed friendly SM codex have the term Psychic Shooting attack where-applicable & have various expecptions/extra rules.

So I do think they should follow the psychic shooty rules in the BGB as that what seems to be intended.

Sadly that's a argument for RAI, which isn't to say its not valid. But... what if Eldar are truly meant to be exceptions to the rule? I honestly don't know one way or the other. I know that it doesn't say Psychic Shooting Attack, and I know that Eldar won't be getting a new codex for at least 2yrs maybe 3. And if INAT says one thing and John Spencer says another, its pretty much a toss up. I mean I generally trust Dakka FAQ's to be gold, but somethings like this one are odd. For instance, in 4th edition, we neither rolled to hit or scattered edlritch storm (right?) Whats changed about the wording of eldritch storm to make it more like a true shooting attack, the codex appears to have rules that are specific to this power that are more precise in their wording than the main rulebook. So with RAW, you take the specific of the codex, and ignore the BRB where it conflicts. I don't think its reasonable that if one codex says one thing, and another codex says another, that you take the writing of an alien codex in place of the one where an ability is in question. I think GW made some sort of annoucement to that effect just recently anyhow. Aka, dark angels still get overpriced drop pods, whilst space marines have cheaper ones (least I recall the new space marine codex has cheaper drop pods still)

I can only wonder what the next eldar codex will say about this...

Razerous wrote:I mean.. the place where the term "Psychic Shooting Attack" would be in the eldar codex, its simply "This power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon" which by itself (circa 4ed) is quite clear in its meaning but with the new rulebook with updated terminology its a case of wether(sp?) or not these powers with that phrase count as Psychic shooting attacks.

All of the shooty psychic powers in the new 5ed friendly SM codex have the term Psychic Shooting attack where-applicable & have various expecptions/extra rules.

So I do think they should follow the psychic shooty rules in the BGB as that what seems to be intended.

It is a weapon as it comes with a profile range:18" S:3 AP- Pinning, Large Blast... Till its FAQ you place the template and scatter it as all blast scatter 2D6-BS" or 2D6" if you don't have LOS.

SeattleDV8 wrote:And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

The inat guys live on another planet or what? Their answers are as daft as it gets.
First i have to pass a psychic test, possibly frying my brains, then the template scatters possibly landing on my own stuff, then the effect is again randomized with a second scatter roll to see which direction the thing spins? And it's not like it's str 10 ap1 or anything, STR3 effing AP- ... INAT =DAFT


And don't get me started on the poodle that isn't a dog anymore, because it's 'special'.

nostromo wrote:

SeattleDV8 wrote:And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

The inat guys live on another planet or what? Their answers are as daft as it gets.
First i have to pass a psychic test, possibly frying my brains, then the template scatters possibly landing on my own stuff, then the effect is again randomized with a second scatter roll to see which direction the thing spins? And it's not like it's str 10 ap1 or anything, STR3 effing AP- ... INAT =DAFT


And don't get me started on the poodle that isn't a dog anymore, because it's 'special'.

When you roll to scatter, you use the directional arrow on the scatter die to determine where the vehicle ends up facing unless a hit is rolled then the player can choose the vehicles orienatation.

Dont blame a poor low-powered psychic power on game mechanics.

It will only ever scatter 12". You shouldnt really have units near a target about to be hit by a large blast marker. Ill give that one for free.

Of course it doesn't scatter. The codex explains exactly how the power functions including how to determine hits. This explanation does not include scatter so the Eldritch Storm does not scatter.

The only thing you use the scatter dice for is to determine the direction of facing.

Arguing this should scatter is even less valid than trying to say a Shokk Attack Gun 5,6 result scatters, or that a Weirdboy's Frazzle power scatters, or that his Zzapp power has to roll to hit. In all these cases the codex overrides the usual to-hit rules by clearly stating which models are hit without requiring scatter.

You only scatter in order to determine which models are hit. You only need to do this for weapons or powers that do not include their own rules for determining which models are hit.

GW Official FAQ wrote:
Q: Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks?

A: Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules as specified in their descriptions).

It is a shooting attack, but the codex specifies an exception to the normal shooting rules: it doesn't say anything about scatter (or LoS). We know that the codex supersedes the BGB on specific rules.

So just do what the description says to do--place template, LoS not required, no scatter, roll wounds--and don't assume a lot of stuff that isn't mentioned.

Codex > Core Rule Book
but only if it tells you to ignore something in the RB other wise you follow the rules in BGB

The farseer would still need to see the target to use Eldrich storm.. I dont care if it does not explicitly say that you need to see the target, it says that you counts as firing a weapon (just like a physic shooting attack in RB). All weapons unless otherwise stated would still req LOS. If you agree that its a PSS then it would still need LOS by RAW. either way it would still count just as any other blast weapon in this case Assault 1 Large Blast. just read through p50 of your rule book. Physic Shooting Attacks. My pont is that it would still scatter just like any blast weapon.

The Eldar codex over-rules the BRB psychic rules .
No LOS is needed.
I still think it scatters though.

Psf, you might want to check your Eldar codex. The section on Eldar psychic powers specifies that they do not require LOS unless noted. The only one that notes that is DOES is Mind War.

Further, Eldritch Storm tells us exactly how to use the power. It states that you "place the template". It says nothing about rolling to hit etc. If you don't roll to hit you do not roll to scatter as that is how blast weapons roll to hit.

There is no ambiguity here, the rules in the codex tells us exactly how the power works. Trying to lump it in with all the other generic shooting psychic powers is an error. Just because it has a strength and an AP, does not mean it follows all the rules for shooting, especially when it dictates otherwise.

Read the rules on eldar psychic powers. They are used at the start of the turn & dont require LOS. Refer to the psychic powers section in the 40k RB

Thats basically what it says in the eldar dex.

Now go to the section on psychic powers. Im pretty sure that while its not stated specifically in the eldar dex (coz its 4ed) that all those shooty-like powers are infact Psyhic Shooting Attacks

Follow those rules using the exceptions provided by the eldar codex. Which includes not needing LOS as its mentioned Specifically at the top of the pg.

Its pretty simple. Who would like to refute this?

Eldar Codex Page 28
Eldrich Storm: ...This physic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

Eldar FAQ from Games workshop
Q: Which Eldar physic powers count as physic shooting attacks?
A: Destructor, Eldrich Storm, and Mind War (though the include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description

The Question then falls to if this is resolved just like any other shooting attack with reguard to having a weapon profile. ES has its own weapon profile. To me this suggest that it would be resolved as any PSS, and thus would need LOS. All other weapon profiles that do not require LOS say so in their descriptor explicitly. While the general rule for the
Physic powers says it needs LOS unless it says, then it needs LOS, it would follow the weapon profile.
If it did not req LOS then it could be done in a WS or Falcon.

IMO you cant have it both ways regard to it being a PSS and not need LOS.

Kyrolon wrote:
Further, Eldritch Storm tells us exactly how to use the power. It states that you "place the template". It says nothing about rolling to hit etc. If you don't roll to hit you do not roll to scatter as that is how blast weapons roll to hit.

There is no ambiguity here, the rules in the codex tells us exactly how the power works. Trying to lump it in with all the other generic shooting psychic powers is an error. Just because it has a strength and an AP, does not mean it follows all the rules for shooting, especially when it dictates otherwise.

BRB Pg.30 "when firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker....."
Not so different.

Ahem. The BRB rules then go on to tell us how to work out which models are hit - which is to say, by scattering the marker.

In contrast, the Eldar codex tells us exactly how to work out which models are hit - which is to say, by looking at the models under the template without scattering it at all.