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psf3077 wrote:

Eldar Codex Page 28
Eldrich Storm: ...This physic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

Eldar FAQ from Games workshop
Q: Which Eldar physic powers count as physic shooting attacks?
A: Destructor, Eldrich Storm, and Mind War (though the include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description

The Question then falls to if this is resolved just like any other shooting attack with reguard to having a weapon profile. ES has its own weapon profile. To me this suggest that it would be resolved as any PSS, and thus would need LOS. All other weapon profiles that do not require LOS say so in their descriptor explicitly. While the general rule for the
Physic powers says it needs LOS unless it says, then it needs LOS, it would follow the weapon profile.
If it did not req LOS then it could be done in a WS or Falcon.

IMO you cant have it both ways regard to it being a PSS and not need LOS.

Why do you keep bringing up it needing LOS when the codex specifically said it doesnt require los?

You use it during shooting phase , place template on 1 model in range to farseer, and pew pew.

Where is the confusion?

Raraara.. I didnt realised It was FAQ'ed.

Eldritch storm is a psychic shooting attack.

It scatter as per blast weapon rules.

Anything else is beside the point. (Oh yes..ofcourse it doesnt require LOS because its a stated exception. it still counts as a Psychic shooting attack otherwise)

Anything else is beside the point - like the fact you're plucking your argument out of thin air, when the codex clearly states how you work out hits so scattering the template will have no effect on which models are hit?

Boss Ardnutz wrote:Anything else is beside the point - like the fact you're plucking your argument out of thin air, when the codex clearly states how you work out hits so scattering the template will have no effect on which models are hit?

Do you have a different version of the codex then I do? My version says:

"The Eldar places the large blast centered on an enemy model within 18". Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a direction determined by the scatter dice -- if a hit is rolled the Eldar player may choose its facing."


Besides vehicles, I don't see anything at all about how models are hit by Eldritch storm. Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Flavius Infernus wrote:

GW Official FAQ wrote:
Q: Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks?

A: Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules as specified in their descriptions).

It is a shooting attack, but the codex specifies an exception to the normal shooting rules: it doesn't say anything about scatter (or LoS). We know that the codex supersedes the BGB on specific rules.

So just do what the description says to do--place template, LoS not required, no scatter, roll wounds--and don't assume a lot of stuff that isn't mentioned.

I'm surprised that this is the conclusion you've come to. Eldritch storm is clearly a psychic shooting attack, the FAQ tells us as much. That means we follow all the rules for shooting except where specified otherwise.

So again, let's look at the things that are specified in Eldritch Storm:

"The Eldar places the large blast centered on an enemy model within 18". Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a direction determined by the scatter dice -- if a hit is rolled the Eldar player may choose its facing."

and:

"Unless otherwise noted, these powers. . .do not require the Eldar psyker to have line of sight to its target."



So I read three exceptions noted to the basic shooting rules:

1) Line of Sight is not required.
2) The blast has to be centered over an enemy model instead of placed anywhere over its base/hull as usual.
3) Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armor penetration and are spun around.


So I don't see any basis for ignoring any of the other shooting rules.

All 3 of those exceptions can be followed while rolling for scatter on the blast, figuring out who is hit using the standard blast rules, rolling to wound as normal, casualty removal rules as normal, cover saves as normal.

Well now that I think about it, Yak, I guess it comes down to how you decide to apply the FAQ part about "exceptions to the normal shooting rules."

You can either read that phrase--as I think you do--as meaning that all shooting rules are in effect except for those specifically nullified in the description.

Or you can read it--as I did yesterday--as meaning that the *entire description* of how ES works is an exception to the normal shooting rules. So anything not specified in the codex description doesn't happen.

Yesterday I was pretty sure that I was right, but today I feel like it's less clear than I originally thought.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Well now that I think about it, Yak, I guess it comes down to how you decide to apply the FAQ part about "exceptions to the normal shooting rules."

You can either read that phrase--as I think you do--as meaning that all shooting rules are in effect except for those specifically nullified in the description.

Or you can read it--as I did yesterday--as meaning that the *entire description* of how ES works is an exception to the normal shooting rules. So anything not specified in the codex description doesn't happen.

Yesterday I was pretty sure that I was right, but today I feel like it's less clear than I originally thought.

I'm with you in spirit. I don't think Eldritch Storm is *supposed* to scatter, but looking at the rules I just don't see any justification for that belief.

Mind War, for example, is a shooting attack but it doesn't have a Strength, or roll to wound, etc. so it is much more clear that it makes a clean break away from the shooting rules and is entirely self-contained and therefore doesn't require a roll to hit.

But take a look at Eldritch storm again. It isn't self-contained. It has a weapon profile and then lists a couple of exceptions (that I posted above) but beyond that requires players to use the shooting rules to resolve the attack.

If we have to use the shooting rules to determine who is hit by the blast, why would we not have to follow the rules for scatter? Centering the blast over an enemy model is certainly not a clear command not to scatter the blast, although it seems as though many people are trying to assume that it is.

Literally, Eldritch is storming all over your junk. Everyone knows that no one is psychically potent enough to surgically strike with Eldritch. Eldritch does what it wants. That's why it has to scatter.

Also, Yakface makes the most sense by far, so I have to agree with him, as usual. He didn't even have to type-yell it at me with bold font or say how stupid everyone is that disagrees.

In the FAQ Council discussions, the point that Yak brought up is what carried the argument. IIRC.

Here my argument:
In the ork codex, the wording of the weirdboy psychic power 'Frazzle' specifies that it hits automaticly.
In the Eldar codex, the wording of the farseer psychic power 'Eldritch Storm' doesn't specify. Therefore it scatters

Both codexes were written in 4th Ed, so you can't argue that the rules change had an effect.

DemonBunnyMan wrote:RE: Rules questions: EldarFriday, January 30, 2009 3:23 PM
From: "Ask Your Question" <askyourquestion@Games-Workshop.com>Add sender to Contacts To: demonbunnyman@yahoo.comHello,
Eldrich Storm does not scatter.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

With regards to the INAT FAQ, what do we intend to do with this little gem?

lol well it solved the issue with my gaming group: its a psychic shooting attack that wont scatter. This is how we are playing it till we see a codex.

Here's the thing.

Nowhere in the BRB does it say that psychic shooting attacks automatically follow all the rules for normal shooting. It specifically lists on pg 50 the ways that phycic shooting attacks are similar to normal shooting, and the scatter of blasts is not mentioned.

HOwever, in the first paragraph on pg 50 it states that the "complete rules" for individual powers are found in the Codexes. The "complete rules" for Eldritch Storm never mention scatter in the Eldar Codex. You simply place the blast marker.

Because of these two points, there is no reason to come to a RAW conclusion that ES must scatter. It just isn't there in either book. It is also the reason that John Spencer has systematically answered that ES does not scatter. There is no mention of ES or psychic shooting attacks being forced to scatter in either the BRB or the Eldar dex. For any psychic shootign attack to be forced to scatter, it would have to be listed in its own dex...as per its "complete rules".

Alerian wrote:Because of these two points, there is no reason to come to a RAW conclusion...It is also the reason that John Spencer has systematically answered that ES does not scatter.

Honestly, we do not know that. There is little evidence for or against the Spencer Team following structured rules arguments when deciding upon GW's position; this doesn't change the fact that he consistently answers such questions however.

Actually the codex never mentions scatter, it could be implied that you just use the normal blast rules or that you don't. This was a 4th Ed codex and rule, it is badly in need of a FAQ.

That is exactly my point. The BRB says (on pg 50) to use the "complete rules" for psychic powers as listed in the Codex. Since the newest Codex never mentions scatter, there is nothing to infer. If scatter isn't explicitly mentioned, then it is not part of the rules for Eldritch Storm. Period.

Alerian wrote:That is exactly my point. The BRB says (on pg 50) to use the "complete rules" for psychic powers as listed in the Codex. Since the newest Codex never mentions scatter, there is nothing to infer. If scatter isn't explicitly mentioned, then it is not part of the rules for Eldritch Storm. Period.

The Codex ALSO never mentions how to inflict and remove casualties. In fact, about the only thing the codex would allow you to do is spin vehicles, as the vehicle damage tables aren't presented there, either.

Now you are just reaching.

The fact is, the BRB never mentions that you need to "roll to hit" with any psychic shooting attack, whether by a normal BS roll or for scatter. Unless a specific codex requires you to do so for a specific power, you do not. It refers us directly to the individual Codexes for the rules for all powers, only giving us a few general guidlines on how to use psychic shooting attacks...none of which mention rolling to hit or for scatter.

Saying that Eldritch Storm has to roll scatter dice is like saying that Mind War has to roll to hit first...after all they are both psychic shooting attacks. No one is saying that, because it is just stupid. However, if you want to apply normal shooting to one, you have to do it to both. Of course, doing so would force you to use a completely madeup ruleset.

You can't apply normal shooting rules to either, because their "complete rules" do not allow you to do so. Both powers tell you specifically how to use them. Mindwar does not have to roll to hit, and Eldritch Storm does not have to roll for scatter.

I challenge anyone to show where on pg 50, the only place where psychic powers are dealt with in the BRB, to show where all psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit or scatter. Or, to show where the Eldar codex says that Eldritch Storm must do the same. The fact is, neither the BRB's rules for psychic abilites, nor the Eldar codex even hint at requiring rolls to hit (with normal BS) or rolls for scatter.

.... can you show me where it says blasts don't scatter?

If you do want to see how GW right rules see CODEX SM page57

"Vortex of DooooooM
This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile

Range 12" str:10 AP:1 Heavy 1, Blast

If when using this power the librarian fails his psychic test, place the VoD blastmarker on the librarian - in this case the template will not scatter"

note the only time scattering is mentioned is when it doesn't happen

Tri wrote:.... can you show me where it says blasts don't scatter?

If you do want to see how GW right rules see CODEX SM page57

"Vortex of DooooooM
This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile

Range 12" str:10 AP:1 Heavy 1, Blast

If when using this power the librarian fails his psychic test, place the VoD blastmarker on the librarian - in this case the template will not scatter"

note the only time scattering is mentioned is when it doesn't happen

There is no need to.

You just gave an example where a specific Codex menitons that a certain power scatters...so it does. Please refer back to page 50 of the BRB where it tell sus to read the individaul dex's for the "complete rules" for all powers. Vortex of Doom mentions scatter, so it does. Eldritch Storm does not mention scatter, so it doesn't. Just because something scatters in the SM dex, it doesn't mean that every other power scatters in every other dex.

To prove that Eldrtich Storm scatters, you must find the proof in the BRB pg 50, or in the Eldar Codex, as those are the only places that give rules for using Eldar psychic powers. Another different Codex does not offer anything to this discussion. (Not to mention, you have to disagree with GW's John Spencer, who says it does not scatter.)

I know you were trying to prove me wrong, but I thank you for actually making my point about individual codexes and indiviual powers

Exceptions are only needed where a codex rule would break or modify the BRB.
You got Tri's point backwards , the codex said the power does NOT scatter for VoD. This would break the normal blast rules and needs to have permission to do so.
ES does not mention scatter so we have to go to the base rules for a blast weapon.

SeattleDV8 wrote:Exceptions are only needed where a codex rule would break or modify the BRB.
You got Tri's point backwards , the codex said the power does NOT scatter for VoD. This would break the normal blast rules and needs to have permission to do so.
ES does not mention scatter so we have to go to the base rules for a blast weapon.

Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

The eldar dex was written for 4th edition rules...in 4th blasts didn't scatter and you had to roll for partial hits for blast/template wepons. In 5th everthing under the blast template is hit and unless stated otherwise, blast wepons scatter... Since the rules updated the codex's use the new rules unless stated otherwise therefor ES scatters as normal (clear as day imo). Besides aren't farseers BS 5? so it probably wont be scattering much anyway.

Alerian wrote:

Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

No problem. Page 50, under "Psychic Shooting Attacks":

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."


Right there in black and white, using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon, and as with all ranged weapons in the game you follow the rules for shooting when doing so. They give some examples of what that means in the rulebook, but they are just examples. A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon and therefore follows all the rules for doing so except where specified otherwise in the psychic power's rules.


And more importantly, you can't have it both ways. Eldritch storm does not tell you what models are hit (besides vehicles), it does not tell you how models are damaged by it (besides vehicles), it does not discuss how armor saves and casualties are resolved and it does not discuss how cover saves are utilized (if at all).

You MUST use the shooting rules for these steps, so why exactly do you feel that the roll for scatter would not be included?

Casper wrote:The eldar dex was written for 4th edition rules...in 4th blasts didn't scatter and you had to roll for partial hits for blast/template wepons. In 5th everthing under the blast template is hit and unless stated otherwise, blast wepons scatter... Since the rules updated the codex's use the new rules unless stated otherwise therefor ES scatters as normal (clear as day imo). Besides aren't farseers BS 5? so it probably wont be scattering much anyway.

Wrong again.

By default, you must always roll to hit with shooting attacks, not so with psychic shooting attacks. There is no default that says you must roll to hit with psychic shooting. Period. You would only roll to hit (or to scatter) if the individual power told you that you had to. Psychic shooting IS different than normal shooting, in that there is NO default need "to hit" first. All you do is test for the power. You only roll to hit or scatter if the power tells you to.

Again...please show me where the BRB EVER says on pg 50 that psychic powers must roll to hit or scatter. It isn't there.

For there to be a default rule to roll for scatter with pyschic shooting, you would also have to enforce a default rule to hit (using the caster's BS) for all non-blast psychic shooting. You can't say that one type of psychic shooting attacks follows all the normal rules for shooting by default, without placing the same enforcement on them all. The fact is, nowhere does it say that psychic shooting must roll to hit, nor does it say that they must roll for scatter. Stating that one must roll to hit or to scatter is an inferrence that has NO RAW to back it up on pg 50 of the BRB.

yakface wrote:

Alerian wrote:

Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

No problem. Page 50, under "Psychic Shooting Attacks":

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."


Right there in black and white, using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon, and as with all ranged weapons in the game you follow the rules for shooting when doing so. They give some examples of what that means in the rulebook, but they are just examples. A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon and therefore follows all the rules for doing so except where specified otherwise in the psychic power's rules.


And more importantly, you can't have it both ways. Eldritch storm does not tell you what models are hit (besides vehicles), it does not tell you how models are damaged by it (besides vehicles), it does not discuss how armor saves and casualties are resolved and it does not discuss how cover saves are utilized (if at all).

You MUST use the shooting rules for these steps, so why exactly do you feel that the roll for scatter would not be included?

Yes, it says it counts as firing a weapon( for the purposes of movement, targeting and running), but it does not say that you roll to hit with it, like you do with a weapon.

The problem is that you are enforcing a roll to hit for blast psychic powers and not all other psychic shooting.

By your reasoning all psychic shooting should have to roll to hit, unless it specifically said the power didn't..including Mind War. Mind War is a psychic shooting attack, so by your logic, one should also have to roll to hit with it..which is rediculous. It tells us how it works. So does Eldritch Storm.

You guys are trying to pick and choose which powers must follow all the shooting rules and which ones don't. The BRB tells how pyschic shooting is similiar to normal shooting; it doesn not say that it is identical to it. If it was, it would tell us to follow all the rules for normal shooting...no such ruling is there. The only way you know how a power works is by doing what the codex says. If it says to roll to hit, then roll to hit. If it says roll for scatter, then roll for scatter. if not, then you do EXACTLY waht the codex says. The BRB does not say that by default you roll to hit/scatter, unless the codex states otherwise. It just says to follow the codex.

Besides, as has already been mentioned, John Spencer has been saying for 6 months that you do not roll for scatter with ES...when are you guys finally gonn alisten to GWs rep?

Alerian, your post make me laugh...Yak gave you the page number, quote and the rule with no changes. Yak has it right...you cant have the best of 4th and 5th edition...

Besides Mind War doesn't count as a Psychic Shooting Attack (imo) - it is used instead of firing a wepon (not the same as actually firing one) and therefore doesn't need to hit. EH has its own statline therefore it follows all the rules for shooting.

My opinion of a Psychic shooting attack is a psychic power with a range, strenght, AP value...these are represented like assult wepons (page 50). A psychic power used in the shooting phase that doesn't have the pervious stated things to me is just a psychic power.

I think that the key here as per the scatter issue [and yes i bow out of my former argument] is to look at other PSA, one that are blasts and Assatults.
Let us look at the space Marein Libarian. He has a few powers that are shooting attacks.
1) Smite, this is not a blast attack but rather Assault 4 are you to say that is will auto hit all four time? fine dont know where you could get that though.
2) Machine Curse in it's descriptor it says "If it hits..." p57 for people that want to check this. Now, why would a psa need to say IF is you claim psa would hit automatically.
3) Avenger, Template, not much argument potential there, ill skip it.
4) Vortex of Doom, this IS a blast and as such the most like ES. So In its description if states that if you fail the roll then the marker is centered over the lib and IT WILL NOT SCATTER, If it would not scatter normaly as per any other blast weapon then why would it feel the need to say it would not scatter then.

Things we can not argue, ES is a psa, and it uses the bast template. Just because the codex for Eldar is from 4th E does not meant that you pick some of the 5E rules to use and not others, in 5E blast weapons scatter 2d6-BS. This would hold true for ANY from of blast unless the codex says otherwise. The Edlar codex leaves on mute scatter, as such we must accept the scatter of blasts rule from 5th E.

To sum up Alerians argument; "It does not scatter, because I do not want to to".

Either the wording of Eldritch Storm represent the ENTIRE set of rules used by the Eldritch Storm (and thus it cannot wound) or Eldritch Storm follows the normal rules for shooting with the exceptions mentioned specifically in the wording (and thus it scatters).

John Spencer has given us an indication about how a FAQ will be worded on the subject when, and if, GW gets around to doing it. It has no impact on the rules as they currently stand.

Casper wrote:Alerian, your post make me laugh...Yak gave you the page number, quote and the rule with no changes. Yak has it right...you cant have the best of 4th and 5th edition...

Besides Mind War doesn't count as a Psychic Shooting Attack (imo) - it is used instead of firing a wepon (not the same as actually firing one) and therefore doesn't need to hit. EH has its own statline therefore it follows all the rules for shooting.

My opinion of a Psychic shooting attack is a psychic power with a range, strenght, AP value...these are represented like assult wepons (page 50). A psychic power used in the shooting phase that doesn't have the pervious stated things to me is just a psychic power.

Actually, Mind War is defined as a psychic shooting attack along with Eldritch Storm and Destructor.

Whether or not Mind War needs to roll 'to hit' is a question that isn't unreasonable to ask given the rules written the way they are. I do think there is sufficient specificity in the Mind War rules that a 'to hit' rule isn't required, but frankly that's a whole other issue that should be discussed separately.

Steelmage99 wrote:To sum up Alerians argument; "It does not scatter, because I do not want to to".

Either the wording of Eldritch Storm represent the ENTIRE set of rules used by the Eldritch Storm (and thus it cannot wound) or Eldritch Storm follows the normal rules for shooting with the exceptions mentioned specifically in the wording (and thus it scatters).

John Spencer has given us an indication about how a FAQ will be worded on the subject when, and if, GW gets around to doing it. It has no impact on the rules as they currently stand.

I agree. John Spencer has made it perfectly clear that his answers are not official in that they do not come from the people writing the rules and FAQs. We have absolutely no indication that if and when GW ever FAQs an issue they will do according to how John Spencer has ruled.