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I've played against necrons several times but overall have been ultimately unimpressed. Yes, their big bads are bad ,but honestly their not difficult to kill for a Marine Player now with Sternguard. One of the things I noticed was how just incredibly effective it is to just charge even the basic troops with yours in CC.


The army really suffers from not being able to stand up to a charge , much like Tau, but with out the added benefit the Tau army has of beneficial vehicles that allow quick movement and socring of objectives by troops.


Here are the main problems I see with the Necrons.


1. Mobility, the army is terribly immobile even with the added benefit of a necron lord being able to teleport units at will and the Monolith as well it just is not mobile at all. Running adds somewhat to the advantage of the necrons movement but overall it is easily outflankable army. Even their "calvary" models are in the end not really worht the points as they're ineffecient at even dealing with basic troops.


2. Selective weapony, as it stands the necrons have a list of 6 weapons with the Gauss rifle being the core of it yet, no flexibility in their basic troop type to even take a heavier weapon. Add to that the necron warriors carry a weapon that is rapid fire and although it has the benefit of Glancing on a six.

3. Nonexistant h to h excepting for their C'tan special characters. I wont evne argue this point yes the C'tan are incredible HQ choices. That's pretty much it though for h to h combat for the necrons.

4. We'll be back ( i had feel no pain on the brain for some reason) is not only unclear it is very difficult to judge on some issues, as well as being generally a poorly written rules with several issues of FAQs having to have been created.

5. Limited number of units allow little flexibility at all in the army.

6. Point cost in general for the issue of basic troopers with little to any flexibility.


Anyway here are the issues I would first address.

Do one thing and do it well, Necrons are unstoppable killing machines, the undead of the Universe a ancient force to reconned with.

Pretty much totally agree. My group had several strong Necron players, who won't even bring their armies out with the way CC works now, because of the massive issue with the morale check modifiers and overun. The necrons are in trouble in this ed.

Hollismason wrote: I've played against necrons several times but overall have been ultimately unimpressed. ... The army really suffers from not being able to stand up to a charge..

Yup, and now with the ridiculous CC rules it's a MASSIVE handicap to be Low I and wimpy in CC as all it takes is one turn to be toasted.

Hollismason wrote:1. Mobility, the army is terribly immobile even with the added benefit of a necron lord being able to teleport units at will and the Monolith as well it just is not mobile at all. Running adds somewhat to the advantage of the necrons movement but overall it is easily outflankable army. Even their "calvary" models are in the end not really worht the points as they're ineffecient at even dealing with basic troops.

There are 2 ways to mitigate this, 1 play 3 monoliths and 2 play 3 units of destroyers, the teleport through the monoliths is superb, especially when combined with a turbo boost move on destroyers, its the best way to move necrons around. (Unfortuantely doing the solution I propose here makes the army really small and the phase number really bad, vulnerable to pod death, yikes, its a big problem) As for walking warriors, yea, they are pretty slow.

Hollismason wrote:2. Selective weapony, as it stands the necrons have a list of 6 weapons with the Gauss rifle being the core of it yet, no flexibility in their basic troop type to even take a heavier weapon. Add to that the necron warriors carry a weapon that is rapid fire and although it has the benefit of Glancing on a six.

Indeed, Necrons really stink in the AP2 department, heavy destroyers, thats it. They could use some sort of new units, bad.

Hollismason wrote:3. Nonexistant h to h excepting for their C'tan special characters. I wont evne argue this point yes the C'tan are incredible HQ choices. That's pretty much it though for h to h combat for the necrons.

This is the one point where I might disagree a little bit, Necron Destoyer Lord with the Warscythe is actually pretty good, he is T6, immune to ID, can have a 4+ inv, is an MC in HtH and ignores ALL SAVES. Its not the best CC unit, but it is pretty good. IMO the ONLY one to play. (Must have ORB)

Hollismason wrote:4. Feel no pain is not only unclear it is very difficult to judge on some issues, as well as being generally a poorly written rules with several issues of FAQs having to have been created.

?

Hollismason wrote:5. Limited number of units allow little flexibility at all in the army.

Yea thats kind of their shtick, "lots of bots" it makes all their armies look the same. and sucks. Maybe if FLayed ones were troop choices, I dunno.

Hollismason wrote:6. Point cost in general for the issue of basic troopers with little to any flexibility.

Yup, they are awfully expensive.

I don't know how to fix them in this ed,. I wonder what the new dex will be like? and when?

Augustus wrote:

Hollismason wrote:4. Feel no pain is not only unclear it is very difficult to judge on some issues, as well as being generally a poorly written rules with several issues of FAQs having to have been created.

?

I assume he's talking about WBB being unclear and difficult, in contrast to FNP (which is clear and easy).

Perhaps some sort of secondary vehicles might be of use to them. A cross between the energizer bunny and a floating coffin, this device could transport necrons and enhance either initiative or strength within a small radius. I don't think it would need to be a dedicated transport, just put it in the fast attack slot.

Simple fix to lose the CC:

Just make them fearless. Of course it means armor saves but you have 3+. You just can't lose by 5, be forced to make a roll of a 5 to hang in there and then if you break try to not get run down with a 2 initiative.

Less painful might be to give them equivalent to the marine rule... they fall back and auto regroup. Less figs drop but liveable.

The other change is... seeing they are on foot and usually forced to advance. Make the Gauss Rifle Assault 2 18" or Assault 1 24".
As an opponent, I can usually ignore warriors for a turn or two and take out destroyers and immortals that have range.

Still think, the veil and a monolith are almost a must or it is a slow march to death and usually it is necrons dying.

How about an open-topped skimmer, capacity 10, A13 all around, living metal? It makes for a decent, armored gun platform when you put a unit of immortals in it, adds some much needed mobility to the unit (which considering how advanced their supposed to be, there's a suprising lack of), and a buffer against getting involved in CC. A13 is pretty tough, particularly with living metal, but it does give a much better chance for the anti-tank weapons out there to affect it than the monolith does, especially being open topped. With the rules concerning infantry shooting from vehicles, it does keep it from being too overpowered, IMO. You're not going to be moving around like the destroyers, move over 6 and you can't shoot, but you will be able to get to objectives and advanced positions quicker. Move slow enough that the guys inside can shoot out, and you're more vulnerable to being hit/destroyed.

Honestly I would like them to just remove We'll be back altogether. Rules in general surround it are clumsy and poorly written.


Okay here is my first suggestion.


Remove We'll be back completely. Instead replace it with a much simpler Feel No Pain.


Instead I would work on this first.

Let's discuss the merits of feel no pain.

1. It's great against multiple low energy weapons but does not allow saves versus weapons such as power fist etc.. it is a very balanced ability. It is not outright power ful but it is a very good damage buffer.


We will be back

When all members of a necron unit are destroyed the unit roll a D6 on a 4+ the unit may be placed in reserve. It may arrive on board per the reserves special rules.


Here are my points.


1. It gives good balance versus reward. Yeah, sure you get your units back, but you also are losing victory points.

2. It gives the army a definitive strategy for not only objectives but also for playing against. Sure you may wipe them out but there is a good chance that unit will return.

3. The rule can be adjusted for harder to kill units for instance X elite unit only returns on a 5+. Basic Warriors return on a 4+.



I think fixing the We will be back is a very important point the designers need to make with the codex.

Most codex have a definitive "style" Necrons really dont have anything other than We Will be Back. That needs to really define the army but also not make the game overly complicated.

If you don't think so play an apocalyspe game or high point game against numerous necron models, the player has to track and spend time tracking what models are dead and make individual rolls.


It needs to be one roll completely.

I honestly completely missed a necron thread on here already. I dont even know how that happened. Mod can move or merge please.

IMO, Necrons are defined by 3 things:
1. WBB
2. Gauss
3. Phaseout

All of these are PITA rules that should be simplified drastically:
1. FNP
2. Rending Bolters
3. Auto-Wipeout if less than 2 units of Warriors on the board.

Do that, and Necrons become a non-problem army.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
3. Auto-Wipeout if less than 2 units of Warriors on the board.

what?! do you have any idea how easy this would be? so i only have to kill 2 (usually) squads of warriors to win? i can do that in 2 turns.

phase out is a bad rule. armies should be balanced on their strengths and weaknesses, not given a huge army wide disadvantage.

WBB will be changed to FNP. its a much simpler rule to use.

transport vehicles dont fit the necron fluff. there is no place for them. necron are supposed to be an unstoppable wall of infanty, not have vehicles zipping them about the place. speed is their armys disadvantage (phase out was inlcuded because the devs were drunk that day, too much bugmans). what i can see being included is a small monolith-esque thing that can teleport people around the battlefield, not just in front of it. even then im still not sure it would suit.

everything else has been gone over so many times.

yes flayed ones need to have rending and be troops
yes warriors should probably have SAP and T5
yes pariahs need to be a lot cheaper and necrons

be patient, their codex comes out next year.

Rending Bolters for necrons? Thanks but no.

While you need CC help, your shooting is top notch, and the monolith actually needs to be toned down... and your movement is fine with said monolith and veiling lord.

i dont see why they need phase out or anything similar, bollox to it, cut that out

make WBB FNP.

upgrade all gauss.

give them some form of transport.
they are the nly 40k army without one!

they need a unit that can fight!


this may be bias due to me being an ork player

Because Phase out is the balance to a MEQ army that has every model with a delayed action "ward save"

Regwon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
3. Auto-Wipeout if less than 2 units of Warriors on the board.

what?! do you have any idea how easy this would be? so i only have to kill 2 (usually) squads of warriors to win? i can do that in 2 turns.

phase out is a bad rule. armies should be balanced on their strengths and weaknesses, not given a huge army wide disadvantage.

Phase Out is very characteristic. It's very distinctive and flavorful. It's unique to the Necrons. It's actually the best rule in the entire Codex, so it should stay.

Undercosted FNP / WBB with Rending Guns gives a huge army-wide advantage that is balanced against a huge army-wide disadvantage. And Phaseout is the huge army-wide disadvantage that balances things to require Necron Warriors.

How easy? That really depends on the Necron army. If they have a few good-sized units of Necrons, and hold a big unit in the back, well-protected, they shouldn't ever fear Phase Out. And seriously, every Necron player should have at least one max-size mob of Necrons to babysit their "home" Objective. So that unit won't be killable. Then they just need to keep one more unit alive, which wouldn't be any harder than what they have today.

The only armies that my Phase Out rule hurts are those with small numbers of actual Necron Warriors. Screw them. 5th is about Troops, not cheese.

Breton wrote:Rending Bolters for necrons?

Well, otherwise, they need to be Bolters with the Melta USR. Rending sounds more like a Flaying effect.

I posted this in the other thread


We will be back

When a necron unit is destroyed it may make a roll on a 4+ the unit may be placed in reserve. It may then be deployed using the reserve special rules for that battle.


Phase Out

When a Necron squad is reduced to 25% of it's original size it phases out and is removed from the table. The squad is considered destroyed for victory point purposes. It may make a We will be back roll.


All Necron models have Feel No Pain, Stubborn.


Gauss
I would change this to Rending on a 6+

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Hollismason wrote:4. Feel no pain is not only unclear it is very difficult to judge on some issues, as well as being generally a poorly written rules with several issues of FAQs having to have been created.

?

I assume he's talking about WBB being unclear and difficult, in contrast to FNP (which is clear and easy).

Right, I think you have it, that makes sense.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, Necrons are defined by 3 things:
1. WBB
2. Gauss
3. Phaseout

All of these are PITA rules that should be simplified drastically:
1. FNP
2. Rending Bolters
3. Auto-Wipeout if less than 2 units of Warriors on the board.

Do that, and Necrons become a non-problem army.

I could live with that. Sounds pretty good!

Changing Phase out to individual units and making it so once that unit is rolled it makes its We'll be back roll balances out the power of the unit.


Sure you have 12 Man Necron Unit and its a strong unit with Feel No Pain, however once it goes down to 4 Models its effectively destroyed. Then it makes a roll to return.


I think balance wise it matches. Rending on a 6 is great for Gauss as it still allows glancing up to armour 13 an with higher str weapons it can pen 14.

1. Mobility, the army is terribly immobile even with the added benefit of a necron lord being able to teleport units at will and the Monolith as well it just is not mobile at all. Running adds somewhat to the advantage of the necrons movement but overall it is easily outflankable army. Even their "calvary" models are in the end not really worht the points as they're ineffecient at even dealing with basic troops.

IMO they are one of the most mobile armies in the game. Deciever gets to change your deployement. There nearly undestructable Monoliths can deep strike and then port infantry squads. Thier necron lord can port infantry quads. Thier Wraiths, Destroyers, Destroyer Lords, Heavy Destroyers, and Scarab Swarms all benefit from jetbike rules (NOT calvary). Now add in the run rule and things just got better. Granted Necrons need revisions just like any 3rd edition army, however, added mobility is not one of them .

Hollismason wrote:

We will be back

When all members of a necron unit are destroyed the unit roll a D6 on a 4+ the unit may be placed in reserve. It may arrive on board per the reserves special rules.


Here are my points.


1. It gives good balance versus reward. Yeah, sure you get your units back, but you also are losing victory points.

2. It gives the army a definitive strategy for not only objectives but also for playing against. Sure you may wipe them out but there is a good chance that unit will return.

3. The rule can be adjusted for harder to kill units for instance X elite unit only returns on a 5+. Basic Warriors return on a 4+.



I think fixing the We will be back is a very important point the designers need to make with the codex.

Most codex have a definitive "style" Necrons really dont have anything other than We Will be Back. That needs to really define the army but also not make the game overly complicated.

If you don't think so play an apocalyspe game or high point game against numerous necron models, the player has to track and spend time tracking what models are dead and make individual rolls.


It needs to be one roll completely.

I like the creativity, but Necrons are not a swarm army. They dont need to keep coming, they need to stick around. They are supposed to get knocked down and back up. the removing and adding models just makes them seem more "weak" and swarm-like. Also, with FNP, you take the FNP saves right away, making it a non issue in a apocalypse battle.

Hollismason wrote:I posted this in the other thread


We will be back

When a necron unit is destroyed it may make a roll on a 4+ the unit may be placed in reserve. It may then be deployed using the reserve special rules for that battle.


Phase Out

When a Necron squad is reduced to 25% of it's original size it phases out and is removed from the table. The squad is considered destroyed for victory point purposes. It may make a We will be back roll.


All Necron models have Feel No Pain, Stubborn.


Gauss
I would change this to Rending on a 6+

Wow. So you're willing to play against a 2000 point army with 50+ models with a 3+ Armor save, 4+ Feel No Pain save, AND your special We'll Be Back? And Stubborn, And you want to give them Rending.

So your 50+ Marines all stand in a line, their 50+ MEQ's all stand in a line. You Rapid Fire them... 100 shots, 67 hits, 34 wounds. They save 24, leaving 10 failed armor saves. 5 make their Feel No Pain roll. So you killed 5 necron warriors with 100 rapid fire bolter shots- at that rate you'll kill a whopping 2 10 man necron warrior squads in 4 turns, of which, one will come back from We'll Be Back. Good Job. I'll be trading in my terminators for Necron Warriors now.

Anyway, its their turn to fire back. There's only 45 of them now, so they get 90 shots. 45 hit. 22.5 wound. But on the bright side, 3-4 of them rended. So 3 of your marines are just plain dead. That leaves 19 wounds. You fail 6 armor saves. You have no Feel No Pain. You have no we'll be back. He killed 9 to 10 of your marines with less guys. Are you sure you don't want to give them all power weapons, 2+ invulnerables, 20 inch flying jump packs, Fleet, Tank Hunters, and Counter Attack while you're at it?

Breton wrote:
Wow. So you're willing to play against a 2000 point army with 50+ models with a 3+ Armor save, 4+ Feel No Pain save, AND your special We'll Be Back? And Stubborn, And you want to give them Rending....Are you sure you don't want to give them all power weapons, 2+ invulnerables, 20 inch flying jump packs, Fleet, Tank Hunters, and Counter Attack while you're at it?

Common Brenton, the Crons needs a break, I mean at least they aren't asking for God of War...well at least not literally

But seriously, this does sound more like a Christmas Wish List :S.

My math was off anyway... 90 shots, 60 hit, 30 wound, 5 Rends, 25 armor saves, 8 fail... 13 dead.

I've just gotten my Necron dex and the 5th edition rules so I don't know quite what changes I'd like to see in the future. One thing that puzzles me, though, is why everyone says the rules around WBB are so hard to understand. To me at least, they seem pretty straight forward, even with the addition of things like the Monolith, Resurrection Orb, etc. It's always been part of the Necron and I think replacing it with FNP would be a mistake, robbing the army of some of its character.

The lack of customization is another aspect of the Necron that make them sort of unique in the 40K universe. Every other army has so many options that you're sometimes hardpressed to make choices; not a problem with the Necron! Seriously, like WBB it adds to the character of the army. They're souless automatons, and you just don't expect a lot of variety in that kind of force. Some new weapons would be nice, but I'm content to stick with the gauss stuff for now.

We're playing 40k MEQ Napoleonics?

OK. I can figure out bricks of models on an open plain...

I have 6x 10 SM w/ PlasC/PlasG backed by 3x 5 SM w/ 4 PlasC.

SM fire:
18 PC = 3 Hot (1 dies), 12 hits = 36 hits, 30 kills
6 PG = 12 shots, 2 hot (1 dies), 8 hits, 6 kills
48 Bolters = 96 shots, 64 hits, 32 wounds, 22 saves, 5 FNP = 5 kills
SM kill 41 Necrons, losing 2 guys to overheat.

I'll round down to 40 kills so the math is easier.

60 remaining Necrons shoot:
120 shots, 80 hits, 40 wounds, 27 saves = 13 kills.

40 wounds to distribute, assume they kill 3PC, 2PG in the process, due to 5E wound allocation...

In the no-tactics example, I think the SM can win the shootout against pure warriors, and that the Rending & FNP isn't unfair.

You feel FNP and Rending is fair when you only account for the FNP?

I likewise have issues with getting 3 models per "hit" on the Blast Template, as well as hitting 2/3 of the time.

Finally, lets drop the Dev Squads and stick with the basic trooper, though feel free to add in Missile Launchers and flamers(as long as we don't bunch up those Napoleonic Necrons so you can tag 9 per template...

So 40 wounds, 6 (almost 7) Rends, 34 to save, 11 fail... 17 dead.

Edit: And don't forget they're changing Res Orbs to let FNP work on AP1, AP2, and Insta-kill wounds... so 30 Plasma dead, 15 save via FNP, 15 still dead... so every other turn 1.5 10 man necron squads will pass their new and improved WBB- net result 20 dead marines from Overheat and shooting casualties, 7.5 dead for Necrons from Shooting Casualties. Still think the necrons will lose this Napoleonic war of attrition?

Breton wrote:You feel FNP and Rending is fair when you only account for the FNP?

I likewise have issues with getting 3 models per "hit" on the Blast Template, as well as hitting 2/3 of the time.

Finally, lets drop the Dev Squads and stick with the basic trooper, though feel free to add in Missile Launchers and flamers(as long as we don't bunch up those Napoleonic Necrons so you can tag 9 per template...

So 40 wounds, 6 (almost 7) Rends, 34 to save, 11 fail... 17 dead.

Edit: And don't forget they're changing Res Orbs to let FNP work on AP1, AP2, and Insta-kill wounds... so 30 Plasma dead, 15 save via FNP, 15 still dead... so every other turn 1.5 10 man necron squads will pass their new and improved WBB- net result 20 dead marines from Overheat and shooting casualties, 7.5 dead for Necrons from Shooting Casualties. Still think the necrons will lose this Napoleonic war of attrition?

If that was 120 shots directed at marines and 80 hits, then you would have 13 rends as the rend is on the to wound roll = 13 dead. Plus 26.7 regular wounds = 8 more dead. Total 21 marines dead.

The SM still win the shootout because they have Plasma.

I'm hitting 2/3 of the time and getting 3 models per template because the misses are balanced by covering 5+ models. Besides, this exercise is shooting fish in a barrel. It's a totally artificial exercise that bears no relevance to reality.

As for dropping the Devs, that won't happen. Every SM army should be fielding at least 1 unit of 3+ PCs. And Tacticals should still be fielding Plasma. Flamers? No thanks.

I'm still not sure what the point is supposed to be.

Regardless of the details, the SM should Phase the Necrons in 3 rounds, while suffering ~40% losses in the process.

The point was to compare their four or five insane changes on just the basic troop type, let alone the more potent ones.

Changing WBB to FNP
Letting the Res Orb remove all restrictions on FNP.
Changing Gauss to Rending
Changing Phase out to 25% of each squad on a squad by squad basis.
Re-adding a New and Improved WBB to let destroyed Necron units come back on as Reserves on a 4+

So 100 vs 100 basic troop using those changes was what I was trying to demonstrate at both basic troop's optimal engagement range.. i.e. one across from the other 12" apart.

So to redo your example:

100 SM fire.

SM fire:
18 PC = 3 Hot (1 dies), 12 hits = 36 hits, 30 wounds, 15 kill, 15 FNP
6 PG = 12 shots, 2 hot (1 dies), 8 hits, 6 wounds, 3 kills, 3 FNP
48 Bolters = 96 shots, 64 hits, 32 wounds, 22 saves, 5 FNP = 5 kills
SM kill 23 Necrons, losing 2 guys to overheat.

2 squads of 10 die, 1 squad comes back.

Net result.. 13 dead, 2 Overheats- 1.5 of the 13 will eventually come back from WBB

87 Necrons fire back:

174 shots, 118 hits. 9 Rends. 18 wounds. 12 save, 6 dead, 2 overheats, total 17 dead.

The necrons kill more per turn with all those rule changes.

So really, there was no point.

If you take the 5 most "insane" suggestions, and stand them up against non-upgraded Marines, then of course the suggestions don't make sense. :S


In my case, I've advocated for a much smaller set of changes:
- FNP
- Rending Bolters
- Phaseout when reduced below 2 units of Warriors

If you want to look at RezOrb, I suggested 4+I within 6" (so maybe they save 3-5 Plasma kills), rather than a global FNP.

If you want to talk about a more rational set of changes, with more rational forces, that might make more sense.