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I am thinking about starting a CSM army. To me chaos is interesting and there aren't many players at my local store. I have always like CC armies (I've played BA, Orks, and Tyranids) but have always wanted to dabble more in shooting. Chaos seems like it gives me the opportunity to be both CC oriented as well as pack a nice punch in the shooting phase as well. I made another thread and got plenty of responses (thanks to those who replied) and I have decided for sure to start Chaos. I already have a Daemon Prince with wings, deathguard, havocs, and a defiler. Being that I already have these, my idea to get a decent army for a good deal is to buy the boxed set from GW. That would give me 1500 extra points and what seems like a good foundation.

Here is the list that I have come up with going that route, please let me know if I should change anything because I plan on using this thread to help determine what I buy.

Daemon Prince Warptime
Wings, Mark of Nurgle 175

Chaos Sorcerer
Term. Armor,Mark of Slaneesh, Lash 140


5 Terminators
Flamer, Asp. Champions, 2x ltn claws 255


10 CSM
2 Flamers, Aspiring Champion, Rhino 210

10 CSM
2 Flamers, Aspiring Champion, Rhino 210

7 Plague Marines
2 Plasma Guns, Aspiring Champion 191

10 Raptors
Icon of Nurgle, Champion w/ PF 290

Vindicator
Daemonic Posession 145

Land Raider
Standard 220

Defiler
RAC, CCW 150

This totals to 1986 pts.

All I would have to buy is the boxed set and then purchase the raptors. My hope with this list is that there is enough tough stuff to shoot at early that the enemies fire is concentrated mostly on tougher targets...Land Raider and the DP. By the second turn the DP, Raptors, both CSM squads, and the Terminators/Land Raider (should it survive) should all be in the enemies deployment zone. I can use lash on 1st or second turns to move units within assault range or strategically move units out/off of strategic positions.

The only thing I'm not sure that I'll like is the terminators. Them in the LR is a big points sink and I am wondering if it would be better to DS the termies and field 3 obliterators instead of the LR. That would give me more fire and a fresh unit later in the game. Though if I do that I might equip them differently. Opinions?

The only time I like making the terms all champs is when they all have lightning claws. When they aren't trying for 25 LC attacks on a charge, they are better off at minimum points with no upgrades at all .. or only minimal upgrades like 4 combi plas(yummy!) or combi melta.

I usually have meltas elsewahre in the army so I go the combi plas route, drop in and zap an elite unit of do gooders which usually makes their shooting or assaulting back not that scary. I often upgrade one to a champ and give him a a chainfist to deal with dreds, wraithlords, etc. and a combi melta(even in a squad with LCx4). Note that if you want to run LC squads they are really only effectvie when pput in a raider.

Meph

overall you need more anti tank at 2k points
i would drop the land raider, its a little bit of a point sink, especially if you dont get possesion it will never kill enough stuff to be worth its points.
get a MOS and a lash for the DP
why get a champion in the CSM squad if you dont get equip for him? 15 points for LD 10, i would rather consider getting an icon of chaos undivided
get melters in your CSM squads.
no need for champion in termi squad
specialize your terminators, either for close combat or for shooting.
don't take a flamer in a close combat squad, if your enemy takes right models away you might not be able to attack anything

Okay so I was thinking the terminator squad be primarily for close combat. Should I drop the champions in the CSM squads to give the rest of the termies lightning claws? This way I can keep the LR and still maximize effectiveness. I still don't have the anti tank if I go that route, but this is all the stuff that I have. Also, as far as playing at my LGS goes, there aren't many armies with tons of big armor. I would love to run some obliterators, but I don't want to spend the extra 50-75 bucks for only 3 models.

Okay, so I'm still needing some help here, I want to incorporate a little more anti-armor, but I don't know how with the stuff that I will have. I could give the champions melta bombs, upgrade the land-raider to have daemonic posession, or (what I am most likely going to do) give the terminators combi-plasma and let them keep their power weapons.

If I drop the terminators down to this configuration, they would cost me 225 pts and I'd still have 20 power weapon attacks on the charge which is surely going to hurt. If I drop the champion upgrade then I get 15 on the charge but it costs me 175 pts for the squad, is this the route everyone would suggest? It just seems like 25 twin linked power weapon attacks would lay a hurt on just about any unit they would ever come into combat with which is why I chose 5 term champions with lightning claws. I don't see the above configuration (saving 25 pts) doing near the damage. Am I wrong in my assumption?

1986

Daemon Prince Warptime
Wings, Mark of Nurgle 175

Chaos Sorcerer
Term. Armor,Mark of Slaneesh, Lash 140


5 Terminators
Asp. Champions, 5 with twin linked lightning claws 250


10 CSM
2 Flamers, IoCG, Rhino 205

10 CSM
2 Flamers, IoCG, Rhino 205

7 Plague Marines
2 Plasma Guns 176

10 Raptors
Icon of Nurgle, Champion w/ PF, 1 Meltagun 300

Vindicator
Daemonic Posession 145

Land Raider
Daemonic Posession 240

Defiler
RAC, CCW 150

I still have 14 points but don't know where to put it. This gives me a little more anti-tank, allows my LR to be more effective hopefully, and still gives me plenty of versatility. There isn't really a unit that doesn't have a purpose or that won't make it's points back I don't think. Does this look better to everyone? Eventually oblits will probably replace either the defiler or vindicator (whichever fails the playtests) but for right now I feel like this is a decent list. Are there any blatantly obvious weaknesses that I am missing?

Thanks,

Obliterators are good anti-tank, once the tanks are dead there good anti-everything else as well.

At 2000 points i'd have at least 6 Obliterators.

Also its pretty simple to make obliterators out of chaos terminators and various weapons from your bits box (all 9 of my oblits were made in this way).



GMort.

if you give the DP lash and change sorc for lord with demon weapon of slannesh,take out a termy stick him in a land raider with termys give them all combi-melta's and a lightning claw,i would give you standard marines a mark give them that edge over the tac squads,tzeech marks are good.

oh dear it looks like you're getting lots of conflicting advice.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Chaos_Space_Marine_Army_Analysis

this is a pretty good analysis of what is competitively good in CSM.

your terminators, first of all, should not be champions. its just not worth the points. 10pts for one attack per model? no thank you. give them an icon of khorne instead if you want lots of attacks. it saves you 20pts. making all the terminators chapions is just to expensive to justify their poins cost. there are better things you can spend them on. i find that terminators with power weapons/fists and guns do a lot more damage than those all given claws buts its down to taste.

your sorcerer doesnt really do anything. there isnt any room for him in the land raider and 2/3rds of your troops are in rhinos. by himself is a very dangerous place to be. i think you should get rid of him and get another demon prince (any kind will do)

CSM arent as good as cult marines. lack of fearlessness is a big drawback. each sort of cult marine will do everything CSM can do and more. i would suggest more plagie marines in rhinos. you also will need to give them meltas to kill big things and tanks.

plague marines, incidentally, really benifit from a champion with a powerfist. after a few games with it you will really see the difference. (its really easy to paint CSM to look like plague marines so get them and save yourself some money)

your raptors are good, a bit out of place in the army, but good. they should have a second melta gun though.

your land raider is fine. as a delivery system for your terminators its an incredibly hard nut to crack. dont be fooled inot thinking its bad because it wont make its points back. that sort of thinking wont win you games. what will win you games is delivering 25 lighting claw attacks on the charge. you should also have it as a dedicated transport for your terminators to free up a heavy support slot.

defilers are bad. AV12 means they wont be around past your second turn. they are a huge target that is hard to hide so you will be losing them really early on. dont use them.

vindicators are only good in large numbers. by itself the impact a vindicator can have is rather limited. i would suggest you dont get it however because you need more...

...obliterators. they are your long ranger anti-tank and long range anti-horde. they are the most versitile unit chaos have and, while armies can be effective without them, if you were beginning i would suggest you have some. if you drop the vindicator and the defiler you have enough points for 4.

Regwon, thanks! That was the type of response I was really looking for. I am going to revise my list with some of your suggestions. I may be limited though as I'm trying to maximize my dollar as far as what I buy right away. Eventually I will definitely have oblits and extra DP's.

Thanks again

i wouldn't buy the box set if you are gonna follow regwon advice,(which is rather good, i remeber the first list i put on dakka based on the same box set as the one your using, regwon destroyed it,good times)

and 2 lash DP's are pretty boring so are masses of obliterators, i would suggest 2 DP's 1 lasha 1 nurgle with warptime and some noise marines and plague marines.

Yea, I think I still would like to get the boxed set and just pick up the Raptors. I don't necessarily want an army that falls into the same thing that everyone else has. I'm sure 2 DP's and 6-9 oblits is competitive, it'd take a 5 year old to not put out damage, but I think doing that just takes away from chaos.

I want an army that is pretty versatile and has different interesting units in it. The one thing I am thinking about doing is dropping the defiler and replacing it with either havocs or adding on to the units above, probably more plague marines.

Does dedicating a LR not take up a Heavy Support slot? I thought they did.

incidentally it really isnt worth buying obliterators as they come. its much cheaper, satisfying and fun to convert them. its easy to do from terminators provided you have spare guns lying around and if you have a defiler or a few IG tanks you most certainly will. you'll end up with better looking models for less then half the price.

Regwon, Do you have any pics of some obliterator conversions? I'll have to refresh my greenstuff skills.

Buy the battleforce.
Possessed make awesome sergeants and conversion fodder.
Buy some wings, file off khorne symbols from the bezerkers..... ta da instant raptors!

Does anyone have any of the deathguard conversions from FW? The models seem pretty cool. Although a bit expensive, it'd be awesome to have 30 Death Guard on the table...that's a lot of T(5) wounds.

A simple change for AT-work...

Combi-meltas on your terminators. My recommendation is MK or Slaanesh. Cheap and gives them +1 I. At least one with a chainfist and you are good to go. 5 Chaos termies with 5 I will own any marine terminator including assault marines and all that for less than he forked out for the 5 lightning claw/TH guys.

Your CSMs could go with two Melta-guns and put a a combi-melta add on your rhinos. For all the joy of dropping flamer templates, 2 or 3 melta shots are better at the high AC things like terminators and the like and will instant kill things like ork nobz so a good choice IMO.
Defilers are there to soak fire and reduce hoards but AV 12 does mean it will die fast. They are good supplement but I would truly rather have two vindicators or lose the vindicators for another landraider. If you go with LR's you could even lose the rhinos and let the CSMs or plague marines ride in style.

Not in the class of obliterators but there is definitely a place for Chosen in 5th ed. With outflanking and the ability to pack 5 special weapons and even put them in a rhino, you can walk in with a combi-melta unloading on 1 tank from the rhino and 2 meltas unloading on another vehicle without even dismounting them. Kind of a mini-razorback chaos style. I think chosen can fill a great AT role especially in the rhino and then you can even go to something like 1 with PWor PF, 2 Flamers and 2 meltas. Not a great mix dismounted but if you stay mounted, you have two flamers to unload on hoards or 2 meltas for AV work.