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 Tokhuah wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
I have seen people mention the Gauss Pylon as being uber. It looks like it costs 475 points, which would seem to price it out of a 2,000 point build. Am I missing something?

Why would it being 475 points mean you couldn't take it in a 2000 point list?

Sorry if I was overly definitive. Using 25% of a 2,000 point build for one model seems extremely risky. At least with x2 DDA you can split them up so they cannot be targeted by the same units (and I still need more proof that taking x2 of those is a good idea).

In some ways I would agree with you, but there are people that play 4 Knight armies and do well in tournaments with them. Single big models are fine in current 40k, especially if the rest of your army can play the midfield like our Infantry and Canoptek units can.

Would you guys say that a gauss pylon and 2 tesseract arks are too many points in a 2000 point army? It's nearly half the army in points.

Some of your points were wrong, but regardless,
I might make the following changes to your list.

 Commissar Arkham wrote:

Spoiler:

Battalion detachment:

-Overlord w/ hyperphase sword (104)
-Overlord w/ hyperphase sword (104)

-8 Tesla Immortals (136)
-8 Tesla Immortals (136)
-5 Tesla Immortals (85)

-Tesseract Ark (246)
-Tesseract Ark (246)

-Triarch Stalker w/ THGC (181)

Super-heavy detachment:
-Gauss Pylon (475)

Outrider detachment:
-Toholk the Blinded (165)

-3 Scarabs (39)
-3 Scarabs (39)
-3 Scarabs (39)

1995 points, 7 CP

You'll struggle with hordes, though.

Any advice on how to improve my lists performance against hordes?

 Commissar Arkham wrote:
Any advice on how to improve my lists performance against hordes?

Quickest would be to drop one of the Tesseract Arks for a couple ABarges or more Troops. Our Troops slots excel at killing hordes (or are at least above average at it), the vehicles not so much. ABarges with Tesla underslung are actually pretty ok at it, though.

After dropping an ark, I could add two immortals to each 8-man squad, give my overlords warscythes, and replace my 5-man inmortal unit with 20 warriors, for a total of 1988 points. This gives me more troops, and better performance against hordes. How does that sound? Thanks for the advice, it's very helpful.

I think 2 Overlords is overkill, personally. If you're planning on doing a blob of Warriors and 9 man units of Immortals, having at least one more Cryptek is probably not a bad idea, or a DLord to be a serious melee contender. But it's not that big of a deal, two uses of MWBD is pretty good anyway.

Wait. You can buy 8 Immortals? Shouldn't You pay for whole 5+5 unit even if you "don't have 10 models" ?

Regarding grading, I won't give Warriors anything higher than a B until Ghost Arks are considered Open Topped. Utterly ludicrous that Warriors can't fire from the top of it, and it hurts the way I like to play my Necrons: MOBILE.

 Xyxel wrote:
Wait. You can buy 8 Immortals? Shouldn't You pay for whole 5+5 unit even if you "don't have 10 models" ?

That's only for Power Level. For Points, you have to buy the min unit but then you can buy any number of models for their point cost.

 Xyxel wrote:
Wait. You can buy 8 Immortals? Shouldn't You pay for whole 5+5 unit even if you "don't have 10 models" ?

It says include up to. That means you can add 1-5 immortals.

A Barges are definitely not D+. They are perfectly suited for QS spam lists and horde control. They put out a stupid amount of dakka verus hordes. They are fast with the uber-significant fly ability and can claim objectives.

col_impact wrote:
A Barges are definitely not D+. They are perfectly suited for QS spam lists and horde control. They put out a stupid amount of dakka verus hordes. They are fast with the uber-significant fly ability and can claim objectives.

A Barges do not degrade and thats cool, but they are nearly 150pts and they put on table the same level of anti orden as 10 bolters, that is not a "stupid amount of dakka" vs ordes in any order.
T6 w8 S4+ is not great for this points, even with QS. As vulnerable to small weapons as warriors (and warriors put more anti orden for the same points), far more vulnerable to autocannons, plasma, starcannons, battlecannon... and all the numerous D2 and DD3. A Barges aren't even particular y resistant to lascanons, with QS 6 lascannon impacts destroy an A Barge at average, the same number you need to destroy, at average, a taurox or a razordback, both of them cheaper and with more antiorde (and transport capacity).

I'd be willing to bump A.Barges up to a C-, but their fragility to price ratio has me concerned (would rather take a NS, ironically)

I can confirm that the sentry pylon with heat cannon and the tesseract arc are A tier. I was wiping out vehicles left and right

I ran a pair of full tesla anni barges the other day and they smashed primaris by themselves. They took the entire starter set pretty easily. They definitely have a lot of firepowe. Don't under estimate hitting on 3s and wounding on 2-3 with a fist full of shots. Maybe I was lucky but I was averaging about 9-10 wounds per barge.

When I fought Primaris Marines their hell blasters took out my barge in a single overcharged volley. My opponent had a pretty good idea on how to fight me though. That I think is the general problem with the barges, if your opponent has a clue, quantum shielding is not hard to get around, and they don't have many wounds or a good save. They make tempting targets for first blood, and they kick like mules, so make a very logical target.

 Kaeldran wrote:

col_impact wrote:
A Barges are definitely not D+. They are perfectly suited for QS spam lists and horde control. They put out a stupid amount of dakka verus hordes. They are fast with the uber-significant fly ability and can claim objectives.

A Barges do not degrade and thats cool, but they are nearly 150pts and they put on table the same level of anti orden as 10 bolters, that is not a "stupid amount of dakka" vs ordes in any order.
T6 w8 S4+ is not great for this points, even with QS. As vulnerable to small weapons as warriors (and warriors put more anti orden for the same points), far more vulnerable to autocannons, plasma, starcannons, battlecannon... and all the numerous D2 and DD3. A Barges aren't even particular y resistant to lascanons, with QS 6 lascannon impacts destroy an A Barge at average, the same number you need to destroy, at average, a taurox or a razordback, both of them cheaper and with more antiorde (and transport capacity).

Out of curiosity, have you actually tested them? Every person who has tested them, like I have, has found them to be potent and well-suited for certain roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boogles wrote:
I can confirm that the sentry pylon with heat cannon and the tesseract arc are A tier. I was wiping out vehicles left and right

Well at least Forgeworld has made Necrons great vehicle killers again!

No one is doubting A.Barges killiness, it's their survivability that we're concerned with.

 skoffs wrote:
No one is doubting A.Barges killiness, it's their survivability that we're concerned with.

As always it depends on what armies you usually play against. If it's horde armies, then the A Barges are pretty good. If your facing Marines, then they will not be as effective.
I tried one out against Orcs and it was terrific. Although I got really lucky with the dice and rolled a lot of sixes.
The Gauss Cannon is very underwhelming with its strength 5 hitting on 4+ since the A Barge should be moving most of the time.

GW really should up the strength to 8 on the Tesla Destructor in the Codex, that would make the A Barge a lot more viable.
Wounding most vehicles on 3+ would make it more versatile.

I disagree with the ratings for Szeras and Orikan. Szeras is a very potent unit buff. Losing the 5++ is a shame, but you're getting an almost-lascannon on a durable body which can hide in a blob. The unit buffs are nearly always good too - even S5 on a warrior buff is extremely effective, especially if the units has Anrakyr nearby; if you roll T5 or BS 2+, you're laughing. Conversely, I've often not found the 5++ to be worth the points - all the small arms fire is going into the unit regardless, and you usually get your normal save against that; it's only really beneficial against AP-2 or better, which usually targets our vehicles instead. Considering he patches up a hole in the army with his weapon, plus hands out RP buffs and potentially multiple unit buffs, I think he deserves a B rating.

The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.

Eyjio wrote:
The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.

I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.

I think Anni barges are best against light tanks and MCs rather than hordes. They are very handy if you're facing Dark Eldar or Necron vehicles and things like War Walkers. Our big anti tank weapons don't care what your toughness and armor save are, which makes them efficient at blowing holes in land raiders, but not so much against things with invulnerable saves.

In 8th the difference between hordes and elite infantry (bikes or terminators) and light and heavy vehicles/MCs seems more pronounced, and it's more important to be using the right weapons for the job.

eg:

Tesla Immortals vs hordes
Destroyers vs elite 2w infantry.
Anni barges vs light vehicles
DDAs vs Heavy vehicles

It's a bit easier for Necrons as our Gauss weapons are pretty good against any of the first 3 categories.

 skoffs wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.

I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.

Yea I've found the 5++ isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you add cover into the mix. I feel szerath is one of the better crypteks, but I still rate toholk as the best of the bunch. All std abilities, buffs vehicles, allows seize rerolls (1st turn has helped me so much), and his weapon is better than average, with scary overwatch damage. Not overly expensive either. Orikan is best ran with lych, he's the best CC cryptek.

I'm not sold on H.Destroyers. Our vehicles (FW included) are comparable in damage and speed, but 10x more durable. I've found my vehicles have saved me from a tabling so I could win on points, something Destroyers can't promise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone complaining about warriors being bad because GA aren't open topped obviously haven't ran a D-bomb with 40 warriors. Putting 40 of them in rapid fire range t1 is a brutal alpha strike. Will shred horde and elite armies front lines equally efficiently. Being open topped would be handy, removing the necessity of 2x 20 man squads and just having 1x 20 and 1x 10 in a GA,

 skoffs wrote:
I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.

Right, but you're not taking Lychguard in every list, and he's a poor fit with Destroyers because he gives them nothing a Cryptek wouldn't plus has terrible movement comparatively. That makes him situationally excellent, but miles away from an auto-take, and often just ends up being quite a lot more points for the same function as a Cryptek. I really think that all the Crypteks are on about the same level, and that level is not on par with other top tier things like Immortals, Pylons, DDArk, etc. I've not played with Toholk, so he may be a little better, but he's also about 5 warriors more expensive than a normal Cryptek so probably also the same. I dunno, the only buff which has consistently made a difference in all my games has been the Overlord MWBD; nothing else has come close other than Szeras, and that's a bit too random to be relied on.

Comparing Tesla Immortals and Anni-Barges against hordes should involve farily straight forward maths.

Could it be that Anni Barges are best used when they are not considered the most important target?

I just saw the FLG's match where Necrons won agains AM in 4 turns. In it Reece had one or two Anni Barges that plunked wounds of Sentinels and tanks, quite undisturbed, while the AM army was busy dealing with warriors, praetorians, H. Destroyers and Lychguard. These other units were played to pose bigger threats, thus the Anni Barges were left alone to plunk off wounds where the other units left a few. Their high strength combined with tesla means they are quite reliable wounders. Leaving only the save statistic to worry about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have the feeling we are better off rating combinations of units.

Perhaps leave a crude score for units such as above, but focusing on combinations for detailed analysis.

Eyjio wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.

Right, but you're not taking Lychguard in every list, and he's a poor fit with Destroyers because he gives them nothing a Cryptek wouldn't plus has terrible movement comparatively. That makes him situationally excellent, but miles away from an auto-take, and often just ends up being quite a lot more points for the same function as a Cryptek. I really think that all the Crypteks are on about the same level, and that level is not on par with other top tier things like Immortals, Pylons, DDArk, etc. I've not played with Toholk, so he may be a little better, but he's also about 5 warriors more expensive than a normal Cryptek so probably also the same. I dunno, the only buff which has consistently made a difference in all my games has been the Overlord MWBD; nothing else has come close other than Szeras, and that's a bit too random to be relied on.

Well toholk helps with anni barges fragility. And the reroll seize is powerful, if not reliable. Bit of redundancy in a tourney setting if up against harlequins etc. Yes I agree MWBD is very strong, but if two HQs are needed and a cryptek is being considered, lash out on the ol blind one. His gun deals additional mortal wounds on 6's, seriously hurt death leaper when he tried a charge last game. If you have warrior blobs and vehicles and are vs'ing elite armies, bring toholk.

I feel szerath is better than orikan. In a standard game a basic cryptek is probably the way to go, if you have the points spare get toholk or szerath. But it's nice having the rest as you can build good combos around them. It's good to have options


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:

Could it be that Anni Barges are best used when they are not considered the most important target?

This is my thinking too. In my QS spam list I hid it behind my monolith, and because I had a tesseract vault and ark absorbing attention, my barge was left to its own devices. If barges are your only vehicles they will die, if there are bigger threats they should be fine.

By the way, If I'm using Immortal squads, is there any value in investing in a Cryptek (or one of the SC Crypteks), or should I just put those points towards more Immortals?

Also I find the Anni Barges comfortably illusive, you remember gorging on all those 6'es that came when you needed them. And forget it's misses.

Tesla is one hit per shot on BS3+, it's not all that. Everybody expects to get more than 4 hits on 4 Tesla dice, though they shouldn't.

torblind wrote:
Also I find the Anni Barges comfortably illusive, you remember gorging on all those 6'es that came when you needed them. And forget it's misses.

Tesla is one hit per shot on BS3+, it's not all that. Everybody expects to get more than 4 hits on 4 Tesla dice, though they shouldn't.

(2/3 * 8) + (1/6 * 2 * 8) = 5.33 + 2.67 = 8 hits.

That seems fine for what it's designed for?