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Our club is very small, like 5-7 guys, and 2 play Nidzilla occasionally. So far, these lists are near unbeatable, the only exception being a Guard player winning in Dawn of War (All the MCs walking across the board.. it was hairy).
As a marine player, nothing seems to work. Scouts can't wound fast enough with snipers and HB. CC? Worthless. Heavies? Can't wound fast enough to kill the 6-7 MCs. Vehicles? Destroyed way too easily.

And the supporting gaunt swarms make things even more difficult. We only have 4'x4' tables, so 12" deployment zones, and Hormagaunts can get into CC first turn!

Any advice?

Well, on 4x4 (I'm assuming 1500 pts games if that small) Nidzilla is going to have every possible advantage.

Hormagants still shouldn't be into HtH on turn 1 in every mission. Dawn of war and pitched battle both have 24" gaps and spearhead is less, but you can deploy back.

If you're playing over 1500 (which would be needed to have the full 8 TMCs and big gaunt broods) then you need to drop down to 1500. 1500 on 4x4 is nobody's idea of ideal, but any higher and things get silly.

As for defeating nidzilla, it depends a lot on your army. With marines, take a fist in every tactical squad and assault the dakka fexes. 2 attacks will kill maybe one marine a turn, while you can whittle him down with the fist. A land raider full of assault terminators can shut down the bigger hitters (gotta love a 3+ invulnerable).

Be mechanized, and avoid getting assaulted or Devoured by staying suited up until you can shoot or assault to best affet.

I'd suggest Dreadnoughts, Devastators, Assault Marines as your strategic base.

The Devastators are obvious: Take three units and divide those units into combat squads, taking Plasma Cannons and Missile Launchers.

Then make sure you take about three Tactical Squads, doing the same, and taking Lascannons and either Plasma Guns or Melta Guns. Split them into combat squads.

Give the Dreadnoughts Lascannons, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, and a Heavy Flamethrower.

Use all three units to shoot at the Monstrous Creatures coming across the board, using the small quantities to make sure you don't do extraneous wounds. The Dreadnoughts counter-assault on anything trying to get into close combat: they'll hit before Carnifecies, and

Remember to use Combat Tactics to pull your squads out of combat with any Monstrous Creatures before throwing your Dreadnoughts in there so the Dreadnought can shoot with its Lascannon and Flamethrower first. The Heavy Flamethrower is there to do the same to hordes, just in case you have no Monstrous Creatures of opportunity.

Which brings me to the Assault Squads: Tyranid swarms and Monstrous Creatures will go down to these unit so long as you charge them first, and especially if you shoot them up first. Gaunt swarms in particular will crumble if you charge them with a Space Marine Assault squad - they actually work best shooting you. Start your Assault Squads on one side of that board and work them across the board, or start them behind your shooters and work them forward to support the Dreadnoughts in their assaults. Don't Combat Squad the assault squads, these are your hammers.

Use a Librarian and a Chaplain to support your troops - the Librarian's psychic powers (Force Dome for an Invulnerable Save, Might of Ancients for smashing Tyrants, or Gate of Infinity for rapid redeployment if you take Flamethrowers with the Assault Squads, use your Force Weapon on Carnifics you've caught or cut out of Synapse range), while the Chaplain's Honour of the Chapter will prevent complications due to pinning or morale checks, and Liturgies of Battle will let your Assault squads hit their hardest.

Play on bigger tables.

Seriously, play on bigger tables.

Start from there.

Oh, and Hormagaunts still shouldn't get into hand to hand 1st turn since it's a 24" zone between and the most they can go is 24 assuming they roll a 6 for running. Just set up 11 inches from the table edge. oh, and play on bigger tables

Sternguard and TH+SS Termies... Those two units will ruin a Nidzilla players day. Don't bother with dreads, they are going to get popped before they do much. Marines for the first time, in a long time, have elites and H.Q.'s that can stand up to the bigger threats on the table. Don't use snipers, too few shots and they allow armor saves. Sternguard and TH+SS Termies. You really want to rip 'um up use Vulcan, 10 stern guard in a drop pod, 2 fists, 10 combi-meltas, combat squad. Thats two dead big bugs the turn they drop. Two, six man TH+SS termy squads, those Thunder Hammers are now Master Crafted.

sternguard are +9 against MCs. rapid fire weapons that wound on 2s kill MCs dead without even thinking. thats the best thing marines have to kill nidzilla. dreadnoughts dont have enough firepower to deal with them, and they get torn appart in CC. sergeants with powerfist are good in CC because of the ablative wounds from the rest of the squad. other than that guns are the way to go. if you have enough anti-tank in your army you should have no trouble dealing with TMCs.

you should not be getting charged on turn1. if you are you are deploying wrong. deploy further back and shoot people. SM are not a combat army. they are a shooting army foremost. they can hold their own in combat but it is not their strong point. deploy further back and shoot the buggers.

Sternguard can be easily neutralized by an army with fast moving assault troops, since they are only as good as Chaos Space Marines in combat, while Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields give up lots of shooting power for limited combat power: they can't destroy units with Sweeping Advances on their own.

On the contrary, Tyranids will have a hard time shooting down Dreadnoughts, and by the time they've waded through all the anti-tank fire that the Dreadnoughts can put out, then the Dreadnoughts will be more than a match for a Carnifex in close combat, thanks to their pathetic Initiative rating, and capable of killing a Tyrant in a pinch.

Moreover, Dreadnoughts are great for helping a Tactical squad out of a sticky situation. Suppose that a Tactical Squad is caught by a brood of Hormugaunts, and either beat them by a narrow margin and make little gain from No Retreat, or get beaten by them and lose the Sweeping Advance when they use Combat Tactics to try and escape the combat. Either way you have a Tactical Squad bogged down in combat, and possibly long enough that either the Hormugaunts will be safe from fire and drag them down, or a Tyranid heavy hitter will join the fray. An assault by a Dreadnought will multiply the win-margin of the combat, and if it doesn't then the Tactical Squad can safely disengage while the Dreadnought is immune to No Retreat.

I dont know if this canwork but do a rhino rush and tankshock the life out of them and take land raider crusader with termis in it, im not a SM player and have limited expereince against them

@Nurglitch
sternguard may be properly neutralized by fast moving assault troops but if properly supported, they can wreak havoc with the other army (some examples of proper support proper anti-infantry covering fire from other elements in the army, libby w/gate ability to jump them out of cc, a unti to counter attack the bugs assaulting the sternguard, etc. )

Now on the thunder hammer terminators, I believe the previous poster's intent was to have the terminators assault the MC and if they make into combat with the MC then they'll most often make a mess of whatever MC that they assaulted, if they get into combat with gaunts then the bug player is trying to tie them up so that his other units can make a mess of the opposing army

On the topic of dreads, I agree with you, that dreads will be able to take a lot of firepower from the bugs but the part that I have to disagree with you on this point the reason being is that they lack the offensive power to reliably put a lot of wounds onto a MC, units like sternguard do. Another note that I would like to make is that I really would not advise for a person to throw a dread into cc with carnifex unless they have 1 or 2 wounds left on the carnifex, my reason being, if the carinifex is left alive it will prob rip the dread a new one and if its a tyrant a person would have to be really desperate to throw a dread into cc with it due to the tyrant's higher initiative because often times the tyrant will either kill or neutralize the dread before it has a chance to swing.

Btw, dreads in support of tac squads in cc with gaunts don't help all too much, if you want a unit to support a tac squad in cc with gaunts i'd suggest an assault squad to counter attack the guants, mainly due to their potential to put out a lot more attacks then the dread could.

I am just not seeing how dreadnoughts will reliably kill Carnifexes or even Hive Tyrants. Hive tyrants have a faster init, and with a str boost to 6 +2d6 ap, it is more than capable of ripping the dread down. Hell if it even rips of a CC weapon it has won. As for a carnifex, what massive amounts of firepower are the dreadnoughts laying down? a twin linked lascannon? an assault cannon? These are not nearly enough to kill a carnifex, even a bare naked fex. As far as CC goes yeah the dread is striking first, but with only 2 or 3 attacks on the charge they are probably getting 1 to 2 wounds max. In return the carnie's 2 or 3 attacks if charging (bare naked) is going to hurt the dread on any ap roll other than double 1's. Maybe I am missing something, but when I see dreads across the field from me as nidzilla, I give a chuckle at the free kills. Granted they are great at holding up the horde, but the MCs destroy them.

I play Nidzilla. They're very strong, and pose a major problem for some lists, and in some missions, but they're not unbeatable. T6 isn't all that amazing. Plasma weapons can chew through Carnifexes pretty fast, and since they're MCs it's hard to get them cover saves.

My current 1750 list is a CC Flyrant, 3 Dakkafexes, 2 Gunfexes, 3 Zoanthropes (Synapse, Blast), 2x6 Stealers, and 3x12 Gaunts (WoN and +1S).

None of those Fexes will go into assault against a PFist if I can help it. They'll lose in the long run, unless the target unit is depleted, or there's support. They don't generally lose quickly, it takes the Fist a couple rounds to finish them off, but they won't get their points back that way.

I'd suggest Dreadnoughts

Have you ever actually tried this? It's a very poor plan to stick a Dreadnaught into a Carnifex. The Dread can do wounds, but he has to do 4, minimum, to kill the Fex. By comparison, the Fex is rolling 9+2D6 and Penning the Dread all day long. Sure, the Dread might knock off a wound or two, but then it's dead, and you just gave up 130ish points.

And that's ANY Carnifex, even the cheapo Dakkafexes. Forget a CC Tyrant, he'll go at I6, and you won't even take a wound off him.

Bottom line, the Dread needs 4 hits to kill the Fex. The Fex needs one.

The statline you want for basic Fexes is S8AP3, Krak Missiles are perfectly tailored to kill them. A squad of ML Devs will not go wrong, especially since it can shoot Frag to deal with Gaunts.

The Sternguard are also a good suggestion, and also solid for shooting Gaunts that are in cover. The one gotcha with Sternguard is their range. I find that my Nids have a certain "sweet spot" in terms of range. The Gaunts can move-fleet-assault up to 18 inches. If they start a turn 18 inches away, this is pretty bad. They're not likely to roll a 6 on their Fleet, so they're probably going to end up, say, 9 inches away, and then get Rapid-Fired off the table. On the other hand, if they start a turn 14 inches away, they're pretty likely to get into CC, withoot ever having spent that turn in 12" getting smoked. So, the trick for the Marine player is to recognize if the Nid player is hitting that "sweet spot" in range, and if so, consider stepping up to get into Rapid-Fire range. You do that in previous shooting phases, so pay attention to what your range was, and what Fleet rolls were made. You REALLY don't want to move up 6" and find that you're still 12.5" away, or only half of your squad is in range.

Gaunts really suck. They're a necessary part of the Tyranid list, and with WoN they're incredibly useful in objective games, they tie up shooting, but they really can't do very much on offense, and they die fast too. I notice that the people I play against tend to be a lot more scared by their numbers than they need to.

In fact, in general I think one of the biggest hurdles in facing a Nidzilla list is getting over the fear. Everyone I play verbalizes some sort of fear at least once during the game. "If I let those Stealers get me, I'll be very sorry." Etc. etc. They're all scared of different things. Just remember, Stealers got a nerf when Rending got nerfed. Gaunts are totally feeble in CC, even with +1S. Fexes are fairly brutal shooters, very tough on vehicles and dreads, but they're hard to hide, and don't get many shots in CC. Keep the Mathhammer in mind, and don't just start running away.

Honestly I think you can't go wrong with some ML Devs and some Sternguard. The units protect each other. The MLs hit from range, the Sterguard protect them as the bugs try to get closer.

If you can build a list from the ground up to beat Nidzilla, I think it'd be a couple ML Dev squads, some Sternguard in Pods, and then maybe an LR with Thunderhammer Terminators. Whatever you want for Troops, but give the Sarge a Fist.

vehicles vs MC's =(
Firepower vs MC's =)
Assault specialists vs MC's =)

I'll second the plasma and missiles approach, and also add in my lack of faith in Dreads.

A Carnifex tooled for shooting is meat for powerfists, so make sure all your squads have one and don't be afraid to play agressively. A unit of basic terminators doesn't do too badly, especially with an assault cannon. They can shoot up the gaunts, and once the gaunts drop below a certain number they are not worth worrying about, and that many fists will absolutely pound a carnifex in close combat. I think they're better in this role than the CC terminators, because they're more flexible.

I haven't used Sterngaurd but on paper they look okay.

Apart from that, focus fire on one thing at a time, don't panic, and play aggressively and you should be okay.

Dreads versus Nidzilla is one of those Theoryhammer things that just doesn't work in application. Their shooting is not good enough to matter and their assault ability is absolutely piss poor. Fail versus swarms and fail versus MCs. The real killer, though, is that by taking Dreadnoughts you are not able to take the two Elite units that can actually put the hurt on Nidzilla: Sternguard and Assault Terminators.

Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers and Assault Terminators or Drop Pod Sternguard with combi plas and Gating Librarians are two lists capable of countering Nidzilla on their own terms. I've also found Lysander to be a monstrously effective HQ choice versus Nids because of S10, 3++, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, and Bolter Drill while attached to Sternguard.

mtgbob:

A couple of things to remember about Dreadnoughts: I suggested them in combination with Devastators and Tactical Squads with anti-tank weapons. The Dreadnought should be entering close combat with a badly wounded Carnifex or Hive Tyrant, the former of which will attack second thanks to its pathetic Initiative. If the Dreadnought needs to do W4 to either sort of creature, you have failed as a general, because that creature should have been shot up while crossing the field.

While the shooting from a lone Dreadnought may only put a dent into a Monstrous Tyranid, and its close combat may only put a dent into a Monstrous Tyranid, several Dreadnoughts in combination with several Devastator squads will put down about two Monstrous Creatures a turn, and ensure that any arriving at a point where they can charge will be easy meat for an assault.

I did point out that attacking a Hive Tyrant with a Dreadnought in close combat was a last resort. That's because you should be shooting these Tyranids up first. While it may seem as though you're wasting firepower on the Tyrant Guard, a lack of Synapse means that the Librarian I recommended can pop the Carnifecies easily with his Force Weapon.

About Sternguard: A Librarian with the Gate of Infinity cannot use it to jump Sternguard out of combat, since unlike the Veil of Darkness, 'Ere We Go, and a third rule that escapes me at the moment, it contains no provision for leaving close combat. Sternguard can use Combat Tactics to great advantage, but a Tyranid player getting them in close combat has essentially won because Sternguard are so expensive for their close combat ability. I left Sternguard out of my suggested strategy because, if they're playing on a 4'x4' board, they won't have the points for both the Sternguard and the anti-tank weapons they'll need for shooting up the Monstrous Creatures, and they won't have the slots for the volume of Dreadnoughts they'll need to make the shooting/counter-assault role effective.

Nurglitch wrote:mtgbob:
While the shooting from a lone Dreadnought may only put a dent into a Monstrous Tyranid, and its close combat may only put a dent into a Monstrous Tyranid, several Dreadnoughts in combination with several Devastator squads will put down about two Monstrous Creatures a turn, and ensure that any arriving at a point where they can charge will be easy meat for an assault.

Cover saves beats Nurglitactics. Big bugs can stand behind little bugs. You're not going to be killing any 2 MCs a turn. Maybe 1 1/2 with 800 points worth of Dreadnoughts and minimized Devastator squads with Missile Launchers, until they get within 18" and counterfire drops you below 1 MC a turn and you die in subsequent phases.

I did point out that attacking a Hive Tyrant with a Dreadnought in close combat was a last resort. That's because you should be shooting these Tyranids up first. While it may seem as though you're wasting firepower on the Tyrant Guard, a lack of Synapse means that the Librarian I recommended can pop the Carnifecies easily with his Force Weapon.

You won't kill the MCs before they reach your guys and slaughter them with shooting and assault. Not on a 4x4 table. Also, a Librarian is S4. He needs a six to wound a Carnifex. Unless you have access to a special 7 attack Librarian that I don't know about, Carnifex just ate 100 points of HQ.

About Sternguard: A Librarian with the Gate of Infinity cannot use it to jump Sternguard out of combat

Point of contention. We'll leave that one alone for now but I say they can.

I left Sternguard out of my suggested strategy because, if they're playing on a 4'x4' board, they won't have the points for both the Sternguard and the anti-tank weapons they'll need for shooting up the Monstrous Creatures, and they won't have the slots for the volume of Dreadnoughts they'll need to make the shooting/counter-assault role effective.

Combi plasma Sternguard in a drop pod kill 2 MCs on the turn they drop. Attach Lysander and now they crush MCs in close combat, as well. 500 points of auto-win.

Sorry double post

@ Nurglitch

I'll concede to you the point about the dread and tyrant in cc, now that I've read your original post but a dreadnought would have to be lucky to survive the tyrant's attacks intact in order to try and wound it.

Now on the topic with the dread's offensive firepower, I did not see a thing in your original post about combining the dread's firepower with dev squads or tactical squads. I wil agree with you that a dread's firepower when combined with tacs and devs they are quite capable of taking out MCs but I believe a person could make better use of the elite choices available to them.

About the sternguard: Concerning the wording of the power in the dex, I'd have to disagree with you about a unit with libbie being able to gate out of cc, nor have I had any disagreements with the guys that I game with or "talk shop with" have seen it that way either. So for the time being, unless GW FAQs it I'll continue to believe that it can be played that way.

Also, I did mention that mention that there are other ways that a player can keep the sternguard out of cc, using a libbie with gate was just one suggestion, here are a few other possible ways that a sternguard player can avoid cc, use the army's anti-infantry firepower on the little guys (gaunts, stealers, etc.) to clear out an area that will allow a sternguard to get in close and begin work on MCs, have another unit in place to screen them or act as a speed bump depending on what the tyranid player is using to assault the sternguard, or just proper positioning using drop pods, rhinos, or raiders.

That and sourclams also makes an excellent suggestion on dealing with MC with sternguard.

Bob, consider this:

HQ: Vulkan: 190 pts

Troops:

2x Tactical Squad x10, flamer and plasma cannon: 350 pts

Elite:

2x Assault Terminatorx8: 640 pts

2x Land Raider Crusader w/multimelta: 520 pts

Fast:

3x Land Speeder w/ Heavy Flamer: 150 pts

Total: 1850 pts

For the first two turns, you just sit there sniping away with your plasma cannons and Land Raider assault cannons / multimeltas with your Land Speeders hiding behind your raiders. Lull your opponent into a false sense of security. On your third turn, tank shock any little bugs with your Land Raiders, pop the Speeders out and flame the ball with your twin-linked heavy flamers.

Bask in the smell of 20 roasted bugs.

Disembark with your Terminators and multiple assault the Dakkafexes. You might lose 2 guys per squad, double if he's got the hugely expensive CC fex or tricked out Tyrantguard.

So now you're sitting there midway through the game, your Terminators just killed four MCs in one assault phase, 1/3 of the little bugs are dead, and your opponent is staring at 9-14 guys with 2+/3+ saves and two Land Raiders that he can only hit on 6s.

like the list sourclams

Just one question, for the 2 10 man term assault squads, I take it you plan on combat squading one or both of them and having 2 combat squads w/vulkan ride in the redeemers and the other 2 combat squads or 10 man term assault squad run behind the raiders

Nidzilla is not hard to beat... you just need to know how.

1) Shoot the synapse first and kill it off.
2) Shoot the carnifexes
3) Don't get close to them
4) Win

I need to get a copy of the Codex Sourclams is using where Land Raiders count as Troops.

Aduro wrote:I need to get a copy of the Codex Sourclams is using where Land Raiders count as Troops.

Transport option for black templars

I play with Nidzilla and I am especially afraid of thunder hammer and storm shield terminators. Lysander is also another model to be feared.

Most shooting in the game doesnt do much thanks to the abundance of coversaves that my warriors give to my carnies and gaunts give to warriors and well gaunts die.

HtH is the best way to stop Nidzilla.

sourclams wrote:Cover saves beats Nurglitactics. Big bugs can stand behind little bugs. You're not going to be killing any 2 MCs a turn. Maybe 1 1/2 with 800 points worth of Dreadnoughts and minimized Devastator squads with Missile Launchers, until they get within 18" and counterfire drops you below 1 MC a turn and you die in subsequent phases.

Big Bugs cannot get cover saves behind little bugs. MCs need to have at least 50% of their body covered to benefit from Cover save.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this is the way rules works on MCs...

well im a nid player and I gotta say that although I like the sound of nidzilla, I doubt I would play it in a game. Why? Cos of the lack of scoring units. Since 5th came out troops have become much more valuable. A nidzilla list just cant compete. U dont even have to destroy all his MCs. Just go for the troops and the MCs that are contending your objectives. Also trying to make an anti-nidzilla list is gonna leave you so unprepared for any other opponents.

U shouldnt have any problems eliminating the threats...especially since you are playing SM. Your heavy firepower is accurate and you have bolters that are gonna cut down whole broods of gaunts at a time.

Oh and I nearly forgot...play on a bigger table

Ky'Alur wrote:

sourclams wrote:Cover saves beats Nurglitactics. Big bugs can stand behind little bugs. You're not going to be killing any 2 MCs a turn. Maybe 1 1/2 with 800 points worth of Dreadnoughts and minimized Devastator squads with Missile Launchers, until they get within 18" and counterfire drops you below 1 MC a turn and you die in subsequent phases.

Big Bugs cannot get cover saves behind little bugs. MCs need to have at least 50% of their body covered to benefit from Cover save.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this is the way rules works on MCs...

Fexes stand behind Warriors stand behind gaunts/stealers. If you set up the models you'll see that it works just fine... a lovely tiered effect.

I need to get a copy of the Codex Sourclams is using where Land Raiders count as Troops.

DURRRRRR. I fixt.

Just one question, for the 2 10 man term assault squads, I take it you plan on combat squading one or both of them and having 2 combat squads w/vulkan ride in the redeemers and the other 2 combat squads or 10 man term assault squad run behind the raiders

I would put Vulkan and one full squad of 10 Terms in 1 Raider and my other squad in the other Raider. The way I would play this list would be as a 1 turn WHOA-WTF army. You do very minimal damage to your opponent until he hits the sweet spot (about 24" in on the table) and then you send your forces forward and kill 1/3 (or more) of his army. The resulting carnage should literally make him scream "WHOA, WTF????"

I want to expose my guys to Nidzilla shooting as little as possible. That means keeping them safely in the AV14. I want to create a giant ball in the middle of the table as his army is forced to get bogged down in 21 3+ invulnerable saves or die to those same Terminators charging into them. Even if all of your Terminators die, it'll take so many of his assets to do so that your Redeemers just sit back idling back and forth 6" and flaming anything that gets spit out of combat alive.

Your troops shouldn't have to do much more than waltz up the field and claim objectives.

This works approximately infinitely times better than trying to plink away at T6 models surrounded by a horde of running bugs with a mediocre gunline.

About the stepped-cover saves thing, that's partly why I suggested Assault Marines as part of the strategy. Their job is to sweep away screens of Termagants and whatnot that's obscuring the Monstrous Creatures. Aside from killing the scoring units in an objective-based game, killing these units and consolidating to one side is great for opening up unobstructed fire lanes in a kill-point game.

The wonderful thing about this stepped-cover configuration, Oo., is that both Termagants and Warriors will be Fearless and will be mulched by the No Retreat! wounds your Assault squads will be able to pile on them. The Dreadnought, of course, has the advantage that if he is going to assault such a unit to mop it up, then he can pop smoke to ensure that he survives the ensuing Tyranid Shooting phase, but he's really there to mop up the Carnifecies, and only in combination with the Assault squads will have the hitting power to demolish a large brood in one or two turns.

Nurglitch: You're right: an MC with wounds knocked off by shooting could fall to a Dread in close combat. But the same is true of any power fist wielding squad, and they don't run the risk of being killed in one hit.

Why are dreads better? I realise that they are cheaper, but they're also less versitile and less durable.