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Da Boss:

It's pretty much a matter of Initiative. Even a Carnifex with an Adrenal Gland is I2, so a Dreadnought is going to hit first. A Dreadnought is not going to hit first against a Hive Tyrant, so charging is a last resort. But against a Hive Tyrant a Dreadnought has the advantage of walking away while shooting. Basically if a Hive Tyrant can catch you, it'll have Wings and won't be resistant to the Devastators and Tactical Marines you'll have gunning for them (or the Assault Squad + Chaplain that I also suggested).

If you're worried about a Dreadnought getting potted in a single shot, there's always Venerable Dreadnoughts, who are expensive, but make up for it with enhanced WS/BS as well as damage-absorbing abilities. Also, remember that a Dreadnought will be invulnerable to all S5- weapons, immune to No Retreat!, can produce its own cover, can spotlight units in night fights, and can move and fire Heavy Weapons.

sourclams wrote:

Just one question, for the 2 10 man term assault squads, I take it you plan on combat squading one or both of them and having 2 combat squads w/vulkan ride in the redeemers and the other 2 combat squads or 10 man term assault squad run behind the raiders

I would put Vulkan and one full squad of 10 Terms in 1 Raider and my other squad in the other Raider. The way I would play this list would be as a 1 turn WHOA-WTF army. You do very minimal damage to your opponent until he hits the sweet spot (about 24" in on the table) and then you send your forces forward and kill 1/3 (or more) of his army. The resulting carnage should literally make him scream "WHOA, WTF????"

I want to expose my guys to Nidzilla shooting as little as possible. That means keeping them safely in the AV14. I want to create a giant ball in the middle of the table as his army is forced to get bogged down in 21 3+ invulnerable saves or die to those same Terminators charging into them. Even if all of your Terminators die, it'll take so many of his assets to do so that your Redeemers just sit back idling back and forth 6" and flaming anything that gets spit out of combat alive.

Your troops shouldn't have to do much more than waltz up the field and claim objectives.

This works approximately infinitely times better than trying to plink away at T6 models surrounded by a horde of running bugs with a mediocre gunline.

You do remember that you can only fit either vulkan and 5 terminators or 6 terminators into a redeemer, right?

God, I don't know how I botched that one up so badly. You're right, they are two models. Well, you can combat squad and run behind transports as you mentioned previously or you can run Land Raider Crusaders and buy Heavy Flamer Land Speeders with the 160 points that you saved.

Actually, now that I think about it, I like 2x Crusader, 16x Assault Marine, and 2-3x Land Speeder Storm/Heavy Flamer more than the original list. The Land Speeders can take cover behind the Raiders and pounce on hordelings once you jump the Fexes.

Nurglitch, you are probably right about killing one Carnifex with a Dreadnought, but it seems risky, or at least, riskier than using Shield/Hammer Termies or maybe Sternguard Veterans...

Yeah, your tactics could work perfectly (I'm not really sure, I should try it before giving any serious opinion) but it seems that there are easiest ways to do it, isn't it?

Ky'Alur wrote:Nurglitch, you are probably right about killing one Carnifex with a Dreadnought, but it seems risky, or at least, riskier than using Shield/Hammer Termies or maybe Sternguard Veterans...

Yeah, your tactics could work perfectly (I'm not really sure, I should try it before giving any serious opinion) but it seems that there are easiest ways to do it, isn't it?

And that's the whole point. If you want to take a Nidzilla killing list, take a Nidzilla killing list. What does Nidzilla have trouble dealing with? AV14, templates, and high Str weapons capable of inflicting a lot of wounds.

Wow, thanks for all the advice. And to all the people who said, play on a bigger table: I wish I could But I'm stuck with 4'x4', so eh.

Sourclams, i think that would work really well. I'll get my friend to drag out his 'Nids again to test it. And i actually have crusaders..

The Dreadnought should be entering close combat with a badly wounded Carnifex or Hive Tyrant

This still doesn't make any sense. If you've got something that can badly wound these MCs, then why spend the points on Dreadnought? Why not spend the points on more of the things that badly wounded it? Then you'll be dealing with a dead MC, rather than a badly wounded one.

Big bugs can stand behind little bugs.

They won't get any cover for doing that... It's very possible to gun down 2 MCs a turn with a reasonably shooty list. Obviously the Tyranid player will be working to avoid this, but it's more down to terrain than anything. If the MCs have cover to move up in, then they're essentially twice as tough, and 2 per turn is very unlikely. But if they have to cross some open space, which Dakkafexes will often have to, with their relatively poor range, they're quite vulnerable.

We'll leave that one alone for now but I say they can.

As do I. I wasn't aware there was even any contention on that.

they won't have the slots for the volume of Dreadnoughts they'll need to make the shooting/counter-assault role effective.

You're confusing yourself. Dreads are crap against MCs. Sternguard are not. Somehow you've decided you don't have room in the list for things that do kill MCs because you have to have LOTS of things that don't kill MCs.

Please, figure this oot. You're making me feel like Stelek over here. Seriously, bring a 1750 list with 3x Dreads against my Nids. You would lose every single time, because you'd have all your points locked up on the single most vulnerable unit SMs can field against MCs. The Gunfexes will beat the Dreads in shooting all day. Any Fex will beat a Dread in CC. It's ridiculous. Leave them home.

a dreadnought would have to be lucky to survive the tyrant's attacks intact in order to try and wound it.

For fun, let's calculate exactly how lucky. We'll use my CC Flyrant as our example (Wings, 2X Scytals, +1S, +1WS, +1I, Flesh Hooks). It has 5A base.

What are the odds of getting a Pen? 2/3 hit, 7/12 chance to Pen. 38% chance to Pen with a single attack.

Ok, and what are the odds of failing to Pen with all 5 attacks? That'd be about 8.5%. Over a 90% chance to get at least one Pen. And that's not even factoring in Glances.

Even talking aboot putting a Dread into CC with a Tyrant is a tall, piping hot glass of clueless.

Going at a Carnifex, I dunno, you might do that if you were in a bad spot, but to recommend that as a core listbuilding strategy to face MCs... Well, that'd put your blood over the legal clueless limit.

I play with Nidzilla and I am especially afraid of thunder hammer and storm shield terminators.

Yup. That's what's funny to me aboot this thread so far, there are SO many things that are really not good for Fexes to CC with. Even models that the Fex can easily kill, CC isn't a place they get their points back.

Literally the ONLY models that a Fex wants to get to CC with are vehicles, Tau Suits, and Dreads. And for some reason Nurglitch is suggesting we build Dreads into the core of an anti MC list.

A nidzilla list just cant compete. U dont even have to destroy all his MCs.

No? Not at all?

The Nidzilla list is very, very strong. Maybe not the best list in the game, but it's up there.

It's not short on troops. In my 1750 point list, I field 5 squads of troops. One short of the max.

And guess what else? Without Number. You can't get more troops choices than "unlimited."

How does without number work in kill point missions though? Are they scoring a kill point every time they wipe the unit out?

Yep, sadly

Da Boss wrote:How does without number work in kill point missions though? Are they scoring a kill point every time they wipe the unit out?

Squig_herder wrote:Yep, sadly

That may be so, but you don't have to bring the unit back once it dies.

True. It sorta presents an interesting choice. Bring it back, and hope it helps you to score a couple more KPs to even it out, or let it die and accept the points that you paid for the upgrade as being wasted.

I haven't played against Nid's too much despite having 2 Nid players in my gaming group. But honestly (aside from finding a bigger table) the best thing to do is really try your best to make a versatile all around list. I am not even a tournament player, but I still make this my goal. A general cannot tailor his army before every battle. He must learn to use what he has and what he knows to defeat his opponent. Just remember whatever you would use to bust a tank will also bust a MC from any army. Take an army list you are comfortable with, try to get a nice mix of options so you can handle anything thrown at you, and learn how to use it all effectively when you face an army that focuses on one type of unit. Other then that I can't be too much help with 5th Marines as once I saw that new dex.... held it next to my DA dex... well I swore off MEQ.

All comers lists and balanced lists are not the same thing. The most ridiculously unbalanced lists are more capable against a wider variety of opponents than the battle set box lists.

sourclams wrote:All comers lists and balanced lists are not the same thing. The most ridiculously unbalanced lists are more capable against a wider variety of opponents than the battle set box lists.

not trying to be a jerk but its sorta arguing semantics with that statement. i was implying all comers by saying balanced. believe me, my idea of balance and GW's idea are worlds apart.