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... From the Codex Space Wolves FAQ:

Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options available to these units in a Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves.

From page 89 of Codex Space Marines:

Tank Commander: Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a Space Marine tank.

Now some are using this as a way to include Chronus in a Space Wolf army. Personally I don't think it's allowed as 1) He's not listed in the FAQ as one of the units that the Space Wolves can take and 2) He's never once listed as an option for any of the Space Marine vehicles. The only rules that allow him to be take as an 'upgrade' (bad wording on GW's part) are the rules for Chronus himself, rules which the Space Wolves do not take from Codex Space Marines. Any thoughts on the matter?

I would agree. Whether or not he is taken as an upgrade, he's not an option listed in C:SW, so he's not an option that's available.

In a friendly game I would let a SW player take Chronus. Surely SOME Longfang has that much experience commanding the SW'S mechanised forces. As a T.O. I would say absolutely not.

Chronus is a separate entry in the Codex, and is not one of the units listed in the SW FAQ, so no Chronus for the puppies. No Telion either.

As a Space Wolf player, I would have to say no.

Unless it's APOC, because everything's allowed in Apocalypse!

No, since hes not listed as an upgrade on any tanks ... hes bought on his own (then later he pick a tank and takes over)

...different variants... would that mean they can take landspeeder storms and iron clad dreads?

Playing Devil's Advocate, Wolves can use all varients and options for the aforementioned tanks that Space Marines have available. Chronus is always bought as an upgrade to a tank which makes him an option for a tank. While certainly you could not place him in a LRE, there is a valid arguement that he is allowed to SWs.

Chronus is not a variant or option for any tank listed in the codex. Only his own rules allow him to be considered an 'upgrade' for a vehicle, rules which as a Space Wolf you don't have access to.

telion is listed as an upgrade for a scout squad though so he can be in as part of the one scout squad which can use codex equipment etc,

course why you'd want to use them when you can use proper wolf scouts is moot

surely the spirit of the rules would imply that the space wolves would have a character "like Chronus". its a big galaxy and the Ultramarines aren't the only ones with tank vetrans!!

but its a game, and if you're playing with your friends for fun, you wouldn't be arguing about how to win...would you?

dr vompire wrote:telion is listed as an upgrade for a scout squad though...

No, he's not. He has a separate entry below the Scout Squad entry.

s.j.mccartney wrote:surely the spirit of the rules would imply that the space wolves would have a character "like Chronus".

"Spirit of the rules" = "What I want the rules to say". The rules don't allow Chronus or Telion to be taken in a Space Wolf army. If it was GW's intention that they could, then why aren't they listed with the other units that Space Wolves can take from Codex Space Marines? By your reasoning, Space Wolves should be able to take each and every special character from Codex Space Marines.

Ghaz wrote:Chronus is not a variant or option for any tank listed in the codex. Only his own rules allow him to be considered an 'upgrade' for a vehicle, rules which as a Space Wolf you don't have access to.

The way I read it, Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank. Space Wolves have acess to all varients and options that the listed SM tanks have. Chronus is an option to some of them, ergo Wolves can take him. This also means Wolves use the new prices for things like extra armor, and other upgrades, too.

Then again, this is just another ambiguous part of the rules from a decade old codex that we can only hope will be cleared up in an FAQ. Or a new Codex, whichever comes first.

dr vompire wrote:telion is listed as an upgrade for a scout squad though so he can be in as part of the one scout squad which can use codex equipment etc,

course why you'd want to use them when you can use proper wolf scous is moot

Telion replaces the Scout Sergeant, which Wolf Scouts do not have.

And again, he's not a variant or option for any unit that they can take. The only thing that makes him an 'upgrade' for a vehicle are rules that the Space Wolves don't have access to. It's his rules that makes him an option, not those of any vehicle. It's like trying to take a Commissar in an inducted Imperial Guard Platoon in a Daemonhunters army. You can't take the Commissar because he's not an option of the platoon.

DragonPup wrote:Telion replaces the Scout Sergeant, which Wolf Scouts do not have.

Space Wolves can equip one squad of Wolf Scouts per the rules in Codex Space Marines.

DragonPup wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Chronus is not a variant or option for any tank listed in the codex. Only his own rules allow him to be considered an 'upgrade' for a vehicle, rules which as a Space Wolf you don't have access to.

The way I read it, Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank. Space Wolves have acess to all varients and options that the listed SM tanks have. Chronus is an option to some of them, ergo Wolves can take him. This also means Wolves use the new prices for things like extra armor, and other upgrades, too.

Another way of looking at it is that Chronus may be an upgrade for a unit, but he's also a completely seperate unit.

So you're upgrading the vehicle which is fine, but you're upgrading it with a unit that the SW don't have access to.

If an upgrade that you may choose to take is not an option then what is?

Space Wolves get access to all options and variants to all the vehicles listed.

Chonos is an upgrade to SM vehicles and therefore SWs may take him.

Cheexsta wrote:
So you're upgrading the vehicle which is fine, but you're upgrading it with a unit that the SW don't have access to.

The FAQ entry says to use the rules from Codex: Space Marines for the vehicles and their options, too.

And exactly where do you see in any of the vehicle entries that you can take in Codex Space Wolves anything about Chronus? The only rules that allow Chronus to be taken as an 'upgrade' (and that's different than a 'variant' or 'option') are rules that as a Space Wolf player you do NOT have access to.

In Chronos' own entry of course.
He's always bought as an upgrade to a Space Marine tank. SWs has access to all options to the listed vehicles (in the FAQ), it doesn't specify a page so you have to use all options in the whole SM codex. Upgrading a tank with Chronos is such an option.

Space Wolves, in accordance with the FAQ, have access to Dreadnoughts (except venerables), Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. All the variants and options are available.

SW are not listed as having access to Chronus.

None of the vehicle entries note that "For +X points, one vehicle in the army may be commanded by Sgt. Chronus."

Since he's his own entry, and not listed under any of the entries that they have access to, I don't think SW have access to Chronus. I realize that there is a differing opinion.

SW would have access to Land Raider Crusaders, Land Raider Redeemers, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts since those are variants and have "Land Raider" or "Dreadnought" in the name. That's very Warmachiney since that's a convention they follow, but it seems appropriate here.

For a tourney, check with the organizer. Because I would disallow his use in any tournies that I would run, and I'm sure that others would as well. For a friendly game, check with your opponent. If you're playing a stranger at the FLGS, don't be surprised if he calls you a sneaky git for even asking. If you're playing APOC, it's fine - as is everything else. I don't think that Chronus is earth-shattering good, but he's pretty solid.

This is totally RAI, but I'm not planning to add Chronus or Telion (except in APOC, and even that's a stretch) to a Space Wolf army because I don't think that SW will have access to them in the next codex. They might have a tank commander and scout unique upgrade characters, but they won't be the same as Chronus and Telion. Probably not even close. That's totally RAI, but if I expect to 'lose' that option when the codex is redone (and for the last two years, the rumor has been that the codex will be redone 'within the next year'), then I'm not going to bother buying, converting, or painting the model. I might slap together a plastic version for APOC, but I have lots of other stuff to build already.

if you read the codex it will tell you that any of the special characters can be re-named and used in any army. Also whos to say he is not temporarilly assigned to a space wolf detachment? Take the sniper guy for instance, the book says he regularly trains scout in for other chapters. Either way you can use any special character from the SM codex in any space marine army. A space wolf grand master with 2 lightning claws as Calagar. They did this because all of the chapters have Heoric and legendary individuals and now they dont have to make 100 different special characters, just 10 or so templates. Even if it didnt say this who would give you trouble? Either convert a model and use the points/stats or say he just visiting and got swept up in a battle either or is plausable. Example I run gazzy as a deathskull warlord the book says there are tons of warlords but gives only one write up for a warlord (gazzy) so paint him blue pay the points, use the stas and voila a deathskull warboss, gazzy isnt the only one with a titanium skull and the ability to inspire his troops.t

da gob smaka wrote:if you read the codex it will tell you that any of the special characters can be re-named and used in any army.

So you can take Marneus Calgar in an Eldar army?

Excellent


Or not. The Codex allows you to build a list from that codex, using any of the Special Characters and painting them as whatever chapter you want. It doesn't allow you to just take those special characters and include them in any army list you choose.

Space Wolves do not use Codex Space Marines in its entirety. They have a specific list of units that they can take from Codex Space Marines. Chronus is not one of those specifically listed units. Nor is Marneus Calgar.

So the only way you could have these characters in a Space Wolves army is by building them entirely with the Codex Space Marines army list and just painting them Space Wolves Grey.


You can certainly 'borrow' elements from one list and include them in another with an opponent's permission... but it's not allowed by the codex as it stands.

dietrich wrote:Space Wolves, in accordance with the FAQ, have access to Dreadnoughts (except venerables), Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. All the variants and options are available.

SW only have access to the items with the *exact* names specified in the FAQ.

By "variants and options", they mean a Predator can be upgraded to Annihilator variant taking sponson options.

dietrich wrote:SW would have access to Land Raider Crusaders, Land Raider Redeemers, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts since those are variants and have "Land Raider" or "Dreadnought" in the name.

Except, "Land Raider Crusader" isn't "Land Raider" and "Ironclad Dreadnought" isn't "Dreadnought".

As much as I don't like the decision JohnHwang, I have to disagree. a Land Raider Crusader is a variant land raider just the same as the Predator Annihilator is a variant predator.

While I think taking Chronus is dubious and probably not within the rules they clearly intended for atleast Ironclads to count, because of the choice of words "have access to Dreadnoughts (except venerables)"

So obviously the phrase "Dreadnoughts" in this situation encompasses more than one unit type, at the minimum basic dreads and venerables, but there's nothing that makes a venerable dread any more synonymous with "Dreadnoughts" than an ironclad, so if they specifically excluded the venerable dreads but not the ironclads they can definitely be taken,

The Land Raiders are less clear but I would take this precedent of being able to take a range of units with names similar to the one given and include them to say all Land Raiders are valid.

Personally I think space wolves should just still be working with the 3rd edition marine codex to avoid the confusion but apparently GW disagrees.

You're welcome to disagree, but that isn't what the rules say.

The rules say "Land Raider", not "Land Raider Crusader".

The SM "Land Raider" entry doesn't say "may exchange Lascannons for Hurricane Bolters, Heavy Bolters for Assault Cannons, and gain +5 Transport spaces for FREE".

So it's an apples and oranges comparison, because the Annihilator options are clearly listed under the Predator entry.

Since the list specifically excludes Venerable Dreadnoughts, it suggests that any other variant is acceptable. If the intent was that SW can only take the SM Dreadnought, then there's no need to specifically exclude Venerables, since they already would be, and would read like, "SWs take the following units from the SM codex: Dreadnoughts, Landraiders..." Or the entry should read, "SW can take the following from the SM codex: Dreadnoughts (excluding Venerables and Ironclads)..." Since Land Raider Crusader has Land Raider in the name, it appears to be a 'variant'. If the list entry was just "Crusader", then I would say it is a lot more questionable.

The option to upgrade a Predator with the twin-lascannon is an option. It's not a variant. It's an option for the base vehicle. So why state that you can take all variants and options, if you're only allowing options from the main entry?

The bottom line is this is a questionably worded FAQ. There's 0.1% of the gaming community that will give you John's answer that SW can't take Land Raider Crusaders, etc. If it's a game at the FLGS, you can ignore them (and I would). If it's a tourney, the Tourney Organizer makes a ruling, and I can't imagine any would say that SW can't take variant Landraiders or the Ironclad. I sizable percentage of the 40k community will say that SW can't take Chronus or Telion, etc. If it's a tourney, check with the Organizer (I argued for years that WGBL shouldn't get WGBG heavy weapons, but was FAQed to allow it). If it's a friendly game at the FLGS, then it doesn't probably matter. And at the end of the day, you can just play APOC where anything is allowed (inclding SWs taking the SM Venerable Dreadnought, but I don't know why you would when the SW one is way better).

Given that SW have Venerable Dreadnoughts as a separate entry, clarifying that the SM Venerable Dread doesn't apply is helpful, but doesn't affect the fact that none of the other named items are part of the specific list given in the FAQ.

Whether you want to recall the Pred "Annihilator" as "variant" or "option" makes no difference. It's still a "Predator" as specifically named by the FAQ.

The point of the "variants and options" is to say that yes, you can use the options as allowed in the unit entry, rather than some other set of upgrades / options / variants.

If you want to talk about wording changes, then the FAQ should have said "variants such as Crusaders and Redeemers". But it doesn't. Therefore, by omission, you cannot assume Crusaders, Redeemers, or Chronus.

The "bottom line" is that you're making stuff up because you want to read stuff into the FAQ that isn't clearly stated. If the FAQ included "LR Crusader", then you would be right. But from a strict rules standpoint, no, SW don't get Crusaders, they don't get Redeemers, and they don't get Telion because they aren't named as part of the "Land Raider" entry. It's just that simple.

As for "0.1%", you pulled that number out of thin air. If you want proper numbers, you should ask "What does the FAQ state", NOT "what would you allow in casual gaming", and NOT "what would you try to convince a SW-friendly TO to accept". At that rate, you might as well argue that we should accept things like Bloodcrushers on undersized bases that can deploy in DoW missions...

That is why GW rules are permissive, rather than exclusive. If the Rules don't clearly state that you can do something, then the default is that you can't. Arguing that "it doesn't say I can't take Crusaders" is a failed argument.

The point is that people need to be aware that they're bending the SW FAQ, and this isn't necessary. The FAQ should be interpreted as a standalone document, to set a strict rules baseline. And that baseline from a literalist RAW interpretation does not include Crusaders or Redeemers.

The FAQ is poorly worded and phrased. It should have stated, "SW have access to the following: Land Raiders, Land Raiders Crusaders, etc." instead of 'Land Raiders and all variants.' Or they should have defined 'options' to be anything listed in the unit entry (so the Annihilator is an option) and 'variant' is anything with "Land Raider" or "Dreadnought" in the unit name.

GW put out another shoddy FAQ and we're left as a community to deal with it.

People need to realize that I have seen only one person, JohnHwangDD, on this board state or B&C state that SW don't have access to Crusaders and Redeemers and Ironclads (and I don't read every post on every board, so maybe he's not - it's just the only poster I've seen express that viewpoint). When there's only one dissenting poster on an issue, it appears to me that the general community has adopted one side of the issue as the gaming norm (and at times, I've felt like I'm the single poster with a dissenting view).

I would be very surprised if a SW player showed up at the FLGS with a SW Redeemer and someone told them their list was illegal. And if it's the FLGS, they just need to find someone else to play with their Redeemer. If it's a tourney, they should check before showing up 'just in case'. And, if it's APOC, it doesn't matter, anything is legal.

But, back to OP. There's a lot more unclarity as to whether Chronus is allowed in a SW army. I don't think he should be fielded in a SW army. If it's your FLGS, don't be surprised if a significant percentage of people say it's illegal. If it's a tourney, check first, and don't be surprised if the organizer says no. If it's APOC, it's fine.

Now, I'm going back to finish my Redeemer and convert and ironclad.........

I would say for tournaments no, for friendly games go ahead, and give him GS hair and a beard so he fits in

What's the likelihood that the 5th ed Space Wolves codex will contain rules content that opens up this option?

dietrich wrote:The FAQ is poorly worded and phrased.

People need to realize that I have seen only one person, JohnHwangDD, on this board state or B&C state that SW don't have access to Crusaders and Redeemers and Ironclads (and I don't read every post on every board, so maybe he's not - it's just the only poster I've seen express that viewpoint). When there's only one dissenting poster on an issue, it appears to me that the general community has adopted one side of the issue as the gaming norm (and at times, I've felt like I'm the single poster with a dissenting view).

I would be very surprised if a SW player showed up at the FLGS

The SW FAQ is actually *very* clear in what it says, as long as you don't go adding stuff that it doesn't say. The "problem" is that it doesn't state what you want it to state. So assuming that GW wanted SW to have Redeemers and Crusaders and Chronus when they didn't actually state this is a bit strange.

The only reason you've seen one person is because it hasn't been broken out as a specific YMDC topic with a poll feature. Instead, the discussion is confined to a related discussion of "Chronus".

And once again, we're not talking about what people would allow in a friendly game at the FLGS. We're talking about what the SW FAQ allows.