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FAQ wrote:Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and
rules from Codex: Space Marines for
Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,
Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and
Vindicators. All of the different variants and
options available to these units in a Space Marine
army are also available to the Space Wolves. The
exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,
which must be chosen from the Space Wolves
army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the
Space Marines army list.

Perhaps it could be MORE clear, but this is definitely clear. "all variants AND options." This quite clearly says that SW can use "land raider variants," which includes crusaders and redeemers. Note also that since this FAQ was written WITH the 5th ed SM codex in mind, Venerable Dreadnoughts are a VARIANT of regular dreadnoughts, not an upgrade. That Venerable dreadnoughts "are an exception" is further PROOF that that is the meaning of this passage. Quite frankly I don't understand how anybody could read this any other way. "Annihilators" and "Destructors" as of the 5th edition codex are no longer "variants" simply "options," as the difference is what you upgrade the main turret to. Saying that you cannot take LRCs or LRRs is contradicting what is said in the RAW according to the FAQ.
I mean really, what else do you take "All the different variants" to mean?

Chronus on the other hand....
I would say no. I would fully be willing to allow a house rule for it, but RAW I don't think it's allowed. His rules say "bought as an upgrade," but as people have said he has a seperate entry in the book. Since he is not in the list of things SWs can take, it's a stretch to argue that you can take him just because his rules say you can. SWs get access to specific parts of the C: SM, and since Chronus is extraneous to those specific parts he can't be taken.

sourclams wrote:What's the likelihood that the 5th ed Space Wolves codex will contain rules content that opens up this option?

Given that:
- GW is pushing to differentiate the various MEQs;
- BA, DA, BT, and CSM can't take Chronus, Ironclads, or Redeemers; and
- SW are supposed to be "major deviance" from Codex: SM,
I'd say the likelihood that the SW would somehow fall back into the fold with full use of Codex SM vehicles is *very, very* low.

dietrich wrote:People need to realize that I have seen only one person, JohnHwangDD, on this board state or B&C state that SW don't have access to Crusaders and Redeemers and Ironclads (and I don't read every post on every board, so maybe he's not - it's just the only poster I've seen express that viewpoint).

It's been a fairly consistent view on Dakka in rules discussions that unit names are very specific, so a 'Dreadnought' is a different thing to a 'Venerable Dreadnought' and a 'Land Raider' is likewise a different thing to a 'Land Raider Crusader'

Fluff-wise, they might be the same tank with different weapons, but rules-wise it can be argued that they're simply two different units that happen to share a similar name.

Whether or not that's what GW actually intended is up to them to explain...



Edit: And personally, I'm taking 'all variants' as meaning 'all variants'... So they can take the various types of Land Raiders.

Chronus is still not an option, though, since he's not on that list.

They don't define Variants and the don't define Options. If you define -
Options: Anything in the unit entry (like Land Raiders can take Extra Armor for +X pts)
Variants: Anything that has "Land Raider" or "Dreadnought" in the unit name, like "Land Raider Crusader"

Then SW have access to LRC, LRR, and Ironclads.

If you don't take Variant as 'anything with Land Raider in the name' then what is a Variant, and why is it different than an Option?

Since SM Ven Dreads are specifically excluded from the list, and they are their own unit not an option to a Space Marine Dreadnought, it suggests that other entires with Dreadnought in the title are allowable. Which then suggests that Variant would mean 'anything with Dreadnought in the name'.

The FAQ should have either 1) defined what is a variant and option or 2) just specifically listed each unit that SW have access to.

And John, we're both interpreting the document. Just differently. You're interpreting variant equals Predator Annihilator. I'm in interpreting option equal Predator Annihilator and variant equal Land Raider Crusader.

My gut feeling is that against 99% of opponents and in 99% of tournies, this is not an issue and they'll have no problem if you field SWs with a LRR, LRC, or Ironclad. Now, if Adepticon puts together an FAQ that says the can't take those entries, I'll once again be proven wrong (and I still disagree with the FAQ allowing WGBL to take WGBG heavy weapons - but it is legal now).

At the end of the day, the hobby is meant to be fun for both opponents. As Jervis would say, there's an unwritten rule that you're both to have fun in the game. If you'll have more fun fielding Ironclads, LRCs, and LRRs, field them.

insaniak wrote:It's been a fairly consistent view on Dakka in rules discussions that unit names are very specific, so a 'Dreadnought' is a different thing to a 'Venerable Dreadnought' and a 'Land Raider' is likewise a different thing to a 'Land Raider Crusader'

Normally, I'd agree with you. But, I'm taking 'variant' to be 'anything with X in the name', otherwise I don't know how 'variant' is a separate category from 'option'.

dietrich wrote:At the end of the day, the hobby is meant to be fun for both opponents. As Jervis would say, there's an unwritten rule that you're both to have fun in the game. If you'll have more fun fielding Ironclads, LRCs, and LRRs, field them.

True. However, we're not talking about "fun" (which allows SW to take whatever the hell they want) - we're talking about *rules*.

The big difference is that you are *adding* clauses to create the conclusion you want. I simply go with exactly what is stated in the SW FAQ, no more, no less.

In any case, if Chronus is an "upgrade", then he is not a "variant or option", so he is definitely disallowed by any proper reading of the rules.

And just because GW doesn't define "variant", that doesn't create a basis for you to add things that they didn't say. Otherwise, Fleet and/or Open-Topped override the Deep Strike restriction on Assaulting.

dietrich wrote:Normally, I'd agree with you. But, I'm taking 'variant' to be 'anything with X in the name', otherwise I don't know how 'variant' is a separate category from 'option'.

Does this mean that Inducted Guard in C: WH / C: DH can take Demolishers, as they have "Leman Russ" in the name?

How about IA Exterminators?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

dietrich wrote:Normally, I'd agree with you. But, I'm taking 'variant' to be 'anything with X in the name', otherwise I don't know how 'variant' is a separate category from 'option'.

Does this mean that Inducted Guard in C: WH / C: DH can take Demolishers, as they have "Leman Russ" in the name?

How about IA Exterminators?

Does it say "Leman Russ and all variants" or just "Leman Russ"?

And IA is a totally separate category.

Why should it matter? It says "Leman Russ", and those tanks are Russes.

Because I would take those tanks to be a variant of the main tank. If it said "...and all variants and options." then I would interpret that to mean a LR Demolisher is fine.

If the SW FAQ says that SWs may take: Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, Landspeeders, etc. and their options - and didn't say anything about the variants, then I would agree that SWs could take Land Raiders but not LRCs and LRRs.

And IA is separate because those are Forgeworld rules, a lot less people in the gaming communit own them, they may or may not be allowable in a tourney, and aren't considered 'mainstream' like a codex entry.

So? People can convert. It's not hard.

What about Helios, Ares, and Terminus Ultra "variants" - obviously, GW intended those to be played, too?

no johnTwangDD, since they're not in codex SM

JohnHwangDD wrote:So? People can convert. It's not hard.

What about Helios, Ares, and Terminus Ultra "variants" - obviously, GW intended those to be played, too?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should it matter? It says "Leman Russ", and those tanks are Russes.

What a ridiculous strawman. There's a difference between "may take a leman russ" and "may take land raiders and ALL VARIANTS OR OPTIONS"

If it said may take land raiders, then they may only take "land raiders," however that is quite explicitly NOT what they said, they said "may take all variants." What do you think variants mean?

Helios, Ares, terminus ultra are "variants," but they're not in the space marine CODEX. Those are all imperial armour, and if the IA book that they're in says that space wolves may take them, then space wolves may take them. If not, then they're not in the Codex: Space Marines, so Space Wolves may not take them.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So? People can convert. It's not hard.

What about Helios, Ares, and Terminus Ultra "variants" - obviously, GW intended those to be played, too?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should it matter? It says "Leman Russ", and those tanks are Russes.

What a ridiculous strawman. There's a difference between "may take a leman russ" and "may take land raiders and ALL VARIANTS OR OPTIONS"

If it said may take land raiders, then they may only take "land raiders," however that is quite explicitly NOT what they said, they said "may take all variants." What do you think variants mean?

Helios, Ares, terminus ultra are "variants," but they're not in the space marine CODEX. Those are all imperial armour, and if the IA book that they're in says that space wolves may take them, then space wolves may take them. If not, then they're not in the Codex: Space Marines, so Space Wolves may not take them.

Case closed. I agree also that Chronus and Telion are not allowed in SW.

dietrich wrote:Normally, I'd agree with you. But, I'm taking 'variant' to be 'anything with X in the name', otherwise I don't know how 'variant' is a separate category from 'option'.

...which is what I said...

dietrich wrote:People need to realize that I have seen only one person, JohnHwangDD, on this board state or B&C state that SW don't have access to Crusaders and Redeemers and Ironclads (and I don't read every post on every board, so maybe he's not - it's just the only poster I've seen express that viewpoint).

I know that i posted this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/223815.page ( towards the end of the page ) a few days after you said that.

So now JohnHwangDD doesn't have to feel lonely. A summary of the post :

crusader - yes
redeemer - yes
storm - no
ironclad - no

Not a complete agreement with JohnHwangDD but we can now make it 1.5 people.

As for Chronus? I am leaning with no in a SW army. I would like one, but I feel the rules say no.

If SW were supposed to fix tanks they would give iron priests the blessing of the omnissiah in an faq.

Instead all he has is his servo arm option which no longer, thanks to the new C: SM, lets him repair vehicles.

Hanging around repairing our tanks? The emperor will protect ours while little will protect theirs from being hit by a thunder hammer / servo arm combo.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

FAQ wrote:Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and
rules from Codex: Space Marines for
Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,
Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and
Vindicators. All of the different variants and
options available to these units in a Space Marine
army are also available to the Space Wolves. The
exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,
which must be chosen from the Space Wolves
army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the
Space Marines army list.

Chronus on the other hand....
I would say no. I would fully be willing to allow a house rule for it, but RAW I don't think it's allowed. His rules say "bought as an upgrade," but as people have said he has a seperate entry in the book. Since he is not in the list of things SWs can take, it's a stretch to argue that you can take him just because his rules say you can. SWs get access to specific parts of the C: SM, and since Chronus is extraneous to those specific parts he can't be taken.

Exactly what I was thinking, but way better worded than how I would write.

The rule (RAW wise) only states "variants and options" and Chronus's own rules states he is an upgrade, not an option (the "not an option" part is not in the codex) . Those two words have very different definitions with both English literature wise and GW rules wise.

OTOH, Chronus isn't mandatory, therefore he is an optional upgrade, ergo, an option...

If I remember correctly Chris from GW got a ruling on the variant options awhile ago.

Allowing Space wolfs to use all variant options. Which one of them was allowing Space puppies to use Ironclad dread and the land speeder storm. Its somewhere in the Kommando forums

JohnHwangDD wrote:OTOH, Chronus isn't mandatory, therefore he is an optional upgrade, ergo, an option...

funny you say that, wasn't there an earlier thread that talked about that extremely suspicious line the writer put in for him:

"Chronus MUST be assigned to one tank in the army." (emphasis mine) I know, I know, this has been talked about and we are pretty sure he is supposed to be (as you said) an option of sorts.

sorry to de-rail.

@Darkwynn: until GW actually publishes something, the ruling isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

@pad: right - he's an upgrade option that must be assigned.

Really, this whole nonsense is why GW ought to just WD the SW in when SM Wave 2 comes out and be done.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should it matter? It says "Leman Russ", and those tanks are Russes.

Uh, the Wolves' Leman Russ Exterminator isn't mentioned in the FAQ - it has a complete and separate entry in the SW Codex. The only Russ Wolves can take is the exterminator variant, because that's the only one mentioned in either it, or the FAQ. It has no bearing to this argument whatsoever.