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Hey,

Instead of thread-jacking the thread on Chaos Space Marine Dreadnoughts, I thought I would start a separate thread to discuss a proposal. Here's the proposal:

Instead of rolling on the Crazed! table at the beginning of every turn, the player may roll on Crazed at the end of enemy Shooting phase if a Chaos Dreadnought has suffered any Shaken or Stunned damage results.

Your thoughts?

Alternatively, the player rolls on the Crazed! table if the Dreadnought suffered any Shaken or Stunned damage results in the previous player turn.

Ah, l'espirit d'escalier.

Well, my preference would be to get rid of random kookiness like Crazed! and Possessed tables entirely. It's not fun or novel, it's just poor design.

Your solution is reasonable, however. Basically, it means CDs tend to get angry and fire randomly rather than sitting there. They can potentially still kill things when shaken/stunned. They remain inferior to loyalist dreads in terms of options, especially deployment and arming. It also makes extra armor rather pointless on them. Maybe make stunned roll 2 dice and use the worst result or -1 to the roll or something?

But at least it makes them playable, which is commendable.

I think that it seems more reasonable. It indicates the Dread getting angrier as it joins a battle, makes a bit more sense in the fluff.

jmurph:

I should have included a sketch of design notes describing my motivation for this proposal. The basic idea is a house-rule that can be easily implemented, and compatible with the rules in Codex: Chaos Space Marine.

Essentially it's a weaker version of the Possessed upgrade that Dreadnoughts no longer get; they can't ignore Stunned/Shaken results completely, after all they're sane most (4/6) of the time, but they can gain some 'benefit' (2/6) and stack it with Extra Armour.

Remember that Crazed! isn't just about a Dreadnought getting angry and shooting, but also about getting angry and charging (with a Fleet enabled Run) towards the closest enemy.

That said, I would like to disagree about whether this makes Extra Armour worthless. Extra Armour down-grades Stunned to Shaken, which is good because a Stunned Dreadnought will not be able to move or shoot in the next player turn if it remains Sane (results 2-5 on the table). It's only when a player rolls a 1 or 6 on the Crazed! table that the Dreadnought will go out of control and ignore a Stunned result.

I feel the reactive version of crazed is a bit to controlled by an opponent's actions.
(ready, aim, GLANCE!)

I like the image of the dreadnoughts being held in check by other units in the army.

Maybe something along these lines:
At the start of your turn, if the chaos dreadnought is more than 6" inches from a non-mindless model outside of close combat with a leadership trait roll on the Crazed! table.

I'd go along these lines:

Dread suffers damage from a ranged attack
- If the unit(s) that caused the damage is within range, the dread shoots all weapons at that target twice and does not move. For multiple units that caused damage, the dread's controlling player chooses the target.
- If the unit(s) that caused the damage are out of range of the dread's weapon systems, the dread gains the fleet of foot rule.

Dread must charge if a unit is within melee range.

Shoot the dread and face it's wrath.

I would just refuse to do crazed and if my oponent doesnt like it then **** him!

... you know if i was designing the crazed rule i would have made it an upgrade for X-pts ...

Crazed ... fleet and ignore stunned and shaken. In CC the Dread has an extra D3 attacks ... The dread pilot wants to die in battle, when moving will always move towards the closest enemy ... this is not always the best course of action so he can be remotely stopped ... this does not make the dread pilot happy and he will fire all weapons twice at the close target friend or foe

Or...you could just accept the Crazed table exists and happens....

yep most people have ... which is why its rare to see dreads in chaos armies

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Or...you could just accept the Crazed table exists and happens....

are you actually suggesting that we should not come up with ideas to make the game better. the rules are full of holes and imbalances but if the very players themselves dont try to make a difference then we will be stuck with it until god knows when.

the very least we can do is come up with house rules to make our own games more enjoyable.

Although I agree that the Chaos Dread needs some serious work in order for anyone to take it, there seems to be a fine line between making the mechanic interesting or viable and making it a super powered killing machine for no extra cost.

Simple answer? Allow a Daemonic Posession upgrade, with added points as it would then ignore the Crazed! bit.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Simple answer? Allow a Daemonic Posession upgrade, with added points as it would then ignore the Crazed! bit.

Perfect. Makes more sense that CSM would just put demons in it like all their vehicles.

Techboss wrote:I'd go along these lines:

Dread suffers damage from a ranged attack
- If the unit(s) that caused the damage is within range, the dread shoots all weapons at that target twice and does not move. For multiple units that caused damage, the dread's controlling player chooses the target.
- If the unit(s) that caused the damage are out of range of the dread's weapon systems, the dread gains the fleet of foot rule.

Dread must charge if a unit is within melee range.

Shoot the dread and face it's wrath.

I think that would be great, and the thing about leaders being 6 inches away. That would make alot of chaos games alot more fun. It makes not want to shoot the dreadnought, and if you do you face its wrath. Now, lets see that happen for an ork unit...

sourclams:

I agree. That's why I made my proposal that Crazed! worked like a partial Daemonic Possession to make it possible for the Chaos Dreadnought to ignore Stunned and Shaken results (at the cost of running out of control).

The mechanic is interesting because it doesn't just prevent a Shaken or Stunned result from happening, but leads to two possibilities:

Either a Dreadnought is Shaken or Stunned (2-5 Sane), or it goes into a Fire Frenzy or a Blood Rage (1, 6, respectively).

Since whether Fire Frenzy or Blood Rage is a positive thing depends on the Dreadnought's proximity to the enemy, I think it makes it tactically interesting.

It's tactically interesting because if you stand to receive a charge from a Dreadnought in a Blood Rage, or have a valuable unit on the receiving end of a Fire Frenzy, you may not want to risk firing at the Dreadnought. And if you can prevent the Dreadnought from firing, or get it to fire on friendly units, then it's a very valuable target.

What I think this change does is provide further encouragement to close the Dreadnought with the enemy, and to play aggressively with it, since damage can enhance its effect.

I have a CC Dread, so this makes no difference at all.

Imperial Guardsman 1: Blam! We got it!
Imperial Guardsman 2: Nope! We just made it angry.
Dreadnought: RAAAARRRGH!!!!!!!!!!!

I like this rule.