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Converted up a slew of jetbike warlocks/farseers over the past couple months and have been testing variants, this is what I've settled on for now, but wanted to see what the dakka dakka folks thought of it. IMO, it has good anti-horde and good anti-tank, along with some heavy hitters and some good scoring units.

Built for 1850 and 1750, see below

No Avatar, No Eldrad, No Heavy Support, No Elites, still heavy handed.

1850

HQ: 1045

Jet Council 1: 530
1 Farseer: Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike -> 175
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden Jetbikes ->355

Jet Council 1: 515
1 Farseer: Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Jetbike -> 160
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, Jetbikes ->355

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Total: 1840

1750

HQ: 955

Jet Council 1: 485
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike -> 130
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden Jetbikes ->355

Jet Council 1: 470
1 Farseer: Fortune, Jetbike -> 115
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, Jetbikes ->355

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Total: 1750


Simple and efficient

Jet councils stay fortuned and go after the opponent at relatively full tilt, dooming the units that the dire avengers will be firing upon. 2x Embolden/Enhance means I'll be able to keep those on the squad

Dire avengers are there for anti-horde and more importantly staying alive to take objectives.

Brightlances on the serpents should provide some decent AT at range, before the Jet councils get in and slap enemy vehicles in combat

Whole army is very mobile, nothing will need to sit around or get babysat by other units, so I can avoid board edges, snikrot from behind, outflankers from the sides, etc, and the whole army is relatively resilient versus deepstrikers (in tanks or fortuned with a 3+ rerollable armor or a 4+ rerollable invulnerable)

Lets hear the comments, from rave reviews to brutal flames!

Edit: Fixed a typo
Edit: Added specific 1750 and 1850 builds

I like it but I always liked jetbike councils.

Put Runes of Warding on one of the Farseer for Psychic Power defense. Drop the Destructors. They aren't much good if your not running 2-3+

Consider Mindwar on one of the farseers for killing Painboys, power fist sarges and heavy weapons troopers.

Also make the list for 1750 since most GTs and RTTs are 1750.

3 troop choises that arent that resiliant should put some more troops to take and hold objectives

Why drop the distructors? In this cover save heavy environment denying cover saves is good, so I heard.

You not fan of jetbike squads? They have mobile fire and can get 3+ inv.

Reason for dropping destructors:

-Points, in order to be effective you need 2-3 in a squad I'm thinking, and I can't fit that in with 2 councils at 1750.

-Now that I re-read the rules, and realized you can indeed take invulnerable saves against failed dangerous terrain tests, I don't fear moving through cover. I had them before as an option to assaulting an enemy in cover, however if I only take 1/6 wounds and get a 4+ rerollable against it, Im willing to do it. The only remaining bad thing is no grenades means the council goes second.

-Generally they're used to soften targets to charge, however, not much survives a charge from the council regardless of softening or not softening. (With the exception of terminators, tons of marines, or other units with really good saves and a lot of wounds, however, destructors won't fix this either).

Jetbike Squads:

I tried them since fifth came out up until 2-3 weeks ago when I decided they just won't work.

They have mobile fire, yes, but their range is 12 inches (unless you want to limit yourself to bs 3 3 shot guns) and once caught in combat, they're goners. Not to mention you pay 22 points for a fast marine with a crappy stat line and ld 8.

It doesn't take much to shoot down a squad, and most shops and tournaments (everyone I've been to) have few if any pieces of true "LOS blocking" terrain. Because of this, you're always getting shot.

Also, you can't get a 3+ invulnerable with jetbikes, that was last edition, this edition you get a 3+ cover save for turboboosting (which cant be done over obstacles, models, cover, etc.) and won't help you if they get locked in combat (no cover saves in combat).

I love jetbikes, I own 30-40 of the buggers, but after tons of playtesting I just can't field them. My waveserpents + Dire avengers have given me much more bang for my buck I've found.

I do not see doom on any of your farseers.

Then read better. The first list for the 1850 both farseers have "doom" written in their list of upgrades

In 1750 I cant fit it.

I'm doing same army, as you know. I'm now considering x2 councils. Makes sense to double the threats. As one big council could get bogged down for many turns of combat.

Nice list. I might have to try this out on Vassal after finals.

I been testing a one council list with 3 fire prisms a little bit but haven't had much time to test it.

Try and fit in 2 destructors into the council that would rock for burninating units in cover.

Jetbikes can get cannon upgrade. Pop around terrain and shoot with 24" weapon.

You are running Avengers without Exarch? That can't be good. No bladestorm or defender.

You and I both are seeing it's tough to make army when 2 HQ's suck up so many points.

Wave Serpents are not that resilient versus shooting or assaults... Seems like you are putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Why not drop one seer council so you can take some other units to make your army more versatile?

G

Do the 'locks get a str 9 vs vehicles? (i dont play with eldar but have plaed against this very army quite a bit) If not then mech armies will be very hard. You are relying far too much on the wave serpents not dying (which wont happen a lot). They are both your transports and LR anti-tank.


Orks ( which there seem to be a lot) would maybe kill it in both the horde and nob biker varieties... Unless you are extremely lucky with your bladestorm... remember, nob bikers essentially get 4/4 to shooting just like you. Also, any self respecting orky will charge claws into b2b with your seer and insta pop him.

To be honest, I think dual queer councils is overkill and too many points to take on all-comers. Try playing a marine army with a librarian, or even the special libby that makes you re-reoll invuln AND has a psychic hood or even an anti-psychic nid army

I dont usually play at this range (1500 in UKGT) so it may be a little off.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Jetbikes can get cannon upgrade. Pop around terrain and shoot with 24" weapon.

You are running Avengers without Exarch? That can't be good. No bladestorm or defender.

You and I both are seeing it's tough to make army when 2 HQ's suck up so many points.

-Jetbikes do get the cannon upgrade, which on average will cause 1 wound that won't instakill and won't ignore saves. If you use them like this, you're paying for 76-200 points to have 1-3 wounds per turn at 24 inches. Its a horrible points sink.
-Jetbikes can "pop around cover", but not as they did in fourth edition. In this edition, you'll "pop around cover" and then pop back. And then your opponent will simply shoot you through said cover since it doesnt block LOS anymore. Pop attacks do. not. work.

-Avengers are better without an exarch and the powers.

Here's why:
My build: 120 points, I get 10 scoring troops, and 20 BS4 shots per turn, a 4+ save, and LD 9
Your build: 167 Points, You get 10 scoring troops, 20 BS4 shots per turn or 32 shots (exarch with avenger cats') if you sacrifice 20 shots in the coming shooting phase, a 4+ save, and LD 9. Enemies lose 1 attack when charging.

So you've increasing the units cost by almost 40% and in return you get the option to fire 32 shots instead of 20 and then shoot 0 the next turn. You also get your enemies to have 1 less attack in the coming close combat phase, however Dire avengers are weak enough that they will NEVER win an assault regardless of the upgrades you buy, unless you're fighting guardsmen or tau, and in that case, you don't need defend to win anyhow. If you're in combat, you've already lost, regardless.

I'm not really having trouble with this army to be honest, the HQ's suck up points, but I made that choice based on their utility. I've tested this versus ork horde and ork dred bash (9 kil kans, ghazzie, 120 ork shoota boyz, snikrot and 14 kommandos, KFF mek, 20 storm boyz) and done just fine. I've also tested and beat the Nidzilla build (both gaunt horde with 5 dakka fexes and 2 dakka tyrants with guard, and swapping gaunt horde for scutting stealers).

I've yet to test on the CSM Oblit/Lash/PM build, but will be in the coming weeks.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Wave Serpents are not that resilient versus shooting or assaults... Seems like you are putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Why not drop one seer council so you can take some other units to make your army more versatile?

G

Wave serpents are semi resilient vs shooting and assaults, but yes, not that resilient. To take a look at your post though, you have 4 rhinos at AV 11 getting hit by str 9 lascannons. My serpents only take Str 8 hits from lascannons and are AV 12, this is just to give you a relateable comparison to your own experience vs lascannons.

Wave serpents when I play typically hang back lurking and moving 12 inches (hopefully trying to utilize cover for 4+ saves, but that doesn't always work). They fire the BL from this range and wait until later game (or when needed) to move up and capture objectives/fire on targets to minimize what they take back. Being able to move 24 inches makes me able to move away from assaults (I will never get assaulted since I have a 24 inch move unless I let myself due to needing to deploy them or charge block with them).

If I'm playing an army with a lot of shooting, I keep them in reserve and let the councils go to town, they can't survive (at least I don't think they will) 9 obliterators for more than 2 turns.

As far as dropping the council, I've played a single council build for a while as well and just found it ineffective. My opponent had too easy of a time throwing bait units and tar pit units into them (or forcing me to charge them) and then I had a council chewing on the wrong unit all game. The second council lets me have two points of threat (you won't find most people have more than 1-2 throw away units) with 2 councils, even if he can force them into my way, I can get through them in 1-2 turns and be into the squishy bits of his army.

Also, if I get tarpitted I can use the second council to go around and complete what I needed to complete and/or save the first council by adding in more attacks (24 WS5, I5, 2+ to wound).

WingWong wrote:Do the 'locks get a str 9 vs vehicles? (i dont play with eldar but have plaed against this very army quite a bit) If not then mech armies will be very hard. You are relying far too much on the wave serpents not dying (which wont happen a lot). They are both your transports and LR anti-tank.


Orks ( which there seem to be a lot) would maybe kill it in both the horde and nob biker varieties... Unless you are extremely lucky with your bladestorm... remember, nob bikers essentially get 4/4 to shooting just like you. Also, any self respecting orky will charge claws into b2b with your seer and insta pop him.

To be honest, I think dual queer councils is overkill and too many points to take on all-comers. Try playing a marine army with a librarian, or even the special libby that makes you re-reoll invuln AND has a psychic hood or even an anti-psychic nid army

I dont usually play at this range (1500 in UKGT) so it may be a little off.

Warlocks and farseers have base 2 attacks (1, plus 1 for 2 CCW's) and they always wound on a 2+ versus models with a toughness, and against targets with an armor value they are indeed, str 9. On the charge I hit vehicles with 24 str 9 attacks on rear armor. Its enough to shred any monolith or land raider on the charge, not to mention softer vehicles.

Waveserpents are given brightlances to pick at hard targets and provide a use for themselves while they lurk protecting my scorers.

Orks are an issue for everyone, but so far I've been winning versus dredbash/horde orks, however I've yet to find someone who can play the nob biker build, but am looking into getting a friend to proxy it.

Seer councils get a 3+/3+ to shooting keep in mind, unless its a weapon that ignores saves (lascannons, etc) in that case we get 4+/4+. Theres a big difference between those though, its the difference of 1/9 dying and 1/4 dying. And although nobs get this, keep in mind brightlances ignore the FNP and instakill, so they'll only get 4+ cover saves before (hopefully) biting it.

In charges the farseer stays out of BTB, if he gets into BTB it is trouble (powerfists, etc) however he does still get a 4+/4+, so he isnt too too easy to squish. But yea, that is an issue.

Keep in mind nob bikers in combat though will only get a 6+ save typically (not many folks put eavy armor or cybork on them) and then a 4+ FNP, whereas I get the 3+ reroll or 4+ reroll, making me far more resilient.


My testing has led me into dual seer council and I've not yet turned back, I've busted through BT armies, guard armies, and most of the top lists so far without too much problem, and it works well as a take all comer I'm finding.

However, for every omfgzorzunstoppabledestruction army, there's a counter as you noted. Hoods are my worst nightmare, the new marine hood is relatively easy to avoid at least in order to keep my fortune for the turn I charge in, after that there is a 50% chance I lose fortune, and things just go ugly. The new marine reroll passed invulnerable saves is a bit odd, and I'm not sure how it works, however in order to cast it he'll probably take a perils of the warp due to my runes of warding (roll on 3d6 and add them all together for the test).

Think of the SM power:

Fortune: You may reroll any failed saves
Null Zone: Any successful invulnerable saves within 24 inches during the SM players turn must be rerolled.
Rulebook: You may never reroll a reroll.

IMO, if fortune is up, null zone won't work as you can't ever reroll a reroll. Either that or I would take saves, reroll the passes, then take all of the fails and reroll those with fortune (ie, save, null zone, fortune).

Even so, Null zone only works during the SM players turn, reducing its effectiveness a bit (although its still gross). You can bet in this scenario I'll be tossing everything into that librarian ASAP.

-- 16 council members charge a librarian and 10 marines --

48 attacks, 32 hits, 26 wounds (rounding down), 8-9 dead marines, or since he's an IC, at least ONE dead librarian, who cares about the rest of the marines. Even one council should be able to do enough to kill the librarian (forcing ~10-13 saves on him).


Thanks for the great comments/critiques folks, I aprecciate feedback on the list (naysayers and supporters, mostly naysayers it seems ) as I rarely get this much feedback on DakkaDakka anymore (now that the infamous stelek is absent, which btw, where is he?)

2 things...

Mr. Eldar... First guide the shuriken cannons on the jetbikes. : )

"Wave serpents are semi resilient vs shooting and assaults, but yes, not that resilient. To take a look at your post though, you have 4 rhinos at AV 11 getting hit by str 9 lascannons. My serpents only take Str 8 hits from lascannons and are AV 12, this is just to give you a relateable comparison to your own experience vs lascannons. "

My rhinos serve two purposes ->

- Create bunkers after they are wrecked... opponent must roll a 6 to take it off the table... if you have enough rhinos you can establish a good shield wall

- Reach the objectives... remember I have OCE for BA which is a big advantage

G

Against non-fleeting opponents I think going without the exarch is fine. You will have round 2 to fire. If your opponent can move and charge for a total of 18"...fleeters, jump infantry, beasts, cavalry... then you need the exarch.

I guess it's just a question of who you think you'll be facing.

ender502

Green Blow Fly wrote:2 things...

Mr. Eldar... First guide the shuriken cannons on the jetbikes. : )

G

Guiding will roughly double your hits, and will cost you 45 extra points on your farseer, and for you to keep a non combat scoring squad within 6 inches of a front line combat squad in order to have range for guide (guide is within 6 inches).

And still, you'll go from 1-3 to 2-6 wounds depending on 3 jetbikes with 1 cannon to 9 jetbikes with 3

And then keep in mind, you're using a 180 point or more farseer to achieve 1-3 more wounds that don't ignore saves or instakill.

Bad deal in my book.

Did I forget to mention Doom? It's great for those annoying pests in power armor.



G

The only issue with doom is that it means your farseer has to spend an extra 45-50 points (keep in mind, an extra power means purchasing stones and the power)

Doom does have great synergy with the dire avengers, however at 1750 I just can't fit it or justify it as as important as the other choices within the list. MY 1850 build incudes doom/stones for both seers as the 100 point boost.

Doom is really (imo) the best second power in the book just given its range and the fact that since it isn't a shooting power and doesn't require LOS you can keep your opponent guessing and force him to make hard choices about what that unit he just was about to charge in with, that is now doomed, is going to do. Also, it doesn't tie up your farseer squad at all in having to stay close to your squads to cast it on (ala guide) or to cast it on the same target he charges (eldritch storm, mind war).

However, mind war is a good second choice for sniping out models that are going to provide issues in combat. Painboy nob biker anyone? LD 7 versus LD 10 means you'll usually kill him if you mind war him.


Edit: BTW, I just now realized what OCE stands for, is that an extra d6? Pretty nice for blood angels. The best build I can see for blood angels, imo, is a gun heavy (long range, hard hitting weapons) with a free awesome DC as a bonus.

Vanilla Space Marines is a much better codex to build a power armor gun line.

G

PS(If you drop the second council you will have the points needed)

Well yea, if I drop a 600 point unit I'll have the points for a 45 point upgrade, but then I lose all the benefits discussed above of having two councils instead of one.

Don't think having doom on one guy is worth losing an entire council

Think outside the box grass hopper.

G

I like it. I run something very similar. Some thoughts:

I know people like the twin linked bright lances on waveserpents, but I really never kill much with them. On average is takes something like 10-12 shot to statistically kill one landraider.

I honestly never have the chance to take nearly that many shots. I'm usually using the wave serpents at transports and keeping my speed over 12". Other wise I'm moving less and usually shooting through terrain.

Also, I generally don't buy multiple enhances for my warlock jetbike squads. Ultimately, I'm trying to keep them out of hth. They live longer if you do. I use them to harass and whittle down units.

They are not hammer units. you shoot with them at 12" then bounce back to 18". With that in mind I usually run a farseer with mind war.

I also toss in some spears, especially on the farseer. His single attack will not be missed, but a hitting on a 2+ S9 weapon is great.

If you want to put them in hth why would you not just run a foot based squad in a waveserpent with Eldrad? They are cheaper, harder hitting, and more resilient.

Anyway, I say strip the brightlances, lose the extra enhance, change a doom for a mind war, add singing spears to the farseers and knock your dire avengers down a couple guys.

And field a big squad of fire dragons in a waveserpent.

Also I would consider only one jetbike based council, toss the second council in a waveserpent.

They really have 2 very different rolls. you will find the jetbike squad is great for harrassing and contesting a late game objective, while the foot base used is solid in hth and is a great place to put a bunch of destructors.

Pete

Green Blow Fly:

Dropping an entire unit that makes the army different than your standard single council list just so doom appears in the army isn't thinking outside the box

Pete:


Jetbike councils are most certainly not for harassing enemy units. No one should be spending 500+ points for a unit just designed to "harass". If my opponent "harassed" me with a 500 point monster of a unit wasting it on shooting 8 TL shuriken catapults every turn or chucking single shot spears, I'd be the happiest camper ever.

How is 24 WS 5 I5 2+ to wound attacks not a hammer?

Jetbike councils are the place to put destructors, as they can move fast and bring them to bear. Destructors are horrible in foot squads, unless you plan on dumping them as a flamer squad out of a transport, in this case, just take a min unit of storm guardians with 2 flamers and a destructor warlock

Multiple enhances are necessary for the new wound allocation rules, providing you care to keep enhance up.


The foot based squad:

1) Sucks up both HQ's
2) Costs more (210 for eldrad, 155 for yriel, 250 for 10 warlocks, 50 ish for powers (without destructor) and 145 for a serpent is: 810 points) You get one unit for almost the price of my two which are faster, have better toughness, better basic guns, get a 3+ save. In fact the only bonus to the foot squad is that you get power attacks from yriel.
3) Eldrad can't fleet so he slows the unit down tremendously
4) Easy to just tie it up and move away form it, letting it waste time hoofing it or waste time remounting and redeploying
5) Has T3, not 4, and has no 3+ save. Things like psycannons eat these for breakfast.

If you run one jetbike council and one waveserpent council, you end up losing the entire advantage of the serpent council, which is to include power attacks through yriel or a phoenix lord.

Brightlances im not totally sold on, but they're there mostly so that if I face a tank, Im not required to charge in my council in order to take it out.

Fire dragons are a free KP, expensive, and aren't scoring. Eldar need to build their AT into their other units, as paying for a fire dragon suicide squad (it always ends up being one and you know it) is roughly 250 with transport, is 2 free kp, and doesn't score.

The first step is the hardest of any journey.

G

I'm always swapping Bladestorm on and off... I think it's definitely worth having on one unit, at least. For the Storm/Embark/Storm tactic... well, obviously that's how it works. But if they DON'T need to re-embark, they can always NOT bladestorm, and do it the following turn, before jetting off after an objective.

I thought about using Defend at a recent local tournament, but I'm glad I didn't. Only got the into combat once, and that was me charging Guardsmen with two DA squads and a Farseer.

I'm yet to properly test Jetcouncil... need to finish conversions...

Green Blow Fly wrote:The first step is the hardest of any journey.

G

Say something useful or don't clutter the thread.

Artik:

Im just not sold on bladestorm, I used to swear by it, then I tried it on a single unit, and my opponent just always downed them first when able, so it never had much effect besides spending more of my points.

Jetcouncil is fun to play, but the conversions are a bit...time consuming, GL with yours, Im almost done with mine, did you hack your riders in half or do something different?

I am trying to help you to open your mind to new possibilities with the eldar.

G

played this VS a CC heavy Black templar list with 3 or so big 20 man squads and grim or a chaplin w/ those servitors that make them run further(or 2 chaps)???

basicaly, 18 models at 2 attacks each, a 1 attack melta gun, and a powerfist.... + shots on the way in. if you slam into one squad, it is very likely that another will slam into you in the next turn.

i think you would struggle vs a horde BT list.

You played my exact list or just a dual council more or less against a BT army?

My biggest struggle so far was against a horde BT list actually, as preferred enemy is just disgusting IMO

My semi solution was just to whittle them down before I charge (easier said than done) with lots of DA fire just causing as many wounds as possible before combat was necessary.

But yea, horde CC armies that rock 3+ saves are pretty painful for my army with the lack of power weapons, but through sheer weight of wounds can win.

I've run both types in a ton of games and tourneys. I usually one of 3 types of councils.

- Farseer, fortune, runes of witness, 5 warlocks with destructors in a falcon, stones, holofield (sometimes I take doom and stones)

- Eldrad, Yriel, 8 warlocks, 2 enhance, 2 embolden in a waveserpent

- Farseer fortune, wind war, stones, runes of warding, spear, 5 or 6 warlocks on bikes, 2 embolden, 1 enhance, 2 or 3 spears

So I hear you that 4 WS 5 I5 2+ to wound attacks shoudl be a hammer unit, but farseers die in hth unless they are Eldrad. So you really can;t last more than maybe 2 full turns of combat if the squad has a powerfist. The seer will get swatted, and the unit explodes. It's just not a win scenerio against a lot of much cheaper units.

This doesn't mean it's a bad unit. They are a big chunk of points that only gives up a single KP, and can contest and objective you want to a couple turns. It's a spoiler unit. You use it to whittle away the enemy all game long, and then zoom to an objective in the end game. This is hugely valuable for eldar.

- The Yriel / Eldrad version is the hth option that rolls units in hth.

- The small unit is a flamer bomb. It's cheap and amazingly versatile. 5 re rolling to wound heavy flamers will basically erase 30 orks or 10 marines of your choice, and they are resilient enough to do it multiple times. I've begun to like this unit the best, as it solves problems like stern guard, or mobs in terrain, and can still tar pit until the farseer dies.

Pete