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This list is for giving me the best chances possible to win with Guard.

Doctrines:
Drop Troops
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill
Veterans
Sharpshooters

Headquarters

HQ Platoon
JO: LP/CCW, Honorifica, Macharian Cross
3 Guardsmen: Flamers
Veteran: LP/CCW, Standard

Elites

5 Veterans, 3 meltaguns

5 Veterans, 3 meltaguns

Troops

Platoon A (Las/Plas firebase)

Platoon HQ A
JO: LP/CCW
4 Guardsmen: Plasma Guns

Squad Ax3
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
Sargeant w/ Lasgun

Platoon B (more mobile objective grabby anti-hordy platoon)

Platoon HQ B
JO: LP/CCW
4 Guardsmen: Flamers

Squad Bx4
Flamer
Sargeant w/ Shotgun
Frag Grenades

Fast Attack

Hellhound, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Hellhound, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Hellhound, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher: Hull Heavy Bolter, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

Leman Russ Demolisher: Hull Heavy Bolter, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

Leman Russ Battle Tank: Hull Heavy Bolter, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

Summary: 11 Flamers, 6 Meltaguns, 4 Plasma Guns, 4 Flamers, 3 Lascannons, 3 Heavy Bolters, 3 Inferno Cannons, 2 Demolisher Cannons, 1 Battle Cannon

So, the deepstriking elements are obviously the PHQs and the Veterans. Veterans deal with nasty armor, PHQs deal with heavy infantry and light hordes on fire. My infantry is split into a static firebase which will defend my objectives (supported by the LRBT) and a more mobile element which will advance forward supported by the Demolishers. The mobile element will overwhelm the nearest objective held by the enemy on turn 4 or 5.

Little bit overboard on the anti-tank, don't'cha think? While, yes, 14 Lascannons will do some damage, how does this army work against Orks? How does this army work against an entrenched foe in cover?

You need multiple wounds to get them to make multiple saves. Can't do that with single-shot Lascannons.

This is a 4th Ed list. It will work in 4th Ed.

BYE

Well, I chuckled when I saw "Guard" and "competitive" in the same scentence, on to the review.

This is definitly a 4th ed list, with all the cover and orks running around you will want a volume of shots over low ap. First off, kill the mortars. Change your command squad to lasguns and just lead your men. Its not even a possibility for them to do anything in CC without some serious pointsinking. really. Second, change one of the platoons to a horde hunting one. Use autocannons/heavy bolter and flamers. you could actually do that with both platoons seeing how you have 6 lascannons and 3 tanks to pop armor. No doubt this list will WREAK a silly marine player, but if you are going up against a ork in a KP mission, save yourself the trouble and don't play(not saying YOUR list is bad on KP, just guard in general is.)
Not a bad list in all (vets and tanks=great) but you would need more shots against a horde.

Here's an idea I've been floating around: frag grenades for the mobile elements. Why you ask? With COD being automatic on the charge your initiative on the charge will be 4 which means you strike simultaneously with Marines in cover.

10 Guardsmen: 8 Lasguns, Sargeant w/ Shotgun, Flamer, all with Frag Grenades = 76pts

The squad will get this on the charge:

Lasguns = can't shoot, can't rapid fire and charge
Lasgun bayonets = 16 Str 3 attacks
Shotgun buckshot = 2 Str 3 AP - shots
Shotgun melee swing = 2 Str 3 attacks
Flamer = 3-4 Str 4 AP 5 hits

Total: 20 Str 3 AP - shots/attacks, 3-4 Str 4 AP 5 Hits

Now this sounds like a good list. I dont like the Idea of Guard in CC, but it would work occasioaly. The grenade idea is ok, you would have to try it. Also, I would like to remind you how well cameoline works, throw it on your camping las/plas squads and drop sharpshooters, but thats just an idea. I think your list sounds good now anyway.

Using "competitive" and "guard" in the same sentence really only happens if I see three hellhounds and the russ/demolishers as a start. You've got one...

who cares about competitive
fun fun fun is the way to go
and what about rokits can't you take them don't they fill
both positive w/ krak and frag??

I'd drop the HWS Lascannon teams for Hellhounds.

the list isn't bad but your idea of Assaulting marines is just silly for a few reason.

Your wasting points on giving your basic squads any CC ability put the grenades away save the points.

By assaulting a Marine unit or similar CC unit you will lose combat, your gaurd thats a given unless your charging with Ogrins So you lose this combat by a bunch of wounds and thus run away. So now the Enamy has destroyed one of your units in YOUR turn and is then free to engage another squad in his following turn. The best thing to do with gaurd is to Run that squad out in front of the marine unit at max coherentcy and encircle the assault unit htere for they won't e able to charge multiple units and even if they shoot the squad to death then they are again stuck unable to assault and will be left open to the full fire of the rest of your army.

tanith45 wrote:who cares about competitive
fun fun fun is the way to go
and what about rokits can't you take them don't they fill
both positive w/ krak and frag??

Since the list had "competitive" in the title, I assumed they wanted to make the hardest hitting IG force possible. That starts with 3 Lemans Russ and 3 Hellhounds. Guard are pretty screwed until the new codex comes out.

aleis wrote:By assaulting a Marine unit or similar CC unit you will lose combat, your gaurd thats a given unless your charging with Ogrins

I believe you meant "rough riders". Ogryns suck.

2nd list is great but,

If anything your two jo squads need upgrades badly. I would look at either taking the four plasma and or four flamers out of your platoons. Next place two of each of the weapon in your Jo units so that they can handle things if needed.

Movement has become such a huge factor that I would look at either dropping your AT/FS units and adding in something else. Yes a hellhound is a big upgrade as it allows you to move and fire.

I see a lot of smack that just needs to be deleted from this post. It would be nice if the person that posted this topic could oppt to just shrink the section so that other posters if they wanted to view could reopen it.

aleis wrote:the list isn't bad but your idea of Assaulting marines is just silly for a few reason.

Your wasting points on giving your basic squads any CC ability put the grenades away save the points.

By assaulting a Marine unit or similar CC unit you will lose combat, your gaurd thats a given unless your charging with Ogrins So you lose this combat by a bunch of wounds and thus run away. So now the Enamy has destroyed one of your units in YOUR turn and is then free to engage another squad in his following turn. The best thing to do with gaurd is to Run that squad out in front of the marine unit at max coherentcy and encircle the assault unit htere for they won't e able to charge multiple units and even if they shoot the squad to death then they are again stuck unable to assault and will be left open to the full fire of the rest of your army.

No, losing in combat is not a "given" and it's exactly this rigid thinking that leads to the same bland boring lists getting reposted over and over. In this game, especially when you're the one charging (+1A) weaker units can overwhelm stronger ones.

What do you propose I do to claim objectives then? Remember 5th ed is out. I've played static gunline armies and after 4 turns of blasting my opponents troops sitting on the objectives still live. That is why it was my idea to give one half of my guard mobile/objective taking abilities.

A 10-man squad armed the way on the charge won't lose against a 10-man tactical. While one squad might not do it alone, two or more guard squads armed this way should overhwelm the marines easily.

This is how a platoon would be armed.

10 Guardsmen: 8 Lasguns, Sargeant w/ Shotgun, Flamer, all with Frag Grenades = 76pts

Here is what they would get on the charge:

Lasgun bayonets = 16 Str 3 attacks
Shotgun buckshot = 2 Str 3 AP - shots
Shotgun melee swing = 2 Str 3 attacks
Flamer = 4 Str 4 AP 5 hits

Total: 20 Str 3 AP - shots/attacks, 4 Str 4 AP 5 Hits

Iniative 4, Leadership 8 on the charge (automatic close order drill)

2 Guard Squads (strike simultaneously)

Str3: 40 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2.2 UnSvW
Str4: 8 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 1.3 UnSvW

Total unsaved wounds: 3.5

10-Man Tactical Marine Squad (strikes simultaneously)

Str4: 11 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 3.26

Total unsaved wounds = 3.26

Edit: Oops, closer than I thought.

Nevertheless, here are some nice bonuses for charging the enemy and taking the objective. Namely that the cover and cover saves are now yours, and now you control the objective. Also, while in combat, you are immune to enemy return fire. Finally, with any vehicle with a back armor of 10 nearby that hasn't moved can be threatened by any of my squads equiped this way.

CowOnCrack wrote:
No, losing in combat is not a "given" and it's exactly this rigid thinking that leads to the same bland boring lists getting reposted over and over. In this game, especially when you're the one charging (+1A) weaker units can overwhelm stronger ones.

Huh? Let's say you somehow manage to set up a situation where you can charge 20 guardsmen into 10 marines.

20 guardsmen = 42 attacks. 21 hit, 7 wound, 2.33 failed saves.

10 Marines = 11 attacks, 7.33 hits, 4.89 wounds, 3.2 failed saves.

Guard lose by one. -1 to LD tests for both squads, so they're testing on 7s. They may not break...yet.

Your math is faulty. To get an edge, you need to charge at least 3 full squads...and getting 30 guardsmen into combat with 10 marines is quite a feat. Especially considering that all the Marines need to do is wait until your squads each get a model to within 12", then multicharge all three of them, and quite likely wipe them all off the board in a single turn.

While it is better to charge than be charged, in the Guard case, you're simply choosing who dies so that the others may shoot.

Centurian99 wrote:
Huh? Let's say you somehow manage to set up a situation where you can charge 20 guardsmen into 10 marines.

20 guardsmen = 42 attacks. 21 hit, 7 wound, 2.33 failed saves.

10 Marines = 11 attacks, 7.33 hits, 4.89 wounds, 3.2 failed saves.

Guard lose by one. -1 to LD tests for both squads, so they're testing on 7s. They may not break...yet.

Your math is faulty. To get an edge, you need to charge at least 3 full squads...and getting 30 guardsmen into combat with 10 marines is quite a feat. Especially considering that all the Marines need to do is wait until your squads each get a model to within 12", then multicharge all three of them, and quite likely wipe them all off the board in a single turn.

Well, don't forget the flamer hits. I'm averaging 8 hits with 2 flamer templates, assuming 4 per template. This may be overly generous. Also, I did indeed miscalculate the marines. In any case it means the combat is about even 20 versus 10, which doesn't look as good as before, but once again, there are added benefits for winning the combat not to mention the pesky reality that you need to claim objectives to win.

But I didn't consider the multicharge attack. That could be absolutely devastating to this strategy. Hopefully their objective is in difficult terrain and they roll badly.

Argh. It annoys me that for my army CC is simply NOT AN OPTION, EVERYTHING is SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT. This wasn't as big of a problem in 4th ed, now it's a huge one because of universal cover and objectives. They need to tweak the game a bit so every horde army can win CC in numbers, because with ridiculous cover for everyone shooting isn't enough to clear an objective and it doesn't bring you anywhere near close enough to control it.

I guess this strategy would have some success against some armies, mainly against the troops choices of other hordey GEQ armies. It would work against Eldar Defender Guardians provided there are no nearby I5 aspect warriors. It would work against TAU. It would work somewhat against Orks because I would strike first, but not so much Tyranids because their units are just better at combat for a cheaper price. It would fail against Dark Eldar because of their basic I5. It would work against another "average" T3 I3 army but there is really no such army in the game besides Guard despite the claim that T3 and I3 are average. If only the true "average" stats in the game weren't as good as Space Marines....

Guard truly have the worst troops in the game points for stats. I guess they do get guns though! Hooray, sit back and shoot all day.

Back to the drawing board I guess. Or as other players put it, screwed until April (or whenever the new Guard 'dex comes out.)

Edit: And yes, I know that Guard is supposed to be a shooty army so don't bother with (then why play Guard?) questions. It's not so much the Army but the game mechanic that I have a beef with. Their description of close combat in the BRB is perfect. "Whereas firepower may be enough to drive away opponents from open ground or lightly held positions, shifting a determined foe from ruins/cover requires sterner measures." If that is their vision for the game, then CC needs to be balanced for everyone. Obviously some armies will be better at it than others but numbers and tactics should matter more in the final evaluation, not army type or composition.