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What Ld does the nob use in a full squad?

G

Assuming you mean a 30 man mob, I think he would be a LD 10. While not covered directly by the Orky FAQ, it does say that a Weirdboyz LD can only go up to 10, so I would assume the same limit applies to the Nob.

Ehrm, why does the Wierdboy rule affect mindwar in any case? Just wondering here.

Mind war works vs the Nobz own LD not the mobz one as far as I know. I think it´s stated in the GW Q&A Section.
Correct me if I´m wrong.

hmm I'm not sure to be honest, the mob rule special rule specifically says "ork mobs" can substitute squad size for leadership, rather than "ork models" so when the nob is picked out I'm a bit vague on it, but I think he's probably still able to do the substitution to get LD 10.

Note: The core rule book says no stat other than Attacks can ever go above 10.

Drunkspleen wrote:hmm I'm not sure to be honest, the mob rule special rule specifically says "ork mobs" can substitute squad size for leadership, rather than "ork models" so when the nob is picked out I'm a bit vague on it, but I think he's probably still able to do the substitution to get LD 10.

Note: The core rule book says no stat other than Attacks can ever go above 10.

Rofl, would be awesome to get LD 30 with full Slugga Mob

Oh and didnt found that on the GWs Q&A so I might be wrong on that. Maybe we have another discussion here in the YMDC sub where I read about it.

The nob can choose to use the number of models as Ld with a cap of 10. This is as per the Mob Rule!

The weirdboy is an example that shows an individual model can use the Mob Rule! leadership benefit. It does not only apply when rolling for the mob as a whole.

What utan said, spot on.

The mob rule stats that the orks in the mob may substitute their own LD for the number of models in the mob up to 10.

Mind war uses the models leadership (which may be substituted due to the mob rule).

The weirdboy is a great example on how a single model benefits from the mob rule.

Note: Mob rule is a straight substitution of LD stat, not just a bonus or special rule used for morale/pinning. So this works against anything that uses LD (i.e. calidus's little flame thing she does).

padixon wrote:What utan said, spot on.

The mob rule stats that the orks in the mob may substitute their own LD for the number of models in the mob up to 10.

Mind war uses the models leadership (which may be substituted due to the mob rule).

The weirdboy is a great example on how a single model benefits from the mob rule.

Note: Mob rule is a straight substitution of LD stat, not just a bonus or special rule used for morale/pinning. So this works against anything that uses LD (i.e. calidus's little flame thing she does).

Aye, thanks for clarify that. Now I get what the Wierdboy example was/is for.

Could someone please post the applicable quote from the Ork dex?

Tanks,
ender502

Here's the entire rule, typed, verbatim from the codex.

"Mob rule!

Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule"

Page 31.

Mind war targets a specific model and instructs the players to roll a d6, adding the models leadership characteristic.

You can't just change "ork mobss" to ork models because you want to.

The reason for the weird boys leadership increase is because he is taking an actual leadership test to use his powers. Mind war is not a leadership test.

The rulebook states models using the highest Ld in a unit.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The rulebook states models using the highest Ld in a unit.

G

Yeah thats right, but Codex/Kodex rules > Rulebook or am I wrong on this?

I believe everyone here says that codex > rulebook.

G

(Germany... nice!)

Green Blow Fly wrote:I believe everyone here says that codex > rulebook.

G

(Germany... nice!)

Well, and the highest LD in the unit is 10 because of the Mobrule eh? Just trying to figure out if I can "butt fork" Eldar even more or not.
By the way, that reminds me Chars like my beloved Grotsnik are imune to the damn Mind War thingy because he´s fearless eh?
Never had the situation but if he allways pass his LD tests there´s no way or wait no, Mind War = Codex Rule and Fearless = Rulebook Rule. So does that mean Chars like Grotsnik wont pass their Mind War related LD tests automatically eh? Sheesh, I really need to kick some gretchinz. No need to think how to kick them best, just kick them.

And yes, german here.

P 37, Codex:Orks:
Weirdboys must make a Psychic test before determining the power they use. If the test is failed, do not roll to determine which power he uses. Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by Mob Rule (see page 31).

From the holistic context of the codex, it is clear that the Mob Rule is intended to affect individual model's Leadership.

I don't think fearless has anything to do as far as negating mind war.

G

No, but conferring leadership 10 to the model does. Mob rule replaces the leadership value for everyone in the mob with the rule. This would include nobs.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The rulebook states models using the highest Ld in a unit.

G

Edited to try and be nice and not get the mess started again.

You did this exact post in my thread, and I already quashed this BS statement of yours, now you post it elsewhere. Quote from my thread below for posterity.

targetawg wrote:You're misreading the rule book I'm afraid, here's the quote from the rulebook:

Pg. 8, Big 5th edition book, under the heading:

"Leadership Tests:

Tests made against the leadership characteristic (like morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a leadership test, roll 2d6. If the result is equal to or less than the model's leadership, the test is passed.

If a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the highest ld value"

What you're thinking of is that for leadership tests models use the highest in their unit.

Mind war isn't a leadership test. It just uses their leadership value to add to the roll of a D6. The above quote only applies, as the heading says, to leadership tests.

And the reason mind war isnt affected by leadership is that MIND WAR IS NOT A LEADERSHIP TEST.

And Traskel, you can't just guess at the intent, the mob rule does not say it replaces the models leadership value, it says the MOB uses the leadership value, not the individual.

utan wrote:P 37, Codex:Orks:
Weirdboys must make a Psychic test before determining the power they use. If the test is failed, do not roll to determine which power he uses. Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by Mob Rule (see page 31).

From the holistic context of the codex, it is clear that the Mob Rule is intended to affect individual model's Leadership.

1) Intent doesn't matter for RAW rulings.

2) I'd argue the opposite, the fact they took the time to point out that in the weirdboys case you DO use the mob rule for his leadership would imply that this is an exception.

targetwag I hate to tell you this but I think you are in the minority here on this particular one.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:targetwag I hate to tell you this but I think you are in the minority here on this particular one.

G

And i hate to tell you this but being in the minority doesn't make you wrong, because I'm the only one to actually quote the rules. This has been ruled this way at every tournament I've been to, which although not official, gives you a good consensus of it.

Also, thanks for once again continuing your trend of not contributing to threads and just making remarks that are off topic.

Thanks to Targetawg for posting the quotes....

targetawg wrote:Here's the entire rule, typed, verbatim from the codex.

"Mob rule!

Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule"

The rule as quoted mentions psychology and morale.... You take morale tests for many reasons...casualties, losing a combat and tank shock. Though the leadership stat is central to a morale check...a morale check is NOT a leadership check. In fact, leadership checks are not mentioned in the morale section. The mob rule clearly refers to how a mobz leadership score (not the models...the mobz) is effected in terms of morale checks.

targetawg wrote:
Page 31.

Mind war targets a specific model and instructs the players to roll a d6, adding the models leadership characteristic.

You can't just change "ork mobss" to ork models because you want to.

The reason for the weird boys leadership increase is because he is taking an actual leadership test to use his powers. Mind war is not a leadership test.

Targetawg is exactly correct. Mindwar is individual and not versus a mob/unit.

utan wrote:P 37, Codex:Orks:
Weirdboys must make a Psychic test before determining the power they use. If the test is failed, do not roll to determine which power he uses. Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by Mob Rule (see page 31).

This has to do with a weirdboy using a psychic power. The weirdnboy must pass a "psychic test" not a "leadership test" nor a "morale test." It is in no way relevant to how mindwar works.

utan wrote:
From the holistic context of the codex, it is clear that the Mob Rule is intended to affect individual model's Leadership.

Codex are permissive and not holistic. Even if we are to assume a holistic approach then you would still be incorrect. A more specific rule (weird boy) is always an excpetion to a more general rule (mobz rule). The holistic approach would not be to allow a more specific rule to be applied to a greater number. Quite the opposite in fact.

The rules for mindwar ar equite simple. You use the models leadership stat. Why? Becaus ethat's what it says to do... Thi si snot a morale, psychic or leadership test. Th erules for all of those are irrelevant as applied to the mind war situation.

ender502

The fact that the wording says, "Remember that the Leaderships is affected..." without previously stating any sort of special exception for Weirdboyz shows that it is a reminder that the a model's Ld is enhanced by the Mob Rule on p. 31.

The Mind War uses the Target's Ld score which is replaced by the number of Boyz in the mob. That is, the target's Ld which is boosted by the Psychic Waaagh energy. Any even more logical reason why the nob would be more resistant to the Mind War when in a mob than when alone.

And RAW is dead my friends. The final nail in that coffin is the new stance by GW on their FAQs (q.v.).

Ok, so I felt right the first way without knowing it or better not know how to argue it the right - for me bad - way.
Well, doesnt matter that much, those Eldar Punies still get stomped

edit: Waaagh! Utan, why you´ve posted during I´ve written my one?
Now I´m completely confused. Time to get my nose deep into the rulebook. Too good MindWar wont affect me too often.

RAW can't be killed. GW's stance doesn't hold at tournies.

If it says it for the weirdboy, then it would say it for the other models if it wanted it.

You can't base rules on inferences and assumptions, thats not how rules work

Look, lets get off the subject of morale tests, weirdboys and such and look at the rule in question

"Mob rule!

Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule"

Note: it says, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.

That means it literally substitutes the normal ork LD "VALUE" for a new LD "VALUE".

That means it replaces what it says right there on paper.

Note also there is no mention *at all* of leadership tests, morale tests or any other such wording so far used by the nay-sayers.

It physically says both psychology and morale. This covers pretty much anything that has anything to do with their *new* LD value

example

Stat of ork Nob LD 7

New Stat of ork Nob in a mob at 10 or over LD 10

you use the new LD *value* as stated in the rule.

utan wrote:The fact that the wording says, "Remember that the Leaderships is affected..." without previously stating any sort of special exception for Weirdboyz shows that it is a reminder that the a model's Ld is enhanced by the Mob Rule on p. 31.

Ofcourse his leadership is effected...for making a psychic test. Mind war does not involve a psychic test. You can't port over a rule just because it suits your fancy.

utan wrote:The Mind War uses the Target's Ld score which is replaced by the number of Boyz in the mob. That is, the target's Ld which is boosted by the Psychic Waaagh energy. Any even more logical reason why the nob would be more resistant to the Mind War when in a mob than when alone.

The mobz rule applies to morale checks. In the case of a morale check you would be correct. This is not a morale check. You are not correct.

ender502

ender502 wrote:

utan wrote:The fact that the wording says, "Remember that the Leaderships is affected..." without previously stating any sort of special exception for Weirdboyz shows that it is a reminder that the a model's Ld is enhanced by the Mob Rule on p. 31.

Ofcourse his leadership is effected...for making a psychic test. Mind war does not involve a psychic test. You can't port over a rule just because it suits your fancy.

utan wrote:The Mind War uses the Target's Ld score which is replaced by the number of Boyz in the mob. That is, the target's Ld which is boosted by the Psychic Waaagh energy. Any even more logical reason why the nob would be more resistant to the Mind War when in a mob than when alone.

The mobz rule applies to morale checks. In the case of a morale check you would be correct. This is not a morale check. You are not correct.

ender502

It doesn't just apply to morale checks, re-read the rule, it literally says it replaces the LD value for a different one, Just like any other stat that would be replaced with another value (Terminator honors, PF, Fabius bile, etc..)

targetawg wrote:And the reason mind war isnt affected by leadership is that MIND WAR IS NOT A LEADERSHIP TEST.

Using big letters doesn't change the fact that Mob Rule doesn't even mention Leadership Tests, and that it replaces the base leadership for the mob, which is what is used for Mind War.

Traskel wrote:
Using big letters doesn't change the fact that Mob Rule doesn't even mention Leadership Tests,

yes

Traskel wrote:
and that it replaces the base leadership for the mob,

yes

Traskel wrote:
which is what is used for Mind War.

No, what is used for mind war is the leadership stat of the model...not the mob.

The question is whether or not Mob rule applies to anything outside of the weirdboy psychic and mob morale test/checks. I have yet to find a rule that says the mob rule efects anythoing outside of these two scenarios.

Remeber that we can't expand the rule at a whim. Mob rule is pretty clear about what it covers..morale checks by mobs and the psychic check by the weirdboy. That's it.

Oh and just for retentiveness' sake... i am using check and test interchangeably

ender502