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ender502 wrote:Middle-

I think you make some good points..but I know you are missing mine.

First, let me state where I think we agree....because of the mob rule the ork can "always" replace his leadership with the # or orks in the mob.

Second, where we disgree.... that mob rule is applied to any test other than "morale checks."

A restatement... It is suggested to me by the text of the mob rules where it states "Ork psychology and morale is directly linked..." that mob rule applies to morale checks....

I do not think that mob rule applies to anything else.... Why? because I always try to take the least expansive view of the rules.

ender502

But the rule says you´re allowed to use the Mobz LD anytime you want. That means, to me, more or less in any situation.
The more Orkz the better flows the Waaagh! Energy ---> Zogwart and MobRule and the tougher it is to break those Boyz ---> hth outcome, mind war, incoming fire, and so on.
That´s how I understand it after re-reading/re-thinking the damn rules until I was able spell them backwards.
Plus this thread has some really good arguements of both sides. It´s a good reading for sure and helps a lot to get it "right".

ender502 wrote:Middle-

A restatement... It is suggested to me by the text of the mob rules where it states "Ork psychology and morale is directly linked..." that mob rule applies to morale checks....

I do not think that mob rule applies to anything else.... Why? because I always try to take the least expansive view of the rules.

ender502

Ummm...

Are you saying that because the word 'morale' is used in the first sentence, then that means it is only linked to morale checks?

You know I can find you 3 separate places in the new SM codex where it states that the honor squads and command squads are indeed referred to as retinues. Yet they are not.

My point is sometimes, GW uses the English/German definition of certain words instead of the GW rule definition of the same word. Both the SM codex and this instance are great examples.

mo⋅rale /məˈræl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [muh-ral] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
emotional or mental condition with respect to cheerfulness, confidence, zeal, etc., esp. in the face of opposition, hardship, etc.: the morale of the troops.

There are SEVERAL others if you care to look.

The writer of this passage is literally using the word 'morale' as defined by the English dictionary and not to the rule about morale checks (and to prove my point there is no word "check", "test", or "role" anywhere in that rule. Just the word morale in context with the word psychology). Simply referring to the orks state of mind.

Ender-

The start of the Mob Rule! made me have a think too, as it does refer to psychology and morale. I don't want to discount it completely as fluff or an explanation of why the rule is working as it does, but I feel sometimes gw puts in a little too much flavour text for their own good. If you look at the next line ( I love the mention of Zog btw in case you haven't noticed yet ) This is also a line of text within the mob rule, but it has no actual bearing on the rule or the unit in game. Zog makes no difference to the rule.

To make it a lot simpler it could just say
"Mob Rule!
Ork mobs may always choose to substitute ..."

If we take the flavour text into the actual rule that affects our models on the board, then to use the Waaagh! rule our plastic Orks would have to shout waaagh at the top of their tiny plastic lungs to be able to use the rule as it is a part of the Waaagh! rule. Plastic models can't shout waaagh ( unless you convert one? how ace would that be ?) so we can see a difference in an actual rule, and some background explanation as to how the rule works.

So again I do not wish to discount the flavour text, but I feel that RAW in the mob rule, says that it replaces the ld value of the mob ( which the previous posts, i've presented how each model in the mob gains the ld 10 ). This ld value is then used to make a 2d6 ld test for morale checks / pinning, and can sometimes be used for other things, such as our pesky Mind War ld+d6.

I think the term 'leadership value' is a big part of my thinking on this.

The Ork has a leadership value of 10 so he rolls 10+d6.

I personally love the flavour text in rules, but sometimes it can get in the way of the actual letter of the rule it is describing. Without the flavour text the rules would be more compact and concise, but with them I am able to immerse myself in 40k and stomp some 'umies.

middle wrote:Ender-

The start of the Mob Rule! made me have a think too, as it does refer to psychology and morale. I don't want to discount it completely as fluff or an explanation of why the rule is working as it does, but I feel sometimes gw puts in a little too much flavour text for their own good. If you look at the next line ( I love the mention of Zog btw in case you haven't noticed yet ) This is also a line of text within the mob rule, but it has no actual bearing on the rule or the unit in game. Zog makes no difference to the rule.

To make it a lot simpler it could just say
"Mob Rule!
Ork mobs may always choose to substitute ..."

If we take the flavour text into the actual rule that affects our models on the board, then to use the Waaagh! rule our plastic Orks would have to shout waaagh at the top of their tiny plastic lungs to be able to use the rule as it is a part of the Waaagh! rule. Plastic models can't shout waaagh ( unless you convert one? how ace would that be ?) so we can see a difference in an actual rule, and some background explanation as to how the rule works.

So again I do not wish to discount the flavour text, but I feel that RAW in the mob rule, says that it replaces the ld value of the mob ( which the previous posts, i've presented how each model in the mob gains the ld 10 ). This ld value is then used to make a 2d6 ld test for morale checks / pinning, and can sometimes be used for other things, such as our pesky Mind War ld+d6.

I think the term 'leadership value' is a big part of my thinking on this.

The Ork has a leadership value of 10 so he rolls 10+d6.

I personally love the flavour text in rules, but sometimes it can get in the way of the actual letter of the rule it is describing. Without the flavour text the rules would be more compact and concise, but with them I am able to immerse myself in 40k and stomp some 'umies.

Heh...well that's some progress.... It actually makes me think of an even wierder question... is there a game diference between leadership stat and leadership value? I know there probably isn't but...just an odd thought. Iknow i'm not going to be the one that combs through the book and looks for the difference..if any.

I obviously read the mob rule as applying to morale and the "may always" as the ork version of "combat tactic" ...sometimes it's better to test low and run!!

I also agree the flavor sometimes confuses the issue. I am without my books ATM so I can only restate. So I am out of the debate for the moment. Though the whole question is moot considering the painboy gets the cover save versus mindwar ... or so says the eldar FAQ. Once I get hom i'll post again.

ender502

Not entirely moot, as if the painboy gets the LD AND the cover save, he will pretty much never go down to mind war

Ld 10 v Ld 7 - on average 3 wounds, 1.5 failed saves, dead painboy probably

Ld10 v Ld 10 - on average, 0 wounds. Alive painboy

Since Painboyz only ever appear in units with a max size of 10, it wouldn't be too hard to get him with Mind War. You just need to whittle the mob down a model or two first. A couple of Bright Lances would do it, especially if Guided.