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It works for anything where the leadership value of the mob is used.

A unit doesn't even have a leadership value. When you use the mob rule, you substitute the number of models in the mob for a leadership value. What leadership value do you think you're substituting for, if not the models in the mob?

Traskel wrote:It works for anything where the leadership value of the mob is used.

Mind war does not use the leadership of the mob. It uses the leadership of the individual model.

Traskel wrote:A unit doesn't even have a leadership value. When you use the mob rule, you substitute the number of models in the mob for a leadership value. What leadership value do you think you're substituting for, if not the models in the mob?

A unit' s leadership value is defined by the model with the highest leadership. Same thing with the mob and then modified by the mobz rul.

The mobz rule works for psychic tests, losing assaults, tank shocks and 25% casualties... Those are the psychic and morale checks. The mob rule itself talks about morale checks...it never mentions leadership tests. It mentions leadership but only in the context of morale checks.

Even if it did apply to leadership checks that still wouldn't help your arguement...leadership tests are roll 2d6 and hope for low. Mind war is d6 add your LD and hope high. 2 very different rules and different mechanics.

ender502

ender502

The question is whether or not Mob rule applies to anything outside of the weirdboy psychic and mob morale test/checks. I have yet to find a rule that says the mob rule efects anythoing outside of these two scenarios.

ummm...

"Mob rule!

Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, *Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.* ...

its all right there. This is as simple as it gets. This is real RAW at work. Literally follow the line I emphasized per what GW wants us (the players) to do. You literally replace said *model* (they use the word ork in the rule) LD with the new one provided by the mob. Please re-read the rule.

I believe that is what *substitute number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value means* Remember there is no listing anywhere for a stat line of a "ork mob" there is a stat line for a "ork" so you can only substitute that which only exists in the confines of the codex.

So individual orks in the mob (hence you can't replace something from a stat line that doesn't exist) are leadership of the number of orks in the mob. (notice it does single out the word ork in the second sentence.)

ender502 wrote:The mobz rule works for psychic tests, losing assaults, tank shocks and 25% casualties... Those are the psychic and morale checks. The mob rule itself talks about morale checks...it never mentions leadership tests. It mentions leadership but only in the context of morale checks.

This makes me think you haven't actually read the rule. It never mentions anything about any kind of check.

Also, show me where in the rules a units leadership is defined. It isn't, because units don't have a leadership value. A unit does use a leadership value (of a model) when taking a leadership test.

Traskel wrote:

ender502 wrote:The mobz rule works for psychic tests, losing assaults, tank shocks and 25% casualties... Those are the psychic and morale checks. The mob rule itself talks about morale checks...it never mentions leadership tests. It mentions leadership but only in the context of morale checks.

This makes me think you haven't actually read the rule. It never mentions anything about any kind of check.

Also, show me where in the rules a units leadership is defined. It isn't, because units don't have a leadership value. A unit does use a leadership value (of a model) when taking a leadership test.

That is because units take the checks.

Mind war is not a check of any sort, it is a shooting attack, you don't permanently change the leadership value, the rule states the MOB gets to use the leadership value. Not the model.

The whole point of contention is MOB versus MODEL. You are not targeting a mob with the shooting attack, you are targeting the model. He doesn't get to use mob leadership, as his unit isn't being targetted. He is.


And for those of you saying "since theirs no stat line for an ork mob, you can't use it!" thats a faulty argument. No one ever implied there was a leadership for a mob, but when the MOB takes a check the MOB gets to use the leadership value of the number of orks. The individual ork models don't just get the trickle down leadership because you want them to.


I'm caps'ing because I'm too lazy to bold, not because im internet yelling. Purely for emphasis.

The FAQ also clearly shows that Mob Rule allows for the LD value of a model in a mob to increase, so unless it works differently for different models (there is no reason it should), then it would work the same for a nob.

Note: The answer in the FAQ is part of the FAQ section, not the errata section. They are not making a correction to how the rules should read, but are answering how the rules as they are currently written work. For you to support your argument, you would have to show why it would work for a Weirdboy but not for a nob.

1) No it doesn't. It shows where the WEIRDBOYS ld in a mob can increase.

2) Just because you "don't see a reason it should" doesn't mean it does. GW's rules are permissive. They say the weirdboy can, he can, this doesn't just get slung willy nilly all over the codex just because it doesn't say other models can't.

3) No i wouldn't, you would have to find where it says that it works for a nob.

Just because the weirdboy gets to do it doesn't mean everyone else does.

GW's rules are permissive

The weirdboy can bla bla bla use mob leadership <- permissive

Your argument is essentially "it says x other model can, and it doesn't say this one can't....so it can too!"

Doesn't work like that.

My argument is that the way the rules are written in the codex allow you to always replace the LD value of a model in a mob w/ mob rule with the number of models in the mob.

The FAQ by GW supports my claim that this is the way the rule should be applied.

The FAQ is not a rule.

FAQs are not additional rules that are added, they are clarifications as to how the people at GW interpret the rules.

Traskel wrote:My argument is that the way the rules are written in the codex allow you to always replace the LD value of a model in a mob w/ mob rule with the number of models in the mob.

The FAQ by GW supports my claim that this is the way the rule should be applied.

The FAQ is not a rule.

FAQs are not additional rules that are added, they are clarifications as to how the people at GW interpret the rules.

The rule for mob rule says nothing about using the mob rule for every model in the squad. You keep saying this. It says the MOB may use the leadership. So when the MOB takes a check, it gets to use the leadership. You don't just extrapolate that down to every model in the squad. The weirdboy FAQ merely supports this, if they intended it to apply to everyone, you'd of seen them clarifying the mob rule in this way in the FAQ, not just specifically for the weirdboy.

The FAQ does not support your argument. You can't interpret what they meant or what they were thinking, this isn't how rules work. You go by the rules as written in the codex and in the FAQ. If they meant it to apply to all ork models, they'd of just put that in the FAQ instead of specifically talking about the weirdboy.

They didn't.

FAQS are only clarifications as you said, and they didn't clarify your rule, they clarified the weirdboy scenario.


I'd like to hear what YAKFACES take on this is, especcially since he helped write the FAQ's

er FAQ are anything that was missed out of the codex ... rules, stats, and other mistakes

now on to the rule ... i agree that its does sound like its the whole mob of orks that gets the LD boost not just the single guy ... should really read something like 'orks in a mob' ...
RAI orks in a mob, should get a LD boost ...
RAW they don't, units do have a LD value its the best LD value they've got ... its just one of those things

now the main question is why is a farseer within 18" and line of sight of a mob of orks? he should be running for his life

Jetbike seer council mind warring (and hopefully killing) a nob biker squads painboy.

And just for normal tomfoolery, of course

The Weirdboy's leadership is only increased because he has the special rule, 'Mob Rule'. Coincidentally, each Ork and Nob also possesses a special rule called Nob rule. Unless Mind War separates the Nob from his unit, then he is still a part of the mob, and may apply his special rule to increase his leadership. Any Ork model with this rule may always do this.

The same special rule behaves in the same way. That's the point of making it a rule. The Ork codex does not describe how the Painboy'z 'Feel no Pain' ability works because it is already defined. They didn't FAQ each and every unit with Mob Rule, because they are lazy, and assumed common sense would show that one model using a rule in one way was a guideline for how that rule applied to all models with that rule.


I'm not so hot with formal logic, but if A and B both have X rule, and a FAQ says that A benefits from it in one way, then it is reasonable to assume that B benefits from it in the same way. I'm sure someone else could present that better, but I hope that it is clear enough for you to get the point.

Thanks for not reading the first page and a half, real useful.


The weirdboy gets to use that for a psychic test. It doesn't say the weirdboy's leadership is substituted, it says for the purpose of his POWER he can use the mob rule.

And for any tests, yes they'll use the mobs leadership.

This is not any kind of a test at all. Its a shooting attack versus your LD.

'Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to
more than 10 by the Mob Rule?
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a
maximum of 10.'

This is from the FAQ. It does not apply to his power in the least.

A Weirdboy is not a mob, he is a single Independent Character. This provides the idea that Mob Rule may be applied to individual models in a mob. It also allows his leadership to be increased, which is a very pertinent reinterpretation of 'Mob Rule'. The leadership increase for the Weirdboy in the Faq is also independent of any type of test or check.

edit- Lol, and that is exactly what Utan said three or four posts in. How did it get on to this argument again?

Ah, my mistake, the codex is where it says

"Remember that a weirdboys leadership is affected by the mob rule"

It still doesn't matter however, as a painboy nob and a weirdboy are two completely different models.

By RAW, you don't get to just apply the weirdboys rules to the painboy because you want to, you feel it makes sense, you have fluff justification, etc.

Probably because you didn't read the previous posts.


We had moved on to the point that the weirdboy is not the same as a painboy, no matter how much "sense" it makes to you.

Very true, I should have read the previous posts before responding. Now on to the topic at hand.

Although a Weirdboy is not a Painboy, they do share the same rule, 'Mob Rule'. Because of GW's Faq of the way the Mob Rule works for a Weirdboy, we have to apply that to all the models that share that rule.

In the area of leadership altering rules, they are identical.

targetwag people here are using the weirdboy to draw precedence. Maybe it is a stretch but then maybe it isn't. You have used local rulings in tournaments to support your stance... obviously that does not necessarily have a bearing how a judge or TO would make the call outside of your frame of reference. Repeatedly beating your head against the proverbial brick wall will not make it go away. What I am saying is try a different tact. If an opinion regarding a rule is valid then certainly there must be more than one path to supporting your argument. I'm not knocking you in the slightest... just trying to show you a different manner in which to support your case.

G

Gitzbitah wrote:Very true, I should have read the previous posts before responding. Now on to the topic at hand.

Although a Weirdboy is not a Painboy, they do share the same rule, 'Mob Rule'. Because of GW's Faq of the way the Mob Rule works for a Weirdboy, we have to apply that to all the models that share that rule.

In the area of leadership altering rules, they are identical.

You do not "have" to apply that to all other models. You "Want" to apply that to all other models. Big difference. Nothing in the FAQ or rulebook or codex tells you to apply one models ruling to others.

GBF:

I get what you're saying about precedence, and when I mentioned previous tourney rulings, I only meant them to show that it had happened and been ruled as such. I in no way meant that to support the rules as they're written, my apologies if it seemed that way.

There is no other way to refute this rule, the side for applying it makes a leap it should not because it feels it can. You can't apply one models rules to another, precedence or no precedence, rules don't work that way.

No one has proved otherwise, or can prove otherwise.

Lets try the inverse, how about the side for using the Mob leadership for a model finds a different way of proving their point rather than just quoting a different models rules and an FAQ ruling for a different model.

So, following the logic of this thread, when you mind war my Plasma Gun Space Marine, I can use the sargeant's Ld value for the test?

Since we're supposed to use the highest Ld, right?

And under the old SM codex, I could have used my Commander's rules to use Ld 10 against any Mind War attacks against any model, since I can substitute his Ld?

That's what you're arguing here by saying that the Ork Mobz' Ld value is the Ld value of every model in the mob. Its certainly an interesting interpretation, and not one I necessarily agree with.

Cruentus wrote:So, following the logic of this thread, when you mind war my Plasma Gun Space Marine, I can use the sargeant's Ld value for the test?

Since we're supposed to use the highest Ld, right?

And under the old SM codex, I could have used my Commander's rules to use Ld 10 against any Mind War attacks against any model, since I can substitute his Ld?

That's what you're arguing here by saying that the Ork Mobz' Ld value is the Ld value of every model in the mob. Its certainly an interesting interpretation, and not one I necessarily agree with.

The use of squad leadership isn't really the application I'm arguing. My position is that each Ork model has the special rule ' Mob Rule'. Until they are separated from their mob, then their leadership is replaced by the number of models in the squad. I am basing this off of the FAQ which says that the Weirdboy's leadership can be increased to ten by 'Mob Rule'. This is not strictly for the purposes of any check or power, just a flat leadership swap.

I believe if one character with a rule can use it in this fashion, any other model which has the same rule, may use it in this fashion.

For your examples- 1. Absolutely not. Mind War targets a model, not a squad. As far as I know, a sergeant cannot swap his leadership with a plasma gunner.
2. I don't know what the 'Rites of Battle' rule specifically said, but I'm fairly certain it only used the commander's leadership when leadership or morale checks were taken. I don't think Mind War falls under either of those headings. Could you post the exact text?
3. I think the result is the same, but for the reasons I've given above. I don't think that interpretation is one I'd go for either.

Its fine for you to believe that and play it that way in home games, because as you "believe" thats how it should be, and thats perfectly fine.

However, for a strictly rules debate, the way you "believe" it to be doesn't happen to be the way it is.

The FAQ does not clarify the mob rule, it clarifies the weirdboy and his use of it. Every ork model has the mob rule, yes, but every ork model is not a weird boy, therefore they don't get to use his FAQ ruling for their own purposes.

Targetawag,

I know where your coming from I really do.

Your whole argument (and a good one at that) stems from the use of the words 'ork mobs' in the second to last sentence instead of the word 'ork' or 'model' or some other singular word.

But the rule is a rule that applies to *individual* models. In the codex, units do not possess the *mob rule. Only individual models do (examples include warboss, big mek, pain boy, ork boys, etc..).

The Mob rule IS an individual rule applied to the mob.

Notice the question in the FAQ does not ask anything about psychic powers of any sort but asks *only* about raising its leadership

Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to
more than 10 by the Mob Rule?
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a
maximum of 10

No where in there does it ask anything about tests, psychic powers, morale or anything else. It simply states that a model's leadership (in the confines of the question it is the weirdboy) is raised to 10.

So, let me ask you a question

If, you mind war a weirdboy, what leadership would you use?

According to the FAQ it is the mobs...since his leadership is raised verbatim from the FAQ.

The other question you should ask is why should you only apply it to the weirdboy and no other model.

Simply put, you can not seriously come to the conclusion that because a FAQ answered a question regarding one models effect of a special rule given to the whole army somehow doesn't effect other models with the same rule.

You could just pawn this off on the question not being very well worded in the FAQ, but by opening that can of worms, so can everyone else.

Ok. Why would the same rule be used in a different way by two models?

Is it necessary to FAQ every model that possesses the rule?

GW didn't FAQ the rule, they simply showed us how it should be used.

No, but it is necessary to FAQ the one rule that effects all the models.

I see your point better now however, if I mindwar'd a weird boy, I'd be hard-pressed to say that I wouldn't use ld10.

Part of the reason I argue this point is because (and this is RAI, odd for me) I don't believe mob rule was ever intended to effect mind war, just leadership tests, morale checks, etc.

The reason I feel that FAQ'd it for weirdboys is because people attempted to break the rule when it came out by saying "my leadership is now 30, I can't ever fail a psychic test".

Blah, at this point I'm frustrated enough by this that I just want YAKFACE to give an answer or someone to FAQ mind war specifically

targetawg wrote:No, but it is necessary to FAQ the one rule that effects all the models.

I see your point better now however, if I mindwar'd a weird boy, I'd be hard-pressed to say that I wouldn't use ld10.

Part of the reason I argue this point is because (and this is RAI, odd for me) I don't believe mob rule was ever intended to effect mind war, just leadership tests, morale checks, etc.

The reason I feel that FAQ'd it for weirdboys is because people attempted to break the rule when it came out by saying "my leadership is now 30, I can't ever fail a psychic test".

Blah, at this point I'm frustrated enough by this that I just want YAKFACE to give an answer or someone to FAQ mind war specifically

Why should people think/abuse/whatever wierdboyz the you´ve described it when the dex as well as the rulebook clearly says the only value which can rise above 10 is the attacks one?
There´s no way to get above 10 in any area and because it´s stated in the Ork Codex also you cant even argue that Mob Rule overwrites BRB Rules eh?
The FAQ was made - I´m pretty sure - to show that a wierdboy can use the MobRule to get a LD of 10. That´s all.

Just so everyone is clear about it, the text about "Remembering the Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule" is from the actual codex (p. 37).
It is not in the FAQ. Mob Rule was not "FAQ'd for the weirdboys". It is a codex statement based on how the rule applies to Orks in a mob.

targetawg wrote:Here's the entire rule, typed, verbatim from the codex.

"Mob rule!

Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule"

Page 31.

Mind war targets a specific model and instructs the players to roll a d6, adding the models leadership characteristic.

Thank you Targetawg for providing the Mob rule! quote for us.

So from the Mind war rule Targetawg has provided for us in the quote, we need to find the Orks Ld characteristic. I don't have the Eldar codex to hand so am not sure whether mind war needs the enemys leadership value, which would fit seemlessly with the wording in the mob rule, ( value + value ) or if indeed the wording on mind war is that it needs the enemys leadership characteristic. So going off what is provided for us, I think we can safeley assume that the words 'characteristic' and 'value' are of the same meaning in this case and are both freely interchangeable.

Note that the wording on our Orks Ld value / characteristic of 10+ in the mob rule as per the provided quote, mentions in no way: leadership checks, morale checks, tests, comparisons, wierdboys.

Here is an example of how Mob Rule! works:

Ork number one has Ld 7, he can swap his Ld value / characteristic for the number of models in his mob / unit. He has 29 Orks with him in his unit, all with the same Mob Rule! that he is using. He counts the number of Orks in his mob to determine his Ld value / characteristic. He can use his Ld of 7 or 10 as per the Mob Rule!

Ork number two has Ld 7, he can swap his Ld value / characteristic for the number of models in his mob / unit. He has 29 Orks with him in his unit, all with the same Mob Rule! that he is using. He counts the number of Orks in his mob to determine his Ld value / characteristic. He can use his Ld of 7 or 10 as per the Mob Rule!

...
...
...

Ork number twenty nine has Ld 7, he can swap his Ld value / characteristic for the number of models in his mob / unit. He has 29 Orks with him in his unit, all with the same Mob Rule! that he is using. He counts the number of Orks in his mob to determine his Ld value / characteristic. He can use his Ld of 7 or 10 as per the Mob Rule!

Ork number Thirty is our Nob who has Ld 7, he can swap his Ld value / characteristic for the number of models in his mob / unit. He has 29 Orks with him in his unit, all with the same Mob Rule! that he is using. He counts the number of Orks in his mob to determine his Ld value / characteristic. He can use his Ld of 7 or 10 as per the Mob Rule!

For morale checks (note these have nothing to do with mind war resolution) the mob as a whole uses the highest Ld value / characteristic of the models in the mob, which is 10 in the case of the mob 10+ strong. So the nob can get on with the fighting and any old Ork could be chosen to use for the Ld value / characteristic of the mob (even half-wit Zog).

targetawg wrote:You can't just change "ork mobss" to ork models because you want to.

So what is a group of singular orks collectively reffered to? A gaggle? No. A mob.

Look again at the ork special rules section of the ork codex,
pg31 "ORK SPECIAL RULES

The units in the Ork army list use a number of special rules that are common to more than one Ork unit. Given here are the details of those rules." The rules are then listed as Waaagh!, Mob Rule!, and furious charge.

So this tells us that a unit in the Ork army list, eg: an mob of Orks, gains a special rule that affects that unit. If a unit has a special rule it applies to every model in it (we are talking a basic unit here, with no independent characters to worry about the whole do they / don't they issue about special rules conferred to the unit / independent character). Unless you would like to argue that a unit of space marines with ATSKNF applies to the regular marines but not their sergeant? As this is very similar to what you are doing here.



Mind war lets you pick out a single Ork from the mob / unit. Even though targeted with precision, the Ork (A nob in the case ot the original post, but can also be an Ork with a big shoota, painboy, tankbusta with the last remaining bomb squig) is not seperated from his mob / unit and so he is still bound by the Mob Rule. The single Ork that is targeted looks to his Ld value to defend himself against the mind war. Because he is in a unit the Ork in question

targetawg wrote:may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.

which in the case of 10+ models in the mob / unit gives the targeted Ork his maximum Ld value of 10.

targetawg wrote:Lets try the inverse, how about the side for using the Mob leadership for a model finds a different way of proving their point rather than just quoting a different models rules and an FAQ ruling for a different model.

Did I do ok?

Every single ork ( even a Runtherd on his own even though he gets no benifit from his gretchin ) has the mob rule. It is one of the special rules for the army, it's what makes Orks, Orks.


On a fluff note, the Eldars strong psychic attack is coming up against the Orks fairly weak latent psychic abilities. The Ork is in the mood for fighting. So are his twenty nine mates (which includes his half-wit mate Zog). The more Orks you have fighting, the more psychic energy you have surrounding the Orks.

ender502 wrote:A unit' s leadership value is defined by the model with the highest leadership. Same thing with the mob and then modified by the mobz rul.

Any relevance to Mind War? No.

A models leadership value is on its profile. ( in the case of Mob Rule! this can be substituted for the number of Orks in the unit giving a mob Rule ld value that can be chosen from anywhere between 1-30, but then capped at ten. - meaning on a slightly off topic note, if you would need a unit of orks numbering less than 7 to fail a test for whatever reason you can think of, you can substitute it for ld 1 if desired according to the rule. )

For a Mind War test a single models ld is used, see my post above this one for more information on how a single Orks Ld is affected by the Mob Rule!



A unit's leadership value is indeed defined by the model with the highest Leadership for the purposes of a Leadership test look to pg 8 of the rulebook, " If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value" - this is used for Ld vs 2d6 tests, eg: a morale check / pinning check. ( note that this has no relevance to Mind War as Mind War is not a Leadership test )

Mind war uses the single Orks Ld+d6. Every single ork in that 10+ unit has Ld 10 as per the Mob Rule!

Middle-

I think you make some good points..but I know you are missing mine.

First, let me state where I think we agree....because of the mob rule the ork can "always" replace his leadership with the # or orks in the mob.

Second, where we disgree.... that mob rule is applied to any test other than "morale checks."

A restatement... It is suggested to me by the text of the mob rules where it states "Ork psychology and morale is directly linked..." that mob rule applies to morale checks....

I do not think that mob rule applies to anything else.... Why? because I always try to take the least expansive view of the rules.

ender502