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Stormtrooper, 8 pts: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8

Seargant, 8 pts: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8

Vet Seargant, +4 pts: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld9

Unit Composition: 1 Seargant and from 4-9 Stormtroopers.
Unit Type: Infantry
Weapons: Stormtroopers have Hellguns. Seargants may have either a hellgun or a hellpistol and close combat weapon.
Wargear: Carapace Armor, Targeters, Frag and Krak Grenades
Options: Up to 3 Stormtroopers may take these following weapons: , Plasma gun +10, Melta Gun +10. For every 2 Stormtroopers, you may take 1 combi Hellgun Flamer for +3 points, or 1 combi Hellgun Grenade Launcher for +4 points. The whole squad may take Melta bombs for +3 points per model.
You may replace the entire squad's Hellguns and Hellpistols/CCWs with Shotguns for free.
You may upgrade to have the extra option of "High Power" for +1 point per model.
Veteran Seargants may take a power weapon for +5 points, a combi Hellgun Plasma gun for +6 points, or a combi Hellgun Melta Gun for +6 points.
Special Rules:
May be taken as a compulsory troops choice if taken in squads of 8 or more.
Infiltrators: May choose to either Deepstrike or Infiltrate.
Targeters: Stormtroopers may reroll to hit rolls of 1, unless it is with a plasma gun. Rapid Fire weapons become Assault 1.

Weapon Profiles:
HellGuns (Must declare if using Low Power or High Power.)
Low Power: R24” Assault 3 STr 3 Ap5 Pinning
High Power: R18” Assault 1 Str 5 Ap - Rending (+1 ppm)

Hell Pistol (Must declare if using Low Power or High Power.)
Low Power: R12” Assault 2 Str 3 Ap 5 Pinning
High Power: R8” Assault 1 Str 5 Ap - Rending (+1 point)

Grenade Launchers: R24” Assault 1 Str 5 Ap 3, OR R24” Assault 1 Str 3 Ap 5 Template

Shotgun: R12" Assault 2 Str 4 Ap-

So here was my take on Stormtroopers. They're kind of like the Sternguard of the Imperial Guard, having a low strength "muppet mower" so to speak, yet they also have a higher strength weapon as well. I made it so that they can automatically choose to either Deepstrike or Infiltrate, and if you take a certain amount of them then they can become troops.

As you noticed I changed Targeters around. It's not that I didn't like the old one, but I like this version better personally. I also had to add combi Flamers and Grenade launchers because they're cool.

They may be a bit underpriced, however. Please let me know!

But also try and be constructive.


:edit 1: Changed High Power to Ap3, made up to 3 special weapons available, and reduced cost of Stormtroopers by 1 point.

:edit 2: Changed High Power again. Now has no AP value, but still retains rending. Also loses a bit of range. Hopefully this appeases some of the complaints about it being overpowered.

:edit 3: Didn't change High Power this time, but reduced the cost of Stormtroopers yet again by 1, and made High Power an option for +1 ppm. Also added the option of shotguns, and made it so that for every 2 stormtroopers you can take a combi-flamer or combi-grenade launcher as 10 BS4 blast templates is way too ott.

:edit 4: Okay, so I've reduced the price of stormtroopers yet again, this time by 2 points. They are now 8 points per model.

I like the idea, but think they are still over priced. if 4pt guardsmen are true, than I would never take these guys. 9pts maybe

Agreed, I think ST's should have access to three special weapons too, just like Hardened Veterans.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Stormtrooper, 12 pts: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Seargant, 12 pts: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Vet Seargant, +6 pts: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld9

Stormtroopers aren't worth 10 points today, so what makes you think they'll be worth 12+ pts?

If you compare with BS3 Sv5+ Lasgun Guardsmen (worth 5 pts, tops) and BS4 Sv3+ Bolter Sisters (easily worth 11 pts), then Bolter Storms are worth 8 pts, maybe 9 pts max if you throw in Infiltrate or Deep Strike for "FREE".

Oh yeah, hell gun is off, against t4 you would still use the str 3 tripple shot. Make high power str6 and we start to talk.

Yeah, for 12 pts, those Hellguns would need to be AP3

Okay, so I reduced the price of them by 1 point, made up to 3 special weapons available, and made the High Power shot Ap 3.

I don't want to get into Str 6 territory because then we start comparing things like multi lasers.

Then again I don't really like the Ap3 too much either. Um...how about R24" Assault 2 Str 5 Ap 5?

But I don't want to really step on the Tau's toes (hooves?) but I like this idea the most.

Anti-MEQ small arms? I'm not going to say this is a bad idea, ruleswise I think they are... err.... okay, if you like having broken, over-powered units... but fluff, game history, and by just about every perspective, this is probably one of the worst ideas out there.... they don't fit, anywhere, and I would say with 99.9% certainty it will never happen 99.9% of the time. Especially at those points, they pretty much are all armed with some of the best weapons in the game, custom made for anti-MEQ duty, which is totally uncharacteristic, and their special weapons options are not unheard of in IG history, combi-weapons did exist in the last codex, however not combi-hellguns. If anything, these troops are well under priced by two or three points.

I would write up a replacement suggestion, however I may as well start my own thread with it by how much I would have to change to make your "Stormtroopers" look like an improved current Stormtrooper, and not something completely new, alien, under priced, over powered, and totally breaking Imperial Guard fluff....

Aaaaand they have an AP3 gun because?

Now, assault 2 weapons, perhaps S4 AP- I could get. It's packing a bit more wallop into the Las Bolt, but it still has trouble penetrating better armour.

Two settings. Again, why? Same with the targetters, an inexplicable advantage. If they were this good, they'd be issued to all troops, not just Stormies.

I like the S3 Assault 3 idea, very Dawn of War. I'm not enamoured with the high strength mode either, maybe it should be an upgrade option like the combi weapons are.

@MDG: AP3 because he's charging a whopping 12 points on what should be an 8-pt model.

I say give the Hellguns 18" Assault 1 blast templates and be done with it.

Str5 ap3 assault rending hellguns is way over the top imo.

Just make Hellguns Str3 ap5 24" assault2 and reduce the price to 10pts.

I'm going to be totally honest and say that I grudgingly accepted the Ap3 idea. I didn't like it either.

Will fix this.

@Skinnattittar- You're the guy who made it so that Imperial Guard could have bolters, right? Yeah. Please don't talk about breaking fluff.
As to it breaking fluff however, my argument would be that fluff changes from edition to edition. I do agree that what the AP3 setting was was very overpowered however. Definitely agree with you on that!

@Mad Doc Grotsnik- I had 2 power settings because I thought that it would please both the "low Str but high rate of fire" and the "lower rate of fire but high Str" crowds. Turns out I just pissed off both.

As for the Targeters, I thought that their current incarnation was beyond lame. Stormtroopers are by far the best -human- soldiers the Imperium has to offer, and I thought that with the ability to reroll 1's and to reduce enemy cover saves was good. Perhaps the -1 to cover saves is too much?
And again, as befits the best human soldiers, they have the best equipment. Maybe a little too good now that I look at it now, though.

@ George Spiggott- Do you think that a -1 point reduction for Stormtroopers, but then make a +1 point upgrade for high powered Hellguns?

@ BoxANT- I agree with the high power. I don't like it either, as I stated above.

But I definitely don't like your idea to make them only Assault 2.

If the Hellgun became S4 AP- Rending, I'd be OK with that instead of S3 AP3.

But S3 AP5 is totally useless, whether it's A3 or whatever, as Storms are a close-in unit with their Meltas and Plasma.

Vladsimpaler wrote:@ George Spiggott- Do you think that a -1 point reduction for Stormtroopers, but then make a +1 point upgrade for high powered Hellguns?

Yeah, pretty much if I ignore the changes to the targeter rules, the high power/combi weapon upgrades and add in the option for S4 AP - Shotguns they're pretty much dead on how I'd want Storm troopers to be. People should bear in mind that 4 point guardsmen may be a myth after 'compulsory' upgrades are taken into account.

When did the Guard not have bolters available to them? Lemme check...
Guard had bolters available to them in Rogue Trader/First Edition.
Guard had bolters available to them in 2nd Edition.
Guard had bolters available to them in 3rd Edition.
Guard had bolters available to them in 4th Edition.
Guard has bolters available to them in 5th Edition.

In Fluff;
Guard have been portrayed with bolters and high power lasguns/lasguns on higher setting which increased their stopping power and armor penetration, since, well, forever.... And no, fluff has not changed much from edition to edition. Some background details and such, or the facts surrounding the Horus Heresy, but not since from going to 3rd Edition has the fluff of the Warhammer 40,000 universe changed so drastically as to let the Guard have weapons technology superior to all the races (combined!), especially at such points cost. Fluff better supports Las-Bolters (lasguns with bolter style performance) than what you are suggesting. I agree, Stormtroopers are WAY overpriced, if you are to use them as a troop choice, and mildly (one or two points about) over priced when being used as an elites choice. Giving them what is essentially the greatest rifle in the history of the game is a bit overkill and to call them "fair" at 11pts and available as a basic troops choice (4 units if you are not using Grenadiers), or relatively infinite if you are not limiting yourself to the Force Organization Chart, whether they are troops choice or otherwise.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the Hellgun became S4 AP- Rending, I'd be OK with that instead of S3 AP3.

But S3 AP5 is totally useless, whether it's A3 or whatever, as Storms are a close-in unit with their Meltas and Plasma.

Assault 3 Str 3 Ap5 is pretty much the exact same thing as Assault 2 Str 4 Ap 5 when you do math hammer. However I really wanted to avoid the 'bolter' feel. Many, many armies have bolters as their main weapons. I don't want Avenger Shuriken Catapult lasguns. The high RoF is compensated by the low Str if you'd actually take the time to math hammer it.

@ Skinnattittar- I'll be damned, the Imperial Guard did have bolters. Point conceded to you. I apologize for having been so rude about it.
However never once did I call my rendition of stormtroopers fair. If you look at my original post you'll see that I put,

They may be a bit underpriced, however. Please let me know!

in the original post. I never, ever want to make something underpriced. Worth its points, yes, but never underpriced. That just goes against everything that I believe in, in terms of design.

What would be your suggestion for the high powered version? I feel that the low powered version is okay, but what of the high powered version of the hellgun? I think that's where most of the controversy comes from, and this is my fault so I want to fix it.

Why shouldn't Hellguns simply be S4 Bolters of some sort? It's characteristically Imperial, and makes a good progression.
5-pt BS3 S3 AP- T3 Sv5+ Guardsman
8-pt BS4 S4 AP5 T3 Sv4+ Storm
11-pt BS4 S4 AP5 T3 Sv3+ Sister
15-pt BS4 S4 AP5 T4 Sv3+ Marine

Categorically, Storms slot below Sisters. Nobody should ever pay more than 9 pts for a Storm when Sisters are 11 pts.

So if you are going to make them comparable, giving up Sv3+, the gun needs to be obviously better than a Bolter - i.e. S4 AP3.

@ DD : You forget Stormtroopers also come with Infiltrators and Deepstrike, Battle Sisters do not. 10pts is, of course, still too much without the 3+ save, 9pts is considerable if they are to stay a troops/elites option that you want to discourage taking a dozen squads of them, 8pts is all around decent as a troops point value if Hellguns stay S3 AP5. If we say Guardsmen are worth 5pts (no way in hell are they worth less than that, period) each, then tack on that carapace at say, 1.5pts, the BS4 and extra Ld at another 1.5pts, we get 8pts, giving AP5 away is okay, as it really isn't that useful (consider the number of 5+ and 6+ saves out there and factor in the likelyhood of cover saves) and there is still some give to the Guard at 8ppm of Stormtroopers. S4 you're moving towards underpriced, as the extra strength makes a real difference. 9ppm perhaps isn't a fair price, as the Stormtroopers are now only 2pts diffferent from Sisters, whom we shouldn't be using as a perfect comparison but it seems reasonable, so tack on Infiltrators and Deepstrike to make it fair.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why shouldn't Hellguns simply be S4 Bolters of some sort?

So if you are going to make them comparable, giving up Sv3+, the gun needs to be obviously better than a Bolter - i.e. S4 AP3.

Why shouldn't they? Because it's BORING. The guns ARE bolters, mathematically.

You also seem to forget that 3+ saves took a bit of a hit in 5th edition.

I also don't want to step on the toes of the Thousand Sons, and I don't want to help enforce the fact that the stormtroopers are in some hierarchical structure power-level wise in which they're above Guardsmen yet below Battle Sisters.

In terms of importance this is true, but comparing Stormtroopers to Battle Sisters is imo comparing apples to oranges.

The stormtroopers have targeters and free infiltrate/deepstrike.

So...we pretty much arrive at the point of...should they be 8 or 9 points? Perhaps 8 points is a fair price for these guys, so I'll go with 8.

So what if it"s "boring"?

Storms are Imperials, and more elite than Guardsmen.

Ergo, Bolters.

Which makes them worth 8 pts (9 with Deep Strike / Infiltrate - recall that Storms aren't Faithful, and have NO Heavy weapons).

Stormtrooper: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Vet Seargant: WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld9

Unit Composition: 1 Seargant and 4 Stormtroopers at 45 points. you may add up to 5 stormtroopers at +8 points each.
Unit Type: Infantry
Weapons: Stormtroopers have Hellguns. Seargants may have either a hellgun or a hellpistol and close combat weapon.
Wargear: Carapace Armor, Targeters, Frag and Krak Grenades
Options: Every 3rd Stormtrooper may take one of the following weapons: Plasma gun +10, Melta Gun +12, Flamer +5, sniper rifle +7.
You may add a combi Grenade Launcher for +3 points to any stormtrooper with a HellGun.
Any stormtrooper may replace the Hellgun with a Shotgun for free.
Veteran Seargant may:
-replace CCw with = a power weapon for +5 points,
-take = a meltabomb for +5 points,
-replace hell pistol with = a plasmapistol for +10 points,
-replace hellgun with = a stormbolter for +3 points.

Special Rules:
May choose to either Deepstrike or Infiltrate.Can't take a dedicated transport with either Deepstrike or infiltrate.
Targeters: Stormtroopers may ignore DoW conditions.

Weapon Profiles:
HellGuns: standard mode= R24” Rapid fire STr 3 Ap5
HellGuns: charged mode= R24" Heavy 1 S 4 Ap 4

Hell Pistol : R12” Assault 1 Str 3 Ap 5

combiGrenade Launchers: R24” Heavy 1 Str 5 Ap 4, OR R24” Assault 1 Str 3 Ap 6 3" blast
Rule:
Every combiGrenade Launcher can be used once in a game. Declare fire mode first. All used CGL must use the same mode.
A CGL counts as seperate weapon and is used instead of the HellGun.

Shotgun: R12" Assault 2 Str 4 Ap-

Dedicated transport:
a squad of stormtroopers may take one of the following:
option a) chimera (codex IG)
option b) valkyrie (FW)

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Please let me know!
But also try and be constructive.

I've tried

JohnHwangDD wrote:So what if it"s "boring"?

Storms are Imperials, and more elite than Guardsmen.

Ergo, Bolters.

Which makes them worth 8 pts (9 with Deep Strike / Infiltrate - recall that Storms aren't Faithful, and have NO Heavy weapons).

I don't know, I'm pretty sure that I want hellguns, and not bolters.

@ 1hadhq

I like some of your ideas like every 3rd stormtrooper taking a special weapon, but I really don't like hellguns being rapid fire. They should really be assault weapons.

Is it okay if I add the every 3rd stormtrooper can take a special weapon?

Bleh I forgot about transports! I need to add that.