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Of what I am concerned:

Staff of Ultramar is ruled to be double-handed by RAW(!), while it is not stated anywhere around codex what type is it. Afaik every time unique item is double handed (cannot be used with additional ccw) this is stated clearly in the rules.


Laser Lance. Is it a special close cobmat weapon? Or is it a ranged that only can be used on a turn you initiate an assault, and is completely useless in other assault phases?, (thus making Autarch 4A while not assaulting?)

Zubb wrote: Afaik every time unique item is double handed (cannot be used with additional ccw) this is stated clearly in the rules.

Actually just because some of the two-handed items are specifically mentioned in the rules as being such does not mean that those are the only ones. The truth is there is no 'default' number of hands it takes to use a weapon according to the rules.

Ok. How then it is then figured out that by RAW that Staff is two handed?

Also, just becouse I can't recall any, can you name some double-handed unique weapons?

I'm not saying that it is, am I? No. RAW does not support it being single-handed and RAW does not support it being two-handed. I'm saying that by RAW that there is no answer.

I believe its because the Staff of Ulthramar is an improved Singing Spear which are stated as being a 2 handed weapons.

As to the lance Give me a day or so to dig out from Christmas and I'll try to find the rule.

Its an improved witchblade if its anything improved on. A singing spear can be thrown, a witchblade can not. A Staff of Ulthanmar also can not be thrown.

There is no reference to the staff being a single handed weapon, and absolutely no reference that its a two handed weapon. There are two things that one can imply about the weapon and they both suggest that its a one handed weapon.

1. The 5th ed rulebook has no rules for 2 handed weapons, other than a single reference that says if a model is fighting with a 2handed weapon it may not use it with another weapon. I.E all close combat weapons are single handed, and that's explicit. (and any codex that says otherwise is more correct)

2. The actual model weilds the weapon in one hand, thus implying that its a single handed weapon.

The only thing that possibly supports that the staff is a 2 handed weapon is... we commonly associate a staff as a 2 handed weapon. However... not all staves are used in 2 hands, for instance a bo staff used in japaneese early culture is used with one hand.

In play, I've always used it as a one handed weapon, and I've had it used against me as a one handed weapon. No questions have ever been brought up in tournament play that I can ever recall.

** the argument is much the same with a laser lance... except, on a charge per the description, they count as str6 power weapons. They are definately one handed because of that.

Lances are denitely one-handed. It is stated in Autarch entry. The question if it is of any use in hth after u've charged.

Ghaz - sry for misunderstanding.

Think all the weapons who are 2 handed have it stated in their description or are a special type that is 2h in its "normal" state.

Kallbrand wrote:Think all the weapons who are 2 handed have it stated in their description or are a special type that is 2h in its "normal" state.

Except there's no rule that states that's the case. It's just an assumption on your part.

Simply put, it doesn't state whether it's one-honded or two-handed. Ergo, it cannot be used to gain +1 attack since it isn't stated to be one-handed. Course, IMO, it's a moot point since I belive that the two special weapons rule that says you never get a bonus attack takes precedence over the possible +1 attack for two weapons......................
But that's just me.

Just because it's not stated to be one-handed doesn't automatically make it two-handed. The fact is that there is no answer that can be supported by the rules.

I think the 5th ed rulebook not discussing two handed weapons is indicative.

This issue existed last year too. IIRC last year’s INAT FAQ made a ruling that all close combat weapons were one handed unless otherwise specified, and that all shooting weapons were two handed unless otherwise defined. Yak, C99- Why the reversal?

So then Ghaz how should it be ruled "unoficialy" then?
And what 'bout the lance?

Zubb wrote:So then Ghaz how should it be ruled out then?

As I've already stated several times, there is no answer that can be supported by the rules 100%. How you decide to play it will have to be a house rule.

NOTE: Yak's replied to and seemingly reopened the original post in the News & Rumours forum in regards to the Adepticon FAQ.

Bang i have an indirect proof of staff being double-handed =) At least it may be enough for making a home-rule.

Lookin at, say Autach, we can figure out that Eldars still hold on to x2 single + x1 double weapons limit.

Witchblade and surpistol are single handed weapons => Eldrad has only a double handed "slot" free. That being filled by Staff.


I know it is a weal proof, but its better then nothing ^^

No, you do not have 'indirect proof' of the Staff being two-handed. There is no proof that the Staff is either one- or two-handed.

Secondly, there is no limit to the number or type of weapons that Eldar models can use. The older codices limited them to a maximum of two weapons, of which only one could be two-handed. Using those rules, then Eldrad would be illegal since he has three weapons, not two. On top of that, those restrictions never applied to special characters anyway. Your 'indirect proof' has no support and is based on your flawed understanding of the rules in the older codices as well.

Are there any 2 handed weapons that dont have it specified? The base seems to be that the they are one handed and that the rule for them beeing 2 handed is added in if they are.

Kallbrand wrote:Are there any 2 handed weapons that dont have it specified?

If it's not specified, then how do we know how many hands it takes without making an assumption?

Kallbrand wrote:The base seems to be that the they are one handed and that the rule for them beeing 2 handed is added in if they are.

Except once again, that's an assumption that can't be backed with the actual written rules.

AFAIK no weapon in the rulebook or the newer codices state that it is single-handed.

Still most people treat shooting weapons other than pistols as two-handed and pistols and all close combat weapons as single-handed as long as their description doesn't says otherwise.

This is the most logical assumption to make and as there are no rules you have to assume something.

So by that assumption the Staff of Ulthamar is single-handed.

Except we're not looking for 'assumptions', we're looking for the actual rules.

So where is there an actual rule to back up your 'assumption'?

Ghaz, I'll dare to ask you to be a bit more relaxed. We are not at court.
Up to date Eldar codex imposes limit of 2+1 weapons on certain models. (Autarch: sur pistol (single) + 1 single + 1 double).
All special characters I can recall followed the 2+1 rule.

As you have stated there is no direct answer in the rules on the Staff question. So we must look for indirect ways. If we stick to your position we aren't geting anywhere.

And again, there is no OFFICIAL RULE that answers your question. Looking at it in 'indirect ways' is not going to suddenly make an answer appear. There is no correct answer that can be supported by the printed rules. None whatsoever. You can make whatever house rule you want, but it in no way makes it an official rule.

Sometimes the rules as presented to us are unplayable. That's a matter of fact and when that's the case, you can't get anywhere. It's not 'my' position, it's the position that the rules have left us in and nothing short of a FAQ from GW is going to change that.

I'm not making a claim for any "official" ruling. But the fact that we do play "unplayable" rules doesn't meen we aren't playing, right? And when we are forced to home rule/FAQ ourselves a question, how shall we do it?

You see, "No answer" is not an answer, and I'm looking for the best way to "home rule" the staff question. And having a seniour forum member SHOUTING in the topic doesn't help much. Gratefull beforehead for the help.

And again, there is no OFFICIAL RULE. However you decide to play it is nothing more than a HOUSE RULE. Yes, 'no answer' is an answer when you're asking for an official rule. Otherwise you're just making up rules which do not exist.

Did you ask for a HOUSE RULE? No. You asked for the OFFICIAL RULE and that is what you got. And by the official rules, there is no answer. Get over it. It does not make your house rule official.

There would be no need for 'shouting' if you'd listen to what somebody is saying.

Ok, I'm patient =) We'll repeat. I agree with you, there is no official rulling.

And I do not ask for an official rulling.

I ask for any ideas on how can we come up with a nice house rule.

Are this points clear? For clarity I'll state - if I speak about using "indirect ways to come with something" it indeed means that it is going to be unofficial. Official rulings are direct.

Enjoy yourself, it is just an Internet Forum about toy soldiers.

Zubb.
Look at it this way.

There is nothing that makes the Staff more two-handed (or single-handed) than a power weapon.

Neither have any description that makes it so and models wielding them use only one hand.

Actually there is nothing to suggest that its a 2 handed weapon. Since there are no rules in the BRB for what counts as a 2 handed weapon, one shouldn't assume there's any reason to asssume any weapon that is specifically allowed to be used in combat is anything other than a close combat weapon and therefore without using assumptions all close combat weapons are inherently 1 handed, (unless the weapon states in its description in their codex that it is something else, aka singing spear states its a 2 handed weapon).

Webbe wrote:Zubb.
Look at it this way.

There is nothing that makes the Staff more two-handed (or single-handed) than a power weapon.

Neither have any description that makes it so and models wielding them use only one hand.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Its an improved witchblade if its anything improved on. A singing spear can be thrown, a witchblade can not. A Staff of Ulthanmar also can not be thrown.

There is no reference to the staff being a single handed weapon, and absolutely no reference that its a two handed weapon. There are two things that one can imply about the weapon and they both suggest that its a one handed weapon.

1. The 5th ed rulebook has no rules for 2 handed weapons, other than a single reference that says if a model is fighting with a 2handed weapon it may not use it with another weapon. I.E all close combat weapons are single handed, and that's explicit. (and any codex that says otherwise is more correct)

2. The actual model weilds the weapon in one hand, thus implying that its a single handed weapon.

The only thing that possibly supports that the staff is a 2 handed weapon is... we commonly associate a staff as a 2 handed weapon. However... not all staves are used in 2 hands, for instance a bo staff used in japaneese early culture is used with one hand.

In play, I've always used it as a one handed weapon, and I've had it used against me as a one handed weapon. No questions have ever been brought up in tournament play that I can ever recall.

** the argument is much the same with a laser lance... except, on a charge per the description, they count as str6 power weapons. They are definately one handed because of that.

Actually after reading and examining the models I've come to realize that the staff is neither witchblade or Singing spear. It has no vehicle damage capability and nothing linking it to either weapon mentioned in its description.

The question matters not any way as in Eldrads description and how he's modeled, he's listed as carrying a Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade, and the Staff. So the whole argument is pretty much a waste of time.

As to the lance, It is a strength 6 power weapon on the charge and charge only(representing firing at impact). It is a normal combat weapon otherwise and except for the autarch no one carries a pistol. What happens if the autarch goes to two weapon fighting while piloting a Jet Bike? So, I,d say no extra attacks for two weapons while on jetbike.......But hey, I'm silly that way.

Tell that to WD.

Autarch
Jetbike, reaper launcher, laser lance, banshee mask

ungulateman

(I realise it was "attached" to the jetbike, but I'm too lazy to make a more coherent argument.)

EDIT: It says it's a singing spear with re-rolls to wound.

ungulateman wrote:EDIT: It says it's a singing spear with re-rolls to wound.

Thats Prince Yriel of Iyandens Twilight Spear not the Staff of Ulthramar carried by Eldrad.