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Here is a scenario for you. A BloodThirster with Killing Blow ability attacks a treeman (non ancient version).

During the roll to wound the BT gets a 6 on the dice. That would meet the killing blow requirement.

The treeman gets a single wound from this. But does it get it's Armour Save or it Regeneration save if it has one? Or does it take the wound with no Armour Save or Regenration save? It would get any ward save if it has one.

Please cite what rules you you are refering to and why you believe your interpretation to be correct.

Killing Blow is in the Rule book on Page 95.

" Some Warriors have honed the craft of killing into an art.Tales are told of Master Swordsmen who can decapitate a man with one stroke of their blade.

If a model with the Killing blow special rule rolls a 6 when rolling to wound in close combat , he automatically slays his opponent. No armour saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound, though ward saves can be taken as normal.

This attack is only effective against models with a unit strength of 2 or less. It can be used against characters mounted on chariots and chatacters mounted on monsters , as long as the riders themselves are only unit strength 2 or less and only hits against directed against the rider and not the mount/chariot will use the killing blow rule."

Take into account that Skulltaker can kill on a 5+ and any unit strength during a challenge. Does this include mounts that can be targetted? "In a challenge Skulltakers killing blow will take effect on a 5+, rather then 6+ and can affect creatures of all sizes."

Also take into account that the Vampire Counts Cadaverous Cuirass states "Killing blow and/or Poison Attacks have no additional effect against the wearer."

I agree that the treeman would not be slain outright. But does he get his saves?

My gaming group play it that Killing Blow ALWAYS denies the Saves etc, but can only fully kill mansized and Cavalry models.

No idea if this is particularly correct (every time I look at the wording I decide differently)

However, the challenge one with Skulltaker...although the mount fights in the challenge, it is the Character who was challenged, ergo only he suffers the bonus. At least thats how I would play it.

Why are VC items relevant to a BT KBing a Treeman?

KB does not allow armor or regeneration, only ward saves. If a KB is not stopped, the model loses all remaining wounds. Normally KB will only work on man sized models (on foot and mounted) due to the limitation of US 2 or lower. A special rule allowing it to work on larger models (such as the Bret vow) would supersede this.

So, unless the BT can KB Large targets, the 6 does nothing special.

To Mad Doc: Skulltaker could decide one of his attacks is going on the Mount. Therefore if he gets the killing blow he could kill the mount with one shot. Otherwise why would they ever say he can kill a creature of any size, but only in a challenge. Because a creature cannot accept a challenge. And the mount does get its attacks in the challenge.

To Jmurph: The VC point is an example where someone could have protection from killing blow. No imediate relevance but gives an example of someone who has 'immunity' to killing blow because of a magic item. Does that affect the concept of a killing blow and the saves versus a killing blow?

It seems that skulltaker has the ability to use Killing Blow against creature when in a challenge but not when no challenge has been made. (Skulltaker must either make or acceept any challenges as well). But depending on how you read the rules he cannot attack the mount with killing blow. So why is it important to say "creature of any size?" For treeman acients or other monsterous lords only? This means Skulltaker can kill a bloodthirster or treeman ancient or a Great Unclean One, but cannot kill a Dragon, Manticore or other monsterous mount. Even in a challenge.

I have played it that the Killing blow attack does 1 wound with no armour saves or regeneration saves versus Monsterous creatures. (Treeman, Dragon, Giant).

Any other comments or opinions?

If the killing blow is ineffective because of some sort of "protection" or the model is larger that US2 (for most people who can't KB large targets) then it is just a normal attack. The rule is negated, and the attack is resolved as normal.

Immune = no effect. The whole package is negated.

Da_Viking wrote:To Mad Doc: Skulltaker could decide one of his attacks is going on the Mount. Therefore if he gets the killing blow he could kill the mount with one shot. Otherwise why would they ever say he can kill a creature of any size, but only in a challenge. Because a creature cannot accept a challenge. And the mount does get its attacks in the challenge.

"Creatures"(there is no definition of this word in the Rule Book) can't accept Challenges, but Greater Daemons, Treeman Ancients, Ogre Characters(and Champions), etc. CAN accept Challenges and they're all immune to KB normally. Skulltaker's KB works on anyone he challenges, regardless of size. The word "creature" is a fluff word and should actually be read as "model".

Your right, creatures can't accept challenges. However, a Monster such as a dragon, ridden by a character who is in a challenge is now part of that challenge and can be hit by Skulltaker, and can hit him as well.

I have to agree with Mannahnin. The rule itself states that the KB attack is only effective against US 2 or less. You can't use KB to ignore the armor save of ogres or dragons.

Part of the reason that I am submitting this question here is to get clarity from more experienced players. But I will point out that the attack is Only effective against US2 or less. Effective to me represents the fact that it would kill off a model. And that is why I have played it based on if the target is us3 or greater I would only do 1 wound with no armour / regeneration save.

But based on opinion it seems that most people play that a person with killing blow looses that ability (in it's entirty) when dealing with US3 or greater models. So in fact I loose a special ability when attacking a Ogre.

Now if I can find a way for Elves to loose their ASF special ability maybe I can get a few hits in. (hmmm... Nurgle has that ability to....)

Thanks. I will continue to monitor.

As to ASF, look at the WE item that makes a model in contact strike last. That trumps ASF, apparently. Also impact hits beat ASF.

Your interpretation of "effective" is a little funny, then, no? I mean, if the attack still ignored my armour/regen, I would argue the attack was still pretty effective!

Also, High Elves don't their ASF vs impact hits...that's one way to get around it.

Zoned

To Mad Doc: Skulltaker could decide one of his attacks is going on the Mount. Therefore if he gets the killing blow he could kill the mount with one shot. Otherwise why would they ever say he can kill a creature of any size, but only in a challenge. Because a creature cannot accept a challenge. And the mount does get its attacks in the challenge.

it will only work against a mansized or cavaly (man on a horse) sized enemy.

However you cannot delegat skulltakers attacks agaisnt a non monstrous mount. The point is moot as if it is monstrous it cannot be KilingBlow-ed and if not you cannot attack it specifically.

Skulltakers killing blow works on anything, even US 3 or better.

Post deleted due to serious misunderstanding. My bad.

He's talking about a 1-wound mount, which cannot be attacked seperately from the character riding it.

Mannahnin wrote:Immune = no effect. The whole package is negated.

Totally agree. If your attacking a US3 of above model then no aspect of the killing blow rules applies. The unit gets their saves (Armour, Regen and Ward) as normal.

Unless you are skulltaker you cant killing blow a treeman.

Im not even sure why this is a discussion, its perfectly clear in the rulebook that the Killing blow rules only applies to models that are US1 or 2.

Brettonian Paladin or Lord with the right virtue can killing blow a treeman too. Hell, skulltaker and others that have no restriction on killing blow can use it on a steam tank. look it up.

Skulltaker cannot KB a steamtank as his super choppy rules only apply in challenges. He can totally KB a ridden monster in a challenge though.

Gotcha

Based on my updated understanding of the rules Skulltaker cannot KB a mount. As from the rules page 95 you cannot direct a KB attack agaisnt the mount.

So Skulltaker can kill a Treeman Ancient, a BloodThirster, GUO, LOC, KOS, Demon Prince, Gaulach (Chaos Dragon character), Dwarf Thane on Shieldbearers and Ogre Lords Heros and Champions. In addition to anyone he can normally KB anyone with a US of 1 or 2.

Skulltaker cannot KB a Treeman, Ogre unit (RnF) or any other dragons, wyverns, manticores, Hydras or other monsterous mounts. Because you cant challenge them or use the KB to remove a mount. And they are all US3 or greater. And they still get any armour save, ward save. Skulltakers attacks are flaming so that negates the regeneration saves.

Thats right Skulltaker can kill a Treeman Ancient but not a Treeman. Still does not make sense to me.

Buts thats the way my cookie crumbled.