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Taking a look down the blogs and painting forums, I see some things that amaze me and some things that I believe look terrible.

If I don't like something, I tend to say nothing or offer a useful suggestion for improvement. I've noticed it's usually silent on something folks don't like until one person is openly critical, then we see a flurry of others jumping in to say how crap they think something is.

So I have a fear, a fear we are going to send some new modeller off to throw in the towl and never attempt to sculpt or greenstuff or convert or paint again. It's one of my pet peeves, that the online community's willingness to be so bloody-minded and downright rude, due to anonymity, will stifle someone who could go on to perfect techniques and blow us all away with their skills.

So I'd like to ask folks to offer constructive help or remain silent. Like my gran used to say, "if you cant say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

This isn't a rant or a preach from the pulpit, it's just a request to help encourage, not toast folks who can benefit from advice and experience of others.

I totally agree with what you say.

That's stupid.

I have no problems with people telling me my stuff sucks, aslong as they provide specific reasons, then its constructive criticism.

But if they just type one sentence like
" hmm lol "
then i cant really do anything with that :"/

I feel that if some one doesn't like the Model then they should either give tips on how they feel it could be made better or just keep there trap shut!

If new people come to the game and have every one just say they suck at modeling or painting they are unlikely to try again, or continue to come here.

"Your stuff sucks because of A, B and C which you could fix by doing 1, 2 and 3," is better than "Your stuff sucks, LOL."

But it's not as good as, "You seem to be having difficulty with A, B and C, etc."

Politeness always makes criticism go down better. It helps prevent threads degenerating into a festival of flaming.

Of course the 'Sucks, LOL' kind of posters may well not have anything useful to contribute.

That's idiotic, MGS.

There, now everyone else can criticize you as well.

As a general rule, I try to offer reasons and suggestions why I think something isn't great. If I dislike something for artistic or stylistic reasons (I just don't like it personally, but someone else might), I'll try to separate that from issues that are more technical/technique in nature.

I try to offer possible suggestions, while avoiding "that sucks" type comments.

I think it's good to encourage people to paint and show their work.

I feel that the only "rule" should be "no personal attacks". As long as you are not directly insulting someone, then feel free to express. There is an ignore button for a reason.

Someone being "offended" is relative, what one may find offensive, another might not. If we govern our actions and discussions by the fear that we "might" offend someone, then we limit freedom :(

People who make worthless posts will simply be ignored by people who are taking offense.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Taking a look down the blogs and painting forums, I see some things that amaze me and some things that I believe look terrible.

If I don't like something, I tend to say nothing or offer a useful suggestion for improvement. I've noticed it's usually silent on something folks don't like until one person is openly critical, then we see a flurry of others jumping in to say how crap they think something is.

So I have a fear, a fear we are going to send some new modeller off to throw in the towl and never attempt to sculpt or greenstuff or convert or paint again. It's one of my pet peeves, that the online community's willingness to be so bloody-minded and downright rude, due to anonymity, will stifle someone who could go on to perfect techniques and blow us all away with their skills.

So I'd like to ask folks to offer constructive help or remain silent. Like my gran used to say, "if you cant say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

This isn't a rant or a preach from the pulpit, it's just a request to help encourage, not toast folks who can benefit from advice and experience of others.

I 100% agree. And some of the time it's absolutely blatant that the said modeler/painter is very young and is exactly the type of person who doesn't need the kind of onslaught some people get. As for solving it, good luck, I was quite surprised up until recently about the amount of people that have no care at all about being constructive or nice. There are always a few however I have noticed who manage to ignore the general trend of idiocy and post something helpful, which I hope will keep the said person from throwing in the towel as you put it.

edit: + to add to: "if you cant say anything nice, don't say anything at all", "treat others how you would like to be treated yourself"

I prefer constructive criticism, myself. I've long been on the receiving end of the "man, your painting sucks" type comments.

Telling me how I can perhaps rectify such issues is much better than simply taking on the mantle of "Captain Obvious" and telling me stuff I already know. The old "teach a man to fish" thing.

Plain criticism simply gets ignored by me. Sure, I get it, you don't like it for whatever reason. NOT telling me why isn't going to help me know though, now is it?

I often check the profile/topics/images of the user before commenting.

When you get an idea of age and skill level you know how to pitch your attack/critisism!

To the people touting the ignore button, there is actually a method that is much easier than forcing someone to resort to such methods.

Don't respond.

If you hate something sooo much that you will be unable to do something that doesn't offend someone to the extent that they will press the ignore button, then I suggest that your key-happy fingers type something useful on some other thread.

This has several benefits: 1st, whoever you were about to burn will continue to make stuff that you think is crap... eventually however, they will become decent, or even good modelers/painters, and so you will have nothing to complain about, or they will stop the hobby anyways and again you will have nothing to complain about.

2nd, the person you were about to shoot down, who is blissfully unaware of the contempt you hold for his craft, will not ignore you, and, will be able to benefit from your clearly superior abilities.

3rd, there is no risk of a fire-fight occurring and, as a consequence, no risk of disciplinary action.

4th, since you have put something constructive on some other thread, your peers will come to have greater respect for your mental abilities and you will not be relegated the trolle stereotype

Constructive suggestions beat the daylights out of a simple, "That looks like crap"

Remember, we were all new and untalented at one point, and many of us (myself most certainly included) are still learning a great deal.

It's easier to criticise an experianced painter. They are clearly invested in the hobby and you can give precise tips on things to change and improve. Furthermore you can be assured they are more likely to take it on the chin and take it on board than be disheartened by it.

But with an obvious novice painter what can you say more than "you just need to practice", which is where everyone has to start. Beyond obvious tips like "thin your paint" and "use undercoat" there's little more you can do until a person reaches a certain level of competency. Then they have a solid foundation on which to try new things.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
So I'd like to ask folks to offer constructive help or remain silent. Like my gran used to say, "if you cant say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

I would like to redefine con-structive help in the following way:
'if you can't say why it's good or bad, keep your opinion to yourself until you're capable of expressing it'
Good or bad, both sides need to be told, what's usually missing is proper motivation.

Rule #1 is be polite, and we like to enforce that in the painting forums more than anywhere else. If you see those sorts of negative, unhelpful comments, then please click the alert moderator button on the post and a mod will dive in. Keeping contributors happy and enjoying themselves is extremely important for dakka.

Kilkrazy wrote:"Your stuff sucks because of A, B and C which you could fix by doing 1, 2 and 3," is better than "Your stuff sucks, LOL."

But it's not as good as, "You seem to be having difficulty with A, B and C, etc."

Politeness always makes criticism go down better. It helps prevent threads degenerating into a festival of flaming.

Of course the 'Sucks, LOL' kind of posters may well not have anything useful to contribute.

KK is on it. The modelling forums are a special case. There is a massive variety of difffering talent and skill sets. There is also different visions going on. My best effort will never be as good as the mediocre effort of someone else.

my quick addition to this discussion is that posters should also take the time to look and see if the OP is even looking for criticisms.

I know that for me personally, nine times out of ten I'm just showing off my most recent work. I really don't want any negative feedback. if I have something on the model I'm not sure about, I usually post a question about it, and request comments and criticisms. other than that, I'd prefer compliments or nothing at all.

I think criticism is likely, we are all viewing the world from inside our own heads, entirely convinced if something is there, it can benefit from our opinions (just consider the moralising pompous git who started this thread with his tirade...) and that's the ramification of displaying your work publicly. So expect someone to chime in with 'some weathering would bring that tank to life' or 'have you considered reposing the arm, it looks alittle unnatural in that position' since both comments are advice, constructive rather than 'ur tank looks boring ' or 'the arm is suk' which are the rantings of bottom feeding whey faced web-cretins...

And Brian, he don't like them, not one bit sir!

That's a nice bit of work there, the flesh tones are very lifelike!

Is it a modified Chaos Raptor?

The beard is the sukc though, you should have dry-brushed it a bit with dark grey.

You know, I have to agree that the people who post unconstructive criticism are not worht the bandwidth and server space their posts suck up. However, I have found that the ignore button works great for me. I don't use it much, and someone has to really prove to me that they are just not adding anything positive to my dakka experience at all. But when I do use it is always nice to not see those people around anymore.

I would suggest that people who post their work anywhere on the net; be as hardened as you can to what people type about it. Harsh constructive criticism gives you an opportunity to grow that much more in whatever artistic endeavour. But if someone consistantly acts like an ass, DO consider the iggy key. Twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern.

well, ignore is an option, but it will put folks off posting their work or put them off painting and modelling altogether if they get stomped in the early stages of their hobby...

Killkrazy - speaking against Brian Blessed's beard is still punishable by expulsion from the Empire, since this is your first offence however, one week in a holding cell with Russell 'Please frequently punch me' Brand will suffice...
and Brian ain't no choas raptor, he's a Swooping Hawk..man

People get offended too easily. Some view critiques as threatening, that or their fan base does. A couple of times I've pointed things out only to get post right after, "Keep going dude! Ignore then haters!"

...

Retards. If there's something that's keeping a good piece from being a great piece, or a great peace being a superior piece, then it needs to be pointed out.

Critiques are always coached in what you are doing good, and what still needs to be done. If I think nothing can be done because the mini is horrible, or looks like lego and dinosaurs glued together, I just won't leave a comment since it's pretty obvious. Try and tell it in a neutral tone, so you don't come across as preachy or better-than-you-ish. That starts arguments, which shuts people down and they stop listening to you. Mission not accomplished. I have BFA in illustration. I understand color and they way things are supposed to flow. I try and pass that on so others don't have to pay too much for art school to learn it. I'm sure there are many art majors here who often try and pass on what they know.

People need to move past their ego if they are going accept critiques or other forms of criticism. The poster is NOT attacking you (unless you get "LOL YOU SUCK", then it's safe to say they're attacking you), they are offering help that you might not see. Move past emotion and make a better figure. When it's DONE, THEN be proud.

Wow. Brian blessed was ripped in the 80s.

If I look at something, and my first thought is, "Wow. That sucks," or something similar, I just back out of the thread and say nothing.

If, however, I DON'T have that as my initial thought, I'll chime in with advice, if I have any.

Seems to me to only be the right thing to do.

Eric