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Max them out for bodies?

2 units/no points spent/spend points elsewhere in the FOC?

Mounted?

No vehicle, rely on Combat Tactics?

Anti-Vehicle-Melta, M. Melta, Combi-Melta?

Drop Pods-Combat Squad on entry/No?


....Talk about how you run your tacticals and why you think its effective. Is it the strongest these guys can 'represent' on the battlefeild?

I'm thinking about running mine with the melta combination above, no vehicles, and relying on Combat Tactics to set up good shooting opportunities. I'll also be running them en masse I think with a minimum of 4 full squads. Its a cheap way to run them (>190pts per) and they're devestating agaisnt vehicles with 3 potential melta attacks. Not much point in tacticals having CC gear in my opinion because spending points on a powersword/fist means you're still outclassed in HtH against anything that charges you. No need for fists against dreads/MC's since your damage will be negligible and you can simply 'decide' to fall back after the lost combat.

I find the plasma cannon to be well worth it. For 5 points you can make every Tac squad a "terrifying Terminator/Marine killer".

I think in 3rd and 4th edition tactical squads were a crucial means of both getting more bodies on the field, and more heavy weapons.

Ironically, in 5th edition, the edition of greater emphasis on troops, tactical squads have been relegated to flag bearers first. Having to pay a min. of 170 pts to get a usable squad is just terrible.

They crumble just as easily as 6pt guardsmen when engaged with dedicated assault units (see: Orks), and dish out fairly pitiful damage.

I often see tactical squads as cheerleaders for the real damage dealing units (Sternguard, Terminators, Dreadnoughts etc), who should be used in a supporting role, not the other way around.

If I weren't required to take 2 troops and have troops as scoring units, I doubt I would take tactical squads at all.

How they should be equipped really depends on your overall strategy. A drop pod army should probably go with meltas. A razorback company should have a meltagun and whatever heavy weapon in the backfield. A gunline (do Space Marine gunlines still exist?) might go with the traditional las/plas. Etc.

This is very different than say Orks or Chaos, who can rely their troop choices to actually go do something.

Tactical squads should all ride bikes IMO...

10 men in a rhino with a missile/plasma cannon and a melta gun and fist
combat squad as needed

I always take 10 man squads with a rhino and power fist plus I never break them into combat squads. Currently I also take a meltagun since it is so difficult to wreck/destroy vehicles.

If I were to take them in a vanilla SM army I would prefer to take a plasma gun and lascannon. Equipped as such I see them as being the best troop choice for holding objectives. Holding objectives in 5e is not so easy for a lot of armies. Off the top of my head only Chaos has comparable troop choices in terms of holding objectives but they are better geared for assault rather than sitting on top of an objective.

G

You mean there are people out there who don't know how to use Tac Marines?

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:You mean there are people out there who don't know how to use Tac Marines?

Given how they've recently performed in U.S. tournements....I'd say that wouldnt be too much of a stretch.

The most bang for your buck is to ignore getting a power fist honestly. It is not going to make that crucial "make or break" . For 225 points youcan give them a razor back. Razorbacks are the way to go period.



I mean you can't beat them also, two assault cannons are 6 bucks from GW so you can if want to have twinlinked assault cannons for your squads/

I give my tacs Multi-Melta/Melta-Gun or Flamer (depending on points), a Powerfist and a Rhino.

I find the Powerfist to be pretty handy especially snice I play alot against Wraithlords. It's hard to turn down the AP1 of the meltas. The Rhinos let me move toward objectives/the enemy.

I run a mech list. I bring two tac squads kitted as above, two vindicators, a landraider, and assault terms. My army is a medium to short range force so I like having the rhinos to let my tac squad keep up. I rarely combat squad and really only do so if I expect I'll need to get a lot of men on objectives. Also, if my tac squads get assaulted, I like having the ablative wounds for my fist. In my experience, the 10 man tac squad sitting on an obj is a really PIA to dislodge.

If I were playing less of a mech list, maybe a gunline type army, I might bring more footslogging tac marines. But I feel that not having the rhinos leaves them a little vulnerable. It's just not my style.

There is no reason not to take a power fist in a ten man squad.

G

I set my tac squads up with powerfists and usually Meltagun+ML or Flamer+ML and almost always in Rhino's. I love to cruise them up near vehicles and unload with the meltagun while they try to crack the rhino's shell. We jokingly call it 'Rhino-Hiding'. Not because they're hiding, but because a rhino has thick hide. Well ok, I suppose they're hiding as well. Heh.
Of course, this works really well with Sternguard who don't assault. Two can pop their combi-melta's through the fire-access port every turn.
If I play Sicarius, I usually kit one out with meltagun/multi-melta and Infiltrate or Tank-Hunter.
I have been known to combat squad a tac sqd and put the assault half with meltagun/flamer/plasmagun in a rhino and leave the other half back with a lascannon (depending on load-out with the other troops).

Combat squadding is the Best thing you can do to a 10man tactical squad...

... those 5 marines nearly all fit under the focoused blast from a prism tank. . .

Ahh that rule made me happy.

I think it's a serious mistake not to take a powerfist. The damage against monstrous creatures and walkers is hardly negligible. You can take out an armor twelve walker with a power fist just fine or put a wound on a carnifex...or whatever other monstrosity is trying to tear you apart. Granted, that wound might not kill the monstrous creature that turn but it could be the difference between you being able to gun the thing down after combat or not. I find my power fists always make their points back. Combat tactics is great, I love it, but what do you plan to do if that squad catches you on the initiative roll?

As for my tactical squads I like to run them ten man in a rhino with a multi melta, flamer, and sergeant with power fist and combi flamer. I find the multi melta to be the best anti tank that still falls in the "free" category. Granted, the missile launcher has a better range, but since the squad is in a rhino anyway and more often than not I move twelve and pop smoke on turn one I'm usually in the middle of the board on turn two. I find the extra range of the missile launcher to be redundant and the AP 1 of the multi melta seriously increases its tank busting capabilty, even if you aren't within 12". And if you are within 12", well, then all the better.

I like having the ability to dump two flame templates onto a unit before I assault it. Thanks to the new rules about multiple templates under fifth this will even kill a few marines, or reek havoc on orcs. A ten man tactical squad that charges a 30 man mob of orcs after dumping two flamer templates on it actually does a lot of damage. When orcs don't get that charge off they can be in trouble. You won't always win combat, but any stragglers left aren't much of a challenge. And if the tac squad had any fire support from other units before going in, you usually will win combat. Being charged by orcs is an entirely different matter, of course...

The other way I like to run tactical squads is to split them into 5 man combat squads and give them a razor back. One five man team either takes a las cannon or plasma cannon (usually plasma, but las if I find my army list is lacking in armor penetration) and the other five man team has the flamer and the sergeant with power fist and combi flamer. This is a much trickier way to run things but it is fun. The key is using the squads in unison. Hitting the other guy's unit with a plasma template before it gets flamed and charged by the sergeant's team. More often than not I sit and shoot with this army, using the team with the power fist as a counter charge/stall unit. Razorbacks with heavy bolters are very worth it being only five more points than rhinos. The real price you pay is less transport capacity, but if you plan on running things this way it's nice. However, I still like them more with twin las. Popping their transports with my razorbacks while my tac squads dump plasma templates on the passengers who get out.

It depends. In my dreadnought army, I have two issues - long-range anti-tank and anti-horde. Therefore, I field three of them as bare-bones squads, flamer+missile launcher, and give them Razorbacks with HBs. Non-KP missions I combat-squad and keep the ML part back while the flamer/sergeant part goes in the Razorback. I suppose if I had points I might upgrade to lascannons, but the blast marker of the ML is nice in a pinch. The flamers help with mobile crowd control. No weapons on the sergeants - no need for powerfists with 6 dreads roaming the field. If I had points I might consider combi-flamers on the sergeant, but I usually don't. If something dangerous is approaching that I can't handle, I use Combat Tactics and fall back from it, then shoot it more.

In my scout/assault army, I have two squads of Tac Marines. They're armed with meltaguns and multimeltas, as the focus of my army is on anti-infantry. They pair with some multi-melta attack bikes to help tank-hunt. A librarian with Gate can get them around if need be, otherwise they can hold put/advance to the center and do decently. Since the army uses Shrike, I can't use combat tactics, so I give them powerfists.

In my gunline/foot horde army, I have 4 squads. Two are armed with either las/plas or plasma cannon/plas, and two are armed with multimelta/melta. Again, useful tank hunting, and anti-infantry is covered by other squads. The melta sergeants have power weapons, though it's non-optimal (I like the look of it), and the las/plas sergeants are bare-bones. The melta squads advance to the center to take objectives, while the lascannon squads hold back for cover fire and holding my objective.

Powerfists are nice in general, but at 25 points you really have to think about whether or not they're worth it for your army, particularly if you have a good number of tac squads. I mean, three powerfists is 75 points, more than enough for a mm/hf speeder and almost enough for a pred destructor. Especially if your army uses Combat Tactics (rather than a special character option) and has enough anti-big stuff/anti-tank, you may not need that fist. If your army has Stubborn, Outflank, or Fleet, then you probably do need them.

Tacticals are still your bread & butter and you need to control objectives. The new codex though, puts pressure on what your other choices are and so - to me - minimizing costs on tacs is important.

Have been a Salamander player so with Vulkan leading I make them multi-purpose. Rhino (to protect and to get to objectives), Flamer(for anti-hoards) MM (hard to pass up with Vulkan making them TL). I usually just give the Sgt a PW. While the fist is nice, my preference is to put pressure on you to kill the rhinos otherwise we just move up, flame your troops and charge in. My army is designed to advance on you no matter what so the issue is are you ready to deal with 4 rhinos, 3 vindicators, 2 dreadnoughts, 1 landspeeder and 3 attack bikes? usually it is shoot the vindicators and then on turn 2 I let you feel the love of flamers and heavy flamers or some MM love if you are a vehicle monger.

I like Razorbacks but I question running them when 1/3 of the games are KP. Now you are putting out 3 KP for one unit and 5 marines are not that resilient.

I do like drop pods but I think Tacticals are scarry to drop on top of enemies unless we are talking 3+ DP in the initial drop. PF or not, they suck against HTH and will take a lot of fire. Not fun to be within 18" of Dire Avengers.

PF is nice but IMO not an automatic. If you are splitting, PF is - in effect- a 55 pt sergeant just waiting for someone to get 5 wounds on your unit. Also kind of a waste if you get stuck in against something like an ork trukk boyz mob. Say even no nobz... 48 attacks.. 24 hits, 12 wounds. Me thinks your PF is not going to win the combat for you and quite likely is dead anyways.

As far as dreadnoughts... standards are getting 2 attacks and normally one hit and 1 kill. Not earthshattering so it is likely you are going to survive the combat. If someone wants to tie up my tactical for 3 or 4 turns with a DN go for it. 25 points for say 3 tactical squads is 75 points I would prefer to find a better use for than fooling myself that it is going to do anything for me. Before the PF, I would be buying a dedicated transport. For 75 points I can almost get 5 sniper scouts out there or 3 razorback upgrades either of which is a better buy than 3 PF.

First off, if you go tac squad you should go ten guys.

Otherwise stick to scouts for small min point squads.

I really like one squad in a drop pod with a homer. The squad takes a melta, combi melta, and a powerfist. The multi melta is fine but the plasma cannon is great option too.

Two melta gun shots turn one is huge, and if you opponent does not deploy, it's easy to hunker these guys in cover and use the drop pod as a homer.

In anycase, the auto turn one drop pod is one of the stronger tacitics in the game IMO, so getting the most out of it is important.

It's not a perfect for all armies but for most SM armies it's a huge force multiplier.

The second tac squad is best with a razor back, plasma cannon and breaking up into two combat squads. I like at least a powerfist in the combat squad for the razor back and often opt for at least a melta gun.

Strong multi use squad, that finds a niche in just about every mission.

Pete

I want drop pods to come in on turn 1 since I run a counter assault army. The enemy tactical squads might wreck or destroy some of my tanks/transports but then I am in a great position to charge them. I am just not a proponent of drop pods, except for dreadnaughts. I am sure pods are still quite good tactically speaking but they don't work for my style of tactics.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:You mean there are people out there who don't know how to use Tac Marines?

Given how they've recently performed in U.S. tournements....I'd say that wouldnt be too much of a stretch.

I'm willing to bet that someone as confident about tac marines as Nofasse might be using them wrong. And Deadshane couldn't have said it better. They are enigmatic, I'm figuring them out. I like my config I've got. But I didn't land on it right away. And it didn't look like anyone had them figured out by the time baltimore hit.

Green Blow Fly wrote:There is no reason not to take a power fist in a ten man squad.

G

I was going to be snarky and 'fix' your post like the kids do, by taking out the word 'not'. But I felt like that might be a bit too much.

There are actually 25 reasons not to take a power fist. My experience with tourney level 5th ed. Is that the CC units that are out there are REAL dyed in the wool murderous killers. Nobody comes halfway. The units that are interested in CC don't care that you have 2 power fist attacks. They just don't. The units that you can beat in CC, you can beat without a power fist.

Walkers and MCs... you should be able to control those through deployment, mobility, and meltaguns/shooting phase.


Back to the OP question. This is what I'm running and why.

2x 10 man, meltagun and missile launcher.... combi-melta if there is room.

naked razorback if mechanized, naked drop pod if pod assaulting.

I combat squad in every mission except annihilation.

In annihilation I don't combat squad, and so I can't fit in my razorback, but thats ok. As the only mission without objectives, I don't really need to move around.

In a drop pod you might say something like "you are going to drop so close to your opponent, shouldn't you be 10 strong and have a pfist?' the trick is I'm not going to be dropping close to my opponent, if I'm even in the drop pod. The two drop pods are just shills to kick my 50% drop pod assault up to 3 so I can unload 30 sternguard or 20 sternguard and an ironclad, or 3x ironclads. Tacticals are always going to be second wave support for me. So i keep them with guns that can fire long range, and with guns that can help them fend off a blocking attempt by a transport. The drop pods of tacticals are going to be trickling in, in safe spots, and setting up for scores.

If all of the upgrades you guys like were free... of course I'd take them. But I think my rig, based on my playstyle, is the most points efficient.

I run 5 full squads, one with a rhino transport. All five have missile launchers, 3 have flamers, one has a meltagun, one has a plasmagun. I tend to combat squad all units when its an objective game. My missile marines stay back, while the special weapon and sergeant squads motion foreword or set and prepare for charges. It's been a fairly successful strategy so far, especially in combating hordeish armies. Five missile launchers gives a good amount of discrete antitank firepower and enables me to destroy an opposing light infantry squad from across the board in a single turn. The rhino enables me to have a fast(er) element of my basic troops, and provides for mobile cover nicely. It also gives me a little under 1000 points for the rest of my force.


I tend to deploy in a strictly denied flank, and I prefer second turn. My army is a standard turtle gunline with a lightning fast assault element consisting of shrike and standard assault squads with jet packs. Backing them up in rotation are multiple dreadnaughts, sternguard, predators, or terminators. Or some combination of the above.

I do pretty well depending on what I fight. Dark angels and nidzilla give me fits, but I can handle most other armies.

My General Set up is this


10 man w/ H. Plasma (It's just awesome all around imo), Meltagun, P.F.


Razorback ( DozerBlade +5) 250 points


Pretty much a swiss army squad.


edit:

Oh the dozer blade thing; No one ever seems to take these for some reason. My FLGS has lots of rubble and ruins, just generally good terrain. Why move around something when you can just run over it.

10 Tacs, Multi Melta, Flamer, Rhino. Take the middle. Maybe something else on the Sgt if I got the points. With 15 I change to Meltagun and Combi-Flamer. I don't usually take Power Fists on them.

I'm doing 5 men in a razorback, one with melta gun and one with power fist, the other 5 stay back, one carrying plasma cannon

I think that a tac squad is just that a tactical unit. You have to build the squad toward towards the tactic you are taking with your army.

Shep wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:You mean there are people out there who don't know how to use Tac Marines?

Given how they've recently performed in U.S. tournements....I'd say that wouldnt be too much of a stretch.

I'm willing to bet that someone as confident about tac marines as Nofasse might be using them wrong. And Deadshane couldn't have said it better. They are enigmatic, I'm figuring them out. I like my config I've got. But I didn't land on it right away. And it didn't look like anyone had them figured out by the time baltimore hit.

Green Blow Fly wrote:There is no reason not to take a power fist in a ten man squad.

G

I was going to be snarky and 'fix' your post like the kids do, by taking out the word 'not'. But I felt like that might be a bit too much.

There are actually 25 reasons not to take a power fist. My experience with tourney level 5th ed. Is that the CC units that are out there are REAL dyed in the wool murderous killers. Nobody comes halfway. The units that are interested in CC don't care that you have 2 power fist attacks. They just don't. The units that you can beat in CC, you can beat without a power fist.

Walkers and MCs... you should be able to control those through deployment, mobility, and meltaguns/shooting phase.


Back to the OP question. This is what I'm running and why.

2x 10 man, meltagun and missile launcher.... combi-melta if there is room.

naked razorback if mechanized, naked drop pod if pod assaulting.

I combat squad in every mission except annihilation.

In annihilation I don't combat squad, and so I can't fit in my razorback, but thats ok. As the only mission without objectives, I don't really need to move around.

In a drop pod you might say something like "you are going to drop so close to your opponent, shouldn't you be 10 strong and have a pfist?' the trick is I'm not going to be dropping close to my opponent, if I'm even in the drop pod. The two drop pods are just shills to kick my 50% drop pod assault up to 3 so I can unload 30 sternguard or 20 sternguard and an ironclad, or 3x ironclads. Tacticals are always going to be second wave support for me. So i keep them with guns that can fire long range, and with guns that can help them fend off a blocking attempt by a transport. The drop pods of tacticals are going to be trickling in, in safe spots, and setting up for scores.

If all of the upgrades you guys like were free... of course I'd take them. But I think my rig, based on my playstyle, is the most points efficient.

Uhm, a 10man squad giving the leader a Pfist, the Pfist will pretty much always make its points back.

With how the assault rules are, a somewhat tough unit assaults you, you can place your wounds on the 9 fodder guys. The enemy has to to 10 wounds against WS4 T4 3+ save before you lose the equivalent of 2-3 lascannon shots in close combat.

Without a fist, a daemon prince or some chaos termies could drop in, and your unit will only be scratching at em. A pfist could easily take out half the daemon prince's wounds on turn 1. If you don't break, he could die. Same with carnifexes and dreadnaughts and most other super things.

If they're assaulted by a unit so "Super melee" that you don't do 25 points of damage with that fist, then you're probably playing wrong and not whittling down the enemy super squad the right way.

"EASILY" take out half of a Daemon Prince's wounds?

Doubtful, thats both of two attacks hitting on 4+, not rolling any 1's to wound and the Daemon Prince not making an invulnerable save. You're being just a little optimistic there for my tastes.

I'd say its more likely that 1 or ZERO wounds are inflicted before the tac squad routes or is destroyed.

The other thing that I personally dont like about powerfists in the squad is that they encourage you to charge in order to get an extra attack...which is detrimental to the other 9 marines in the squad in not allowing them to take bolter shots OR a heavy weapon shot. (or even two plasma gun shots if plasma is your thing) All of which dish out damage without putting the squad in harms way (i.e. assault)

I think its actually better (and cheaper) to prepare a Vet in a way that COMPLIMENTS the rest of the unit. What are you going to do? Charge into combat with your power fist? Or stand and do what marines actually do best....stand and shoot hitting with str 4 on 3's (rather than 4's in close combat) with the marines and instead blasting away with a couple of plasma gun shots of of a combi-bolter? Oh yea, and dont forget to throw a heavy weapon firing into the mix as well....

Two Plasma-gun shots are comperable to 3 powerfist attacks on say a T5 Daemon Prince.

Two shots...hitting on 3's wounding on 2's AP2

VS.

Three swings...hitting on 4's wounding on 2's

both attacks have defenses, Invuln saves, cover vs shooting, going last vs. fist but the thing is, attacking with the fist ignores what the REST of the squad really is good at....shooting.

I think there's a REALLY good arguement for NOT taking a fist in a TAC squad and I totally agree with Shep's comment that there are 25 reasons not to take P.Fists in command squads...if you have 4 command squads in an army I could give you 100 reasons not to take one.

It gets harder to guarantee that 100 pts in powerfists can get their points back, but I bet a landspeeder with a Multi-melta can get its points back in spades...with one shot.

It's better to charge with your tactical squad than be charged. Tactical Marines have bolt pistols now and can shoot before they charge... which is the equivalent of three attacks on the charge plus one hits on a 3+. The power fist is too good not to take for 25 points and will get you 1-2 wounds in close combat on the charge against other equivalent units. It's probably better if they don't have to be in a position to charge but that will not always be the case. Without the power fist there are just too many units out there that can rip them in close combat through attrition. I see a lot of SM players using a lot of tactical squads in their armies. It's part of the advantage of playing SM to have a lot of scoring units and in these cases they will most likely have to fight in some assaults.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's better to charge with your tactical squad than be charged.

Thats a blanket statement which happens to be incorrect in MANY circumstances. Especially if you're a proponent of plasma weaponry and have a fearsome anti-infantry heavy weapon in the squad. Rapid Fire bolters can be more effective than your powerfist charge in many circumstances. Only the Sargeant has any CC ability to speak of...the rest of the marines are mediocre at best in CC and much better at shooting when equipped with plasma/melta weapons.

Is it better to CHARGE 10 genestealers with scything talons...or shoot them?
Is it better to CHARGE 5 Thunderhammer Terminators....or shoot them?
Is it better to CHARGE Harlequins....or shoot them?
Is it better to CHARGE Incubi/witches....or shoot them?

Sorry, but Powerfists arent any sort of no-brainer. I can think of many times where I'd MUCH rather have a combi-plas/melta/flamer or P. Pistol rather than a fist. A power fist is a weak way to fight back against any of the units above, you'd be better off trying to maneuver for good shots and keeping OUT of CC in the first place...if you get confronted with a dedicated HtH unit, what does it matter taking out 1 or two guys? Better to save those points for more useful things than a CC weapon in a unit that sucks in CC in the first place.

Heres a list of things you can get for 50 pts that can potentially be more useful than two power fists.

Heavy Bolter Attack biker (55pts for a MM one)
Speeder
Techmarine to bolster some terrain for your many Tac squads to sit in.
Razorback with pintle SB
Land Speeder Storm
Sargeant Tellion (kills your two p.fists before they ever get there!)
Ten points shy of a whole predator
almost HALF the points of a friggin Dreadnought.

Doenst sound that smart to liberally pass around P.fist's anymore now does it?

I am thinking of a squad of tactical Marines with Dante and Corbulo close by.

Anyways there will be circumstances where it is better to stand and shoot then receive the charge, but often this means your squad might get shot at first by other enemy units. It just depends on the particular situation. There are no cut and dry answers. Power fists do make the squad more versatile.

Me, I will always take the power fist. There are other places to cut corners. Your example above is simply taking money out of the pot then putting them back in again. I can make many such examples in regards to other items. I can understand that others don't want to use those points but I just have a hard time giving up a S8 attack that ignores armor saves. My current 1850 point BA list has seven power fists.

G

I agree with Shep.