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So after reading mechanicum, which is a fantastic book, I have come to the conclusion the emperor is in fact an old one. What do i base this on well. If you havent read the book there is a bit of a spoiler here (but not a huge one). But in mechanicum it is shown that the emperor of Humanity fought and wounded the Dragon C'tan in the time of the crusades, (think I have my dating right there, might be out by a few hundread years or so). It was definatly the first millenium. The C'tan had arrived on earth, wounded from a great battle and had insisted the town it was near give it a virgin female each day to consume, the last one left was the kings daughter, she was being taken to the dragon when a great knight (the emperor) came across them, learnt the story of the dragon, fought it, wounded it, realised it couldnt be killed and so trapped it (on mars). where he knew it would foister the machine god myth which he could us to his advantage when he arrived on mars and was seen as being the machine god incarnate by the mechanicum. Now this is
A a long long long life, even for a genetically engineered human.
and B shows an ability to see into the future, so he is def not human. We also know he has tremendous psychic abilities, he also seems to have other strange powers, for instance he helas a palladin knights damaged leg at the very start of mechanicum, and just generally all who see him appear to be overwhelmed and just love him instantly when they see him.

Now on top of this, he genetically created the primarchs, unified a country then a galaxy and is the galaxies biggest athiest. All of this points to him being an old one, why. Well the old ones didnt believe in gods, they new how the universe was created, how it worked and trustyed in science and technology, much like the emperor. The old ones created the races (eldar, ork, human) to help fight the C'tan, the by product was the chaos powers. The emperor above the ret of humanity seems to understand the nature of chaos already oin the horus books, long before the other primarchs do even. The eldar and the orks had old ones watching over them (mork and Gork where apparantly old ones, and the eldar "gods" where also old ones). Now the emperor may have seen that subtle manipulation of a species leads to failure (the eldar created slanesh, the orks, well, they became what they are now). It is possible that the emperor saw the tide was turning against them in the war against the necrons, and so decided to take a more active hand in the development of the only species left with a chance to fight the C'tan, humanity. When he realised how close humanity was getting to the warp he banned "Witch craft" (psykers) having learnt from the mistakes with the eldar. The great crusade was an atttempt to prepare Humanity for the coming war with the necrons. But again Chaos messed with his plans, and now he is in stasis unable to warn his children about the impending disaster.

That is actually one of the more interesting 40k ideas I've run into.

It makes sense. I mean, instead of being benevolent for the sake of being benevolent, The Emperor feels terrible for the failures of the Old Ones, and is simply seeking to save the last race he feels that he can.

I'll agree with this completely. In fact, since it makes so much sense, I think this is my new outlook on the Emperor.

You think too much kid.

On the real though, that's a of a good theory. Congrats, you've made another convert. You don't happen to play word bearers, do you?


The only real issue I can think of is: How could Horus deceive him and then wound him?

Maybe...Horus is an Old One as well?

Hahah, that's reading entirely too far into it.

Perhaps The Emperor's misguided faith in humanity and trust in Horus allowed him to be wounded? It's an idea.

Mercurial wrote:You don't happen to play word bearers, do you?

I don't know about the OP, but I most certainly do.

Mercurial wrote:You think too much kid.

On the real though, that's a of a good theory. Congrats, you've made another convert. You don't happen to play word bearers, do you?


The only real issue I can think of is: How could Horus deceive him and then wound him?

first of all at 30 think I am not a kid . but yes I do think to much, (although this idea came in a flash of inspiration while I was reading mechanicum).

On the horus point, who says the old ones where infallible, They didnt see the outome of producing warp sensitive species like trhe eldar, didnt see the coming of chaos, which ultimatly became there downfall. he emperor didnt see the removal of the primarchs, at creation either, so it seems that chaos can cloud his sight. In the case of Horus he didnt see it coming because he couldnt.

Or on the other hand, the enemy of the Old ones was the Necrons, not Chaos. And in fact, while chaos brought about the downfall of the old ones, they also as a by product helped weaken the C'tan, Maybe the emperor realises that Chaos is a necessary by product of having species such as humanity, it cant be conqured, or destroyed, it can only be controlled to n extenet. Chaos needs humanity as much as humanity needs chaos (with out chaos you stagnate, ideas stop flowing e.t.c). Chaos needs humanity because it needs people to give it the psychic power of there belief.

Now If the remaing old ones have decided that chaos is necessary, then it may have been some greater plan of the emperors for horus to turn. If chaos helped defeat the C'tan before, maybe they are necessarry now, and so the traitor legions where a necessarry evil for the greater good. (somthing the imperium state to defend for instance sacrificing 1000 souls to keep the beacon going).

oh and as an aside, I dont play 40K, I just read the background, cant get into the system (am a fantasy player).

Aaaand he's at it again.

Great point.

Though I will agree, you think entirely too much.

have been at it again, thinking that is, posted this topic on the black library forum under spoilers, just to see if it gets a reaction, if it gets removed we know I am onto somthing and have given the whole game away . feel free to go and agree with e therre . The benifit of a nights sleep got me thinking a biit clearer about this,

The emperor tried to expunge religion, what does chaos need to exist, belief, namly religious factions worshipping these powers as a god, with no religion, no worship, chaos powers weak and cant affect the material world.

Seeing as how the creation of the old ones failed the first time round, of course he would want to improve on there creation, hence the primarchs and astartes, now because he doesnt want to seem inhuman to terrans he does it gradually, genetically enhancing humans first in the vestiges of genetic experiments, when really he could have made the primarchs from scratch, but the end result is the same, by the time humanity is ready to go bak out, he has a super soldir behind him for when the necrons appear.

I could prob go on but my brain is starting to hurt.

You know I clicked on this topic thinking 'yeah right', but that was actually well reasoned & made a whole lot of sense...

My only question then being, can the Old Ones assume any form they choose? Im assuming thats got to be the case if The Emperor, Gork & Mork, & the Eldar Gods are Old Ones.

I wouldnt say I was a convert to this idea... but Im definitely taking it as a possibility until proved otherwise.

you have some very convincing ideas ginric99. just one question though, how can gork and mork be old ones if they are warp entities and cannot exist in the corpereal realm?

"There is a theory that the Ork Gods, Gork and Mork, were two of the last Old Ones. Gork being the Ork God of strength and Mork being more cunning than his opponent, this also leads to the idea that the Eldar Gods Kaela Mensha Khaine and the Laughing God are the same beings as Gork and Mork. Kaela Mensha Khaine is a god of strength as is Gork and the Laughing God was more of a trickster than Khaine, much like Mork. Being the Old Ones they would have created races such as the Eldar and Orks. These two figures are believed to be the last two Old Ones to have survived."

taken from wikipedia, this theory has been around for a while.

If you read the history of the old ones, it doesnt say they werent psychic, or couldnt use the warp, in fact they travelled through the warp (or the immatirium) with out the use of starships. this suggests they are not corporeal beings as we see them, but are somthing else, so yes they could take any form.

Where the problems came is that the numrous species they created to be attuned to the warp where not as high minded as the old ones, so there passions, needs, ambitions, all the dark thoughts they had twisted the at the time neutral immaterium into the warp as we know it now, The powers of chaos where born out of this desire, they did not this desire come about.

Now the idea that gork and mork can not exist in the corpral realm, where is that proven, I mean ok so the orks and other races believe they are gods who exist in another realm, but if that is how they wished to be seen of course the old ones would foister this belief.

Interesting theory – however, unless GW has changed history (which they have done from time to time) The Emperor is not an Old One. Pull up a chair, Let me put on my smoking jacket and we can sit around the fire…
(Abridged version)
Chaos Gods getting stronger, feeding on the souls of the departed human and other races as they die and their souls – or warp spark is set free to roam in the warp. Some magically (or psychically) gifted souls burn brighter in the Warp, some even have mastered the ability to move their spark from one deceased vessel (dead body) to a new one (reincarnation).

Unfortunately the power of the Chaos Gods was getting stronger and stronger. Making it difficult for the shamans, magi, seers etc of the Olde Worlde to float about freely in the warp and find a new suitable host.
Now in spite of the differences between the different factions (High Elves don’t care much for Dark Elves ya know) all the magi begin to determine that they will not be able to out run the Chaos Gods indefinitely. They also realize that said Chaos Gods will eventually overrun everything they know. Darkness falls, dogs and cats living together – basically the worst parts of the bible.

So they all get together and have a nice big Jim Jones moment. They all reincarnate into one being. This being lives 30-40k years as a man, learning everything he can, every aspect of humanity, its good, its capability for evil, every facet of humanity. And I think it was sometime soon after the Dark Age Of Technology. When Man was at his darkest time He stepped up, delivered his message of order and light and with all of humanity in disarray and darkness they welcomed him with open arms.

Then he did the Primarch thing, Chaos did the stealing of the Primarch things and my guess is you guys know the rest.

I thought the old fluff was that the Emperor was the summation of reincarnated souls of a number of shamans in Anatolia.

I do like the Old One theory though.

The problem with the shaman fluff is that it goes back to the realms of chaos books, which I think is automatically outdated by the creation of the necrons, and the resultant subtle changes this had on the history of the creation of chaos. I read the realms of chaos books when they cam out and had considered this.

I also would debate a couple of other points

1 if the emperor is a reincarnated man, then how did this man, manage to defeat a C'tan, in battle, I am sorry I dont care how injured that c'tan was, this is a being that devoured old ones, your tellig me it cant deal with a poxy human, no matter how advanced.
2. Once defeated said man takes C'tan to mars, anouther planet, with no space vessel or anything. Now only 2 species of the materium could travel through space like that, C'tan and, yes old ones.

Now you can come up with convoluted theories, arguments, conjecture, but surley it is better to look at this logically.

Ok so the only race we know of that could ipossibly injure a C'tan was either an old one or a chaos demon. A powerfull chaos demon.
We know th emperor is not a demon, if he is the galaxy is doomed (unless GW are going to bring back malal).
So the only possibility is he is an old one (and please dont say no he is a very very very powerfull human, beacuse you have no basis on that other then if he is human he must be powerfull to defeat a c'tan, that isnt evidence of his humanity).

When you add this to the other evidence I have listed, and take every piece of evidence, not seperatly, but in totallity, it becomes really hard to come up with any kind of opposite argument to the emperor being human. but feel free to try (I know many will). Yo may even convince me .

lol wut?

ginric99 wrote:The problem with the shaman fluff is that it goes back to the realms of chaos books, which I think is automatically outdated by the creation of the necrons, and the resultant subtle changes this had on the history of the creation of chaos. I read the realms of chaos books when they cam out and had considered this.

Fluff isn't "outdated" until something changes it. Until something says that the Emperor wasn't created through the shamanic souls he has been, officially.

1 if the emperor is a reincarnated man, then how did this man, manage to defeat a C'tan, in battle

Psyker.

2. Once defeated said man takes C'tan to mars, anouther planet, with no space vessel or anything. Now only 2 species of the materium could travel through space like that, C'tan and, yes old ones.

Psyker.

Ok so the only race we know of that could ipossibly injure a C'tan was either an old one or a chaos demon. A powerfull chaos demon.

Or a psyker.

and please dont say no he is a very very very powerfull human, beacuse you have no basis on that other then if he is human he must be powerfull to defeat a c'tan, that isnt evidence of his humanity).

Alpha level psykers can snap titans in half, and the Emperor was the most powerful psyker to ever live.

If the Emporer is an Old One, why would he hate the Orks and Eldar, and yet not be constantly trying to wipe all Necrons from the Galaxy?

If he is an Old One, he would hate the Necrons more than Chaos and since his race created Orks and Eldar, he would have some sort of attraction to them.

Plus, why is he the last Old One alive?

PS: Written while Drunk, in case of spelling or other issues, I will check on this later. Maybe.

Theres a couple of holes in your "theory" based on GW own fluff. First of all, going back some, the only reference to the Emp past is that a butt load of Shamans killed themselves in order to be reboarn as the Emp.....now, that means he's not a bio-product in the real sense of the term....like Space Marines! It also means he had a definate human origin.

Now, I appreciate that the book Lost and the Damned is no longer cannon as such, but its the only "history" of the Emp that GW has currently released, so as such its probably the most "reliable".

Your theory on the Old Ones being Atheists and relying on Tech over more esoteric practices is completely at odds with current GW fluff. Have you looked at the Necrons Codex?

In short, the Necrons were a race of relatively short lived beings, the got jealous of the seemingly endless lifetimes of the Old Ones and went to war....the war raged and the Old Ones were winning because of their knowledge of and use of the Warp, Webway etc...it was in fact the Necrons who relied heavily on Technology....not the other way round! It wasn't until the Necrons discovered the Ctan that they eventually became as they are, but preceeding that even't the war swung in favour of the Necrons with the aid of the Ctan....thats when the Old Ones created the "races" of Orks, Humans and Eldar...amoungst others I guess....

Last but by no means least is the point raised by Dreadwinter....if he is an Old One, why the Xenophobic attitude towards the other races?

ok my statement about them being an athiest race relying more on science and technology is wordred a bit wrong, I was not trying to get at the idea of them being a tecnocracy (I know the necrons where that) it was more highlighting the fact that they understood the true nature of the universe, and so didnt have to beilieve in gods. Especially when compared to the necrons, who worshipped the C'tan as such. On the other hand, the sheer genetic manipulation they showed in creating the new races could indicate a scientific knowledge and approach.

As for the xenophobic atitude. First of all orks, where created to be the foot soldirs of the war, and then exploded even faster then the old ones could have forseen.. Since the war with the necrons they have now almost taken a step backwards along the evolutionary chain. However if the Emperor old one decided to protect humanity then dealing with the ork infestation would not concern him.

If you read the heresy books, both horus and Fulgrim indicate that the emperor wondered at times about the approach they crusade was taking, and that he sometimes regretted his actions around certain civilisations and races. However it also suggests that Chaos had more of a hold in the galaxy then we realise, almost every civilisation we read about him expunging seems to have contained "witches", or worshipped some darker power. And the only contact we see a primarch having with the eldar is Fulgrims peacefull (well at first until the chaos sword corrupted it) meeting with Eldrad.
Also remember it was a period of expansion and conquest, and the old ones had failed. As one of the last survivng old ones the emperor may have considered the Eldar a lost cause (because of there corruption and fall) and the Orks a mistake (for the reasons above). Although I doubt he could have made peace with orks if he had wanted to.

And I cant believe the utter destruction of his species wouldnt have had an effect on his outlook on the other species of the galaxy.

During the great crusade the necrons where still in hibernation, and Chaos (which was what ultimatly brought the downfall of rthe old ones) was a strong force. If the emperor wanted to see the human empire expand and become big enougb that a war with the necrons would be winable he would have to deal with the immeddiate threat, Chaos.

Finally havent said he is the last old one alive, there are suggestions that gork and mork are actually old ones, in some form. And that 2 of the eldar gods (also old ones) are also still alive. If there are still old ones alive then I imagine they would be in hiding,

Finally havent said he is the last old one alive, there are suggestions that gork and mork are actually old ones, in some form. And that 2 of the eldar gods (also old ones) are also still alive. If there are still old ones alive then I imagine they would be in hiding

They're suggestions with no evidence at all in support of them, though.

You could just as easily say Gork and Mork are eldar, or Khaine and the Laughing God are enslavers, or etc etc.

Essentially, its a fantasy game.....so the Emp can be whoever or what-ever you want him to be.....there is no right or wrong, no correct argument or flawed argument.

GW has some amazingly large holes in their fluff, that one has to wonder if they as a company actually care.

The Emp serves as a focal point for one faction of the game, nothing more....and he's unlikely to play a more active role in the WH40K universe in the forseable future.

I guess if you really want the Emp to be an old one as part of a game plot, then go for it.....I get the impression from your posts (statement aimed at the OP) are more aimed at starting a new "movement".....either way good luck with that

Interesting theory but I doubt it, I don't think one of the Old Ones would be as closed minded as the ruler of the Imperium, I don't think he would allow the Inquisition to continue their atrocities (maybe the Daemon Hunters), I always saw the Old Ones as the only truly "good" entities in the 40K universe. Then again the Emperor is half-dead and wired to a chair so it would be difficult to determine his actual views of the universe.

Read some more fluff on the emperor. He had the technical know-how to build a webway gate, which is based on the technology of the old ones. He was also the only one powerful enough to keep it closed, whereas Malcador the Sigillite, the most powerful human psyker ever next to the Emperor and Magnus, died in a matter of hours from the strain while the Emperor went to go fight Horus. Hmmm...

ginric99 wrote:first of all at 30 think I am not a kid .

Haha, I'm in college, technically I'm the kid, call it a term of endearment if you like =P

Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Humans were not, in fact created by the old ones?

I dislike the shaman story, but I'm not sure I can go along with the old one theory either. IIRC the warp is the antithesis of the c'tan, thus the old ones created species more attuned to the warp in order to fight them. Now, if the old ones were already super-psychics like the emp. why would they need to create these new species?

I like your theory, the problem is that the old ones created humanity as a "control" group. This means the old ones had a hands-off policy in the progression of mankind.

They also created other races, such as the orks and the eldar, to hold a more direct offense against the c'tan.

I also strongly believe in a relationship between the eldar's bloody handed god and laughing god being gestalts to the ork's gork and mork, respectively.

The races that the old ones had a more direct hand in also figuratively achieved racial perfection to a certain extent. The eldar had there big hoo-ha and then skrewed it up. But the orks are possibly even more perfect than the eldar when you think about it.

I actually had the absolute exact same idea, when reading Xenology.

To my knowledge, the old "shaman" theory was retconned.

I think this is more than a coincidence, both Xenology and Mechanicum are official lore and point to this same thing.

For anyone wanting to check, it's towards the end of Xenology. The exodite stone tablet, with four tiers:

Tier 1: the Old Ones.

Tier 2: their creations

Tier 3: the Necrons.. and implicitly, the War in Heaven.

Tier 4: the forms the few surviving Old Ones were "imprisoned" in:

a) a laughing/crying harlequin Mask-the Laughing God/Mork.

b) a bloody crushed hand-Khaine/Gork.

c) the missing fragment, which is a sketchy representation of a human fetus.

Also, someone said that humans weren't created by the Old Ones? It's stated in 2 places in the Necron Codex: once by an Eldar Farseer, "the lesser creations of the Old Ones" and once by the Deceiver "couldn't imagine my surprise at seeing your kind and the Krork scattered all over the place."

I'm positive this is going to be official. It fits too damn much.

WOW. This thread has been dead since FEBUARY! Way to be a Thread Necro.

Just because a thread is "old" doesn't mean it doesn't still have relevance.

Sometimes, its better to resurrect an old thread then start a new one to say exactly the same thing.....

Delephont wrote:Just because a thread is "old" doesn't mean it doesn't still have relevance.

Sometimes, its better to resurrect an old thread then start a new one to say exactly the same thing.....

This. Thanks for the support

I was reading Xenology, and that paragraph kind of hit me. On top of the information from Mechanicum.. I was curious since I haven't stumbled upon this theory in the various Warhammer 40k lore haunts, did a google search, stumbled upon this.

It was old but not old enough-and what was the point in rebooting a new thread to basically say the same thing?

ginric99 wrote:So after reading mechanicum, which is a fantastic book, I have come to the conclusion the emperor is in fact an old one. What do i base this on well. If you havent read the book there is a bit of a spoiler here (but not a huge one). But in mechanicum it is shown that the emperor of Humanity fought and wounded the Dragon C'tan in the time of the crusades, (think I have my dating right there, might be out by a few hundread years or so). It was definatly the first millenium. The C'tan had arrived on earth, wounded from a great battle and had insisted the town it was near give it a virgin female each day to consume, the last one left was the kings daughter, she was being taken to the dragon when a great knight (the emperor) came across them, learnt the story of the dragon, fought it, wounded it, realised it couldnt be killed and so trapped it (on mars). where he knew it would foister the machine god myth which he could us to his advantage when he arrived on mars and was seen as being the machine god incarnate by the mechanicum. Now this is
A a long long long life, even for a genetically engineered human.
and B shows an ability to see into the future, so he is def not human. We also know he has tremendous psychic abilities, he also seems to have other strange powers, for instance he helas a palladin knights damaged leg at the very start of mechanicum, and just generally all who see him appear to be overwhelmed and just love him instantly when they see him.

Now on top of this, he genetically created the primarchs, unified a country then a galaxy and is the galaxies biggest athiest. All of this points to him being an old one, why. Well the old ones didnt believe in gods, they new how the universe was created, how it worked and trustyed in science and technology, much like the emperor. The old ones created the races (eldar, ork, human) to help fight the C'tan, the by product was the chaos powers. The emperor above the ret of humanity seems to understand the nature of chaos already oin the horus books, long before the other primarchs do even. The eldar and the orks had old ones watching over them (mork and Gork where apparantly old ones, and the eldar "gods" where also old ones). Now the emperor may have seen that subtle manipulation of a species leads to failure (the eldar created slanesh, the orks, well, they became what they are now). It is possible that the emperor saw the tide was turning against them in the war against the necrons, and so decided to take a more active hand in the development of the only species left with a chance to fight the C'tan, humanity. When he realised how close humanity was getting to the warp he banned "Witch craft" (psykers) having learnt from the mistakes with the eldar. The great crusade was an atttempt to prepare Humanity for the coming war with the necrons. But again Chaos messed with his plans, and now he is in stasis unable to warn his children about the impending disaster.

Good conept.But it's HERESY !!!The Emperor is not xeno scum.