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I keep hearing about how Daemons have suddenly become "brutal", "are winning tournament"' and what have you.

I put a list together, sure it looks good. But I clearly don't see how the army really meshes.

Anywho.

So what I was hoping to get from this post, is to gain an understanding of what's going into these supposed winning daemon lists?

If someone could point me to lists/batreps/tactica crucial to understanding how Daemons are winning, that'd be just fantastic.

I'm thinking about cannibalizing my WHFB daemon army.

So yeah.

Little help please?

Since posting this, I've done a lot of reading and re-written my list. Keep in mind I play in a fairly compy environment.

275 - Thirster: Might, Blessing.
125 - Herald of Khorne: Chariot, Might, Icon.
125 - Herald of Khorne: Chariot, Might, Icon.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.

128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
100 - 5 Horrors: Bolt, The Changeling.
95 - 5 Horrors: Bolt.
95 - 5 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Soul Grinder: Phlegm.
160 - Soul Grinder: Phlegm.
160 - Soul Grinder: Phlegm.

1999pts/53 models.

Team A, play offensive.
Thirster, Herald, all Crushers, all Grinders.

Team B, play defensive.
Herald, all the troops.

Thoughts? You know, now that I've put some effort in.

Hi

Check out the batreps by this guy over at WS:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153826

Not only are the excellent batreps (if only WD could do them like this!), his tactics with Daemons is excellent.

He stated in one that he has stopped taking an all Tzeench army as it is too powerful.

HTH

If you want to be competitive with Daemons then here is a list of some useable units:

Fateweaver, Oracle of Tzeentch
Great Unclean One

Bloodcrushers
Flamers

Plaguebearers

Soul Grinders

A lot of competitive Daemon players tend to combine Fateweaver and a lot of Bloodcrushers. For troops, Plaguebearers are best. They aren't going to kill anything though, so you might as well make their units minimum size and take more of them (for objective purposes). To get some extra anti-tank and anti-horde into the list, they add Soul Grinders with Phlegm.

I actually read a lot of his batreps when I was browsing around Warseer. (eesh, I almost called it Portent.)

I'll go back and re-read the Khornate ones.

Placement of my Icons. Should I have them on the Chariots or Bloodletters? I don't particularly want to splash Nurgle, as I already own all the troop choices, once I take them off of 25mm square.

Phlegm is better than Tongue, right? Or should I mix it up with like 2 Phelgm, 1 Tongue?

For the possibility of seeing a LR/monolith @ 2k.. yes, definetely.

Also.. swap a horror sqaud for a 3man flamer squad? Breath of choas just looks too useful to pass up.

Mm. I'm not really scared of Necrons, yet alone a Monlith.

I mean really. The only thing in the Necron army that can actually kill the Grinders are either a) Particle Whip or b) Heavy Destroyers, c) 345 glancing hits or d) mystery veil rear shots.

I'll just fleet on in and crush the Monolith with dreadnought ccws.

It just occurred to me that I can squash any tanks with dccws. I don't think Tongue is really that useful.

I'm also looking for advice on unit division in Daemonic Assault.

Its a good list. I would not give Icons to heralds, they could die too easily. Also, you might want to think about taking skulltaker instead of one of the heralds. The only thing you cant reliably kill is AV 14, and everyone had a problem killing that, so I would say the list is not lacking anti-tank.

Mmm.

T5 W4 3+/5++
vs
T4 W8 5++

I think it's actually pretty close.

The Herald is far more resilient than the Letters, but it's 4 wounds vs 8. But if I gave the Letters my Icons I'd have to beef them up a bit.

might be worth trying to get some free points and splash out on skulltaker in a chariot, with give you alot more impact for your points

Skulltaker is 160 with Chariot.

Herald of Khorne on Chariot with Icon and Strength is only 125.

And then I've got to replace the Icon. Means I've got to find 60pts to include him. This list is so tight for points and I'm not comfortable dropping the troop choices to any smaller size. Nor do I want less Juggernauts.

No sale on Skulltaker.

If you look under batreps on this site for my name you will find a ton of daemons battle reports. My current tzeentch list which I used for a campaign from 1250pts - 2000pts. I also put up the army list and battle reports for the army list I used at the Baltimore GT.

Your list is going to suffer against mechanized armies. If you draw eldar or Tau in a kill point game you are basically going to be screwed, you have one unit that can catch up to a fast moving vehicle.

Grinders are great for popping tanks in hth, the problem is that depending on what tank they popped whats coming out is going to kill you. A pure Sisters of Battle list would more than likely eat this build. The sisters want you to get close and get all bunched up.

Horde orks are going to give you a run for the money, but you would fair okay vs. a nob biker list.

Your list is plenty killy in hth. You would be much better off imho replacing your khorne heralds with tzeentch heralds, plus it might be a bit more fluffy since you are using tzeentch troops. I would swap a unit of horrors or a unit of bloodletters to add in some flamers. The flamers are easy kp but almost always get their points back. I would also suggest freeing up some points to put the instrument and fury of khaine on each of the crusher units to maximize wound allocation rules.

Tongue is an interesting one. What exactly do you need the phlegm shot for? Between letters, bloodthirster, and bloodletters you don't really need any more ap3 killing. What you need desperately is ranged anti-tank. Because of your list composition I would probably either go with naked grinders or tongue. At baltimore 2 our of 5 games the tongue really helped, the other three it wasn't really needed. But getting 3 shots off, even at bs 3 usually means you can pop one tank a turn with them.

Warmaster: I see you play pretty-much Tzeentch/Slaanesh. I really only wanted to run light Tzeentch for controlling armour and didn't want to touch Slaanesh at all.

I was thinking Phlegm, because it's a large blast. It eats large units. I mean, I've got no idea what I should be doing against horde orks anyway. Apart from dropping my Grinders on thier faces because they don't do too well against AV13+. (I play mixed orks.)

It amuses me that you're directing me to return my list to it's previous state.

It was basically the same list.

Except it had Tzeentch chariot caster heralds, plaguebearers and flamers.

It was basically this..

Thirster: Might, Blessing.
Herald: Chariot, Bolt, Second spell, multiple targets.
Herald: Chariot, Bolt, Second spell, multiple targets.

3 Crushers.
3 Crushers.
3 Flamers.

8 Bearers: Icon.
8 Bearers: Icon.
12 Letters.
5 Horrors: Bolt, The Changeling.
5 Horrors: Bolt.

Grinder: Phlegm.
Grinder: Phlegm.
Grinder: Phlegm.
1997.

...

I think the best idea might be to just trade the Phlegm for Tongue and try to swing some Flamers.

Like, I don't really want to play with Tzeentch Heralds. I want killy. Not shooty.

Though, if I didn't already have a Khorne/Tzeentch WHFB army to eat, I'd have gone with Tzeentch Daemons.

So how does one deal with Hoarde Orks? I know there's a couple touring my tournament area.

Ok, so I've had a massive rethink. In fact, about 2 hours of reading threads and battle reports.

275 - Thirster: Might, Blessing.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Breath, Master, Legion.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Breath, Master, Legion.
I figure with the Tongues and Bolts, I can shred infantry instead. Or just more Bolts?

170 - 4 Crushers: Fury.
170 - 4 Crushers: Fury.
Had 20pts left.
105 - 3 Flamers.

128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
100 - 5 Horrors: Bolt, The Changeling.
95 - 5 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
I figure that a) I need to pop tanks and b) it comes with a S6 flamer.

1999pts with 51 models.

No icons at all. I think this might be a good idea.

Primary: Thirster, Flamers, Crushers, Crushers, Grinder, Grinder, Grinder.
Secondary: Herald, Herald, Letters, Letters, Letters, Horrors, Horrors.

I like this list a lot more.

Any thoughts?

@Obeisance: I started with a tzeentch/slaanesh list that worked very nicely. I then was playing a skittles daemon list (a bit of everything). Lately I was experimenting with the mono-tzeentch list just to see if it would be effective and fluffy at the same time.

You'll find that the flamer template is better against horde armies than the phlegm. Especially since you will want to get the grinders in hth as soon as possible. With your list you will want to get the grinders down first and close to the enemy. Against orky horde I would actually try to go first if at all possible. Only because you can actually drop at about 13-18 with the grinders and not get assaulted. Bring in the crushers and thirster behind the grinders and hope the grinders can hold the line for a turn. Suicide drop the flamers on the loota's and hope you can weather a round of shooting. If the ork player goes first I would go for a very risky assault with the grinders to go for template hits and to force him to deal with them asap.

Tzeentch heralds do not do well in rapid fire range or assault range. With their jetbike move it's very easy for them to get behind tanks to deliver 1 str 8 and 3 str 5 shots into rear armor. You really don't ever want them close enough to an enemy squad for them to be able to use the breath template. If you really want to do the breath template, drop we are legion and pick up the sword, that way you at least have a power weapon, 5 str 4 pw hits isn't all that bad, although their bs of 2 really does hurt.

The 5 man horror squads are going to die very quickly. If you want them to survive a round I would combine the two units and go with 1 of 9.

I always like my armies to have an odd number of dropping units so I can pick the waves better, I also try to never go in with my primary/secondary already planned out. I like to wait until I see my opponents deployment before deciding anything. If you get into a habit of thinking "this is my a team" you start to miss out on opportunities.

I think the list right now would do fine, but I think you might like it a bit more if you switched to bolt on the heralds and combined the two horror squads into one 9. If you really wanted to get crazy you could pull the 2 furies off of the crushers and use the 27 points you saved off of combining the horrors (and your extra point) and add in a 3 man unit of screamers .

Hmmmmm! I've been sitting here toying with the math for a bit.

Advice taken. List re-written.

275 - Mr Thirsty: Strength, Blessing.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Bolt, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Bolt, We Are Legion, Master of Sausages.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.
105 - 3 Flamers.

128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
168 - 9 Horrors: Bolt, Changeling.

48 - 3 Screamers.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.

2000pts exactly.

Is that ENOUGH troops?

I swear this is like the only forum that actually discusses Daemon stuff. Everywhere else seems to blow.

I would say go for it and try it out. You should be fine on troops, you may just find that your bloodletters and horrors spend a lot of time doing push ups .

If you can get him to post in here Centurian99 really likes the huge bloodcrusher squad, he's been running an 8 man for a while now. If you really seem to be getting stomped by orks a lot you could try that out. The use on the screamers will be definitely variable, and if you start running into the situation where the kp they are going to give up is hurting you then drop em for icons and upgrades for the crusher squads. I was just amused when I saw that your extra points would buy the 3 man squad.

Edit: Realized my suggestions put it back to the one-iteration-before list. I think it's stronger, YMMV, though I like swapping Breath for Bolt on the Heralds.

Warmaster wrote:I would say go for it and try it out. You should be fine on troops, you may just find that your bloodletters and horrors spend a lot of time doing push ups .

If you can get him to post in here Centurian99 really likes the huge bloodcrusher squad, he's been running an 8 man for a while now. If you really seem to be getting stomped by orks a lot you could try that out. The use on the screamers will be definitely variable, and if you start running into the situation where the kp they are going to give up is hurting you then drop em for icons and upgrades for the crusher squads. I was just amused when I saw that your extra points would buy the 3 man squad.

Absolutely I'm in favor of the 8-Bloodcrusher squad.

I started out running 4 bloodcrushers +skulltaker on a juggernaut. Hard-hitting, but after the Chicago GT, the unit attracted too much attention for what was really sub-optimal hitting power. Against certain units (i.e. monstrous creatures/wraithlords) skulltaker and the juggers were king, but their vulnerabillity to dreadnoughts and generally low numbers made me move to taking two squads of 4 Bloodcrushers at the Baltimore GT.

My theory was that I could still have them gang-up on enemies together, but if one squad was charged, the other one would still be free to maneuver and assault. Good in theory, but in actual gameplay, what I found was that the a 4-man squad of crushers, even with full upgrades to spread out wounds, was too easily focused on and wiped out. Once that happened, the other squad could potentially kill another unit, but then my opponent would focus on the second squad and wipe it out.

Lately, I've been running a full squad of 8, with full upgrades, and the squad is simply brutal. It soaks up amazing amounts of enemy fire, and there's pretty much nothing in the game that will charge them alone (well, a few, like nob bikers and 10-man terminators). As a side effect, the large footprint of an 8-man squad has proven to be an advantage in every game I've played.

My current list skeleton goes like this (at 1500-1850.)

Bloodthirster /w might
Bluescribes (if points allow)
8 Bloodcrushers
1 or 2 squads of 3 flamers
12+ bloodletters /w icon
1 medium-sized squad of horrors (usuallly 9, for fluff)
1 small-med sized squad of plaguebearers
2 naked grinders

I've run this list against a variety of enemies, and haven't found a list that it couldn't at least deal with.

Naked grinders?

Isn't tongue or phlegm essential?

That list looks lacking in armour-busting..

Hm. I suppose I could exchange a Herald for Bluescribes and take another unit of Horrors.

...

Drop both Heralds and Screamers, take Blue Scribes and 2x8 Horrors with Bolt, Changeling. Thirster gets a flute.

280 - Thirster: Strength, Instrument, Blessing.
130 - The Bluescribes.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.
105 - 3 Flamers.

128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
128 - 8 Letters.
151 - 8 Horrors: Bolt, Changeling.
156 - 8 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.

1996. 56 models.

Feels like enough troops. HQ feels fine.

I wouldn't say tongue and phlegm are essential, it's just that they a fairly cheap upgrade. Soul Grinders really seem to shine when you are getting them stuck in against things. As long as you arent going after dreadnaughts and mc's they are amazing (btw that's what the bloodthirster in the above list is for). They also provide a very valuable 4+ cover save to units deep striking in behind them.

You can rely on hth to pop tank's. You just have to know that whatever was in the tank is going to get to assault you back or get a round of rapid fire. The crushers and bloodletters do an alright job at cracking av10 rear's and the thirster and 2 grinders can crack everything else. You use the flamers early on to shake and stun the vehicle's and every now and then get an immobilize.

I disagree on relying on HtH to pop tanks. Against "Tanks" sure, but against Skimmers you're just screwed.

Oh I definitely agree which is why my grinder's have tongues and I use heralds and daemon princes with bolts .

But I didn't want to give you just my viewpoint .

An interesting side to that is a skarbrand list, with his re-rolls to hit I think you could reliably pop skimmers in hth. That might be the next list I work on, just for kicks, either that or a nurgle themed one.

I disagree with those who think HTH isn't sufficient to kill tanks. You can basically divide armored targets into three categories:
AV14
Relatively stationary
Skimmers

AV14 targets are why I've got two grinders and a thirster. Between the three of them, I'm pretty confident of being able to deal with multiple land raiders...it only really fell apart when the secondary came in, AND I was facing 5 land raiders at 1850.

Relatively stationary targets (anything that's moving 6" or less, and isn't AV14 all around) can be relatively easily killed by almost anything in HTH that's assault-capable.

Skimmers are the toughest, but also the most expensive. If they're not moving more than 6" a turn, they fall into the prior category. If they're moving more than 12" a turn, they lose shooting effectiveness.

I used to run grinders with phlegm, tried them with tongue, but 90% of the time, I'd rather have the grinders run and take advantage of the fact that they've got fleet. Sure, there are some times when it would be nice for them to have a shooting attack, but I've never actually lost a game because of that.

I agree that you will pop some tanks, my problem is that you are going to take it up the pants with whatever gets out of said vehicle, if we are talking about transports that is.

Basically you have to be able to survive whatever it is that just got out of their tank. Now granted it's not easy to take out a bloodthirster or that monster unit of bloodcrushers but there are a few things in the game that will put a hurt on them.

Wow - facing 5 land raiders?

Is that in a tournament?

Sounds cheesy/beardy/minmaxing...

What did they do, put a 5 man scout squad inside each of the LRs to make them count as scoring?

;-)

tallmantim wrote:Wow - facing 5 land raiders?

Is that in a tournament?

Sounds cheesy/beardy/minmaxing...

What did they do, put a 5 man scout squad inside each of the LRs to make them count as scoring?

;-)

Just playtesting. 4 Land Raiders was actually more effective...the squads inside became actually useful at that point.

Well, I'll just run the Grinders with Tongue and see how it goes.

Worst case scenario, I buy another 75pts worth of something.

Phlegm would be good on entry would it not?

You cannot assault on your first turn, but putting down 3 str 8 pie plates would be pretty cool!