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Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

I went with Khorne/Tzeentch due to models I already own.

Centurian99 wrote:
Absolutely I'm in favor of the 8-Bloodcrusher squad.

I started out running 4 bloodcrushers +skulltaker on a juggernaut. Hard-hitting, but after the Chicago GT, the unit attracted too much attention for what was really sub-optimal hitting power. Against certain units (i.e. monstrous creatures/wraithlords) skulltaker and the juggers were king, but their vulnerabillity to dreadnoughts and generally low numbers made me move to taking two squads of 4 Bloodcrushers at the Baltimore GT.

My theory was that I could still have them gang-up on enemies together, but if one squad was charged, the other one would still be free to maneuver and assault. Good in theory, but in actual gameplay, what I found was that the a 4-man squad of crushers, even with full upgrades to spread out wounds, was too easily focused on and wiped out. Once that happened, the other squad could potentially kill another unit, but then my opponent would focus on the second squad and wipe it out.

Lately, I've been running a full squad of 8, with full upgrades, and the squad is simply brutal. It soaks up amazing amounts of enemy fire, and there's pretty much nothing in the game that will charge them alone (well, a few, like nob bikers and 10-man terminators). As a side effect, the large footprint of an 8-man squad has proven to be an advantage in every game I've played.

I've played around with both and in 1850 lists, I must say 3 man crusher units + Herald on Jugger is pretty nasty. Herald on Jugger usually isn't a good buy (chariots are so cheap!) but if you kit out the unit like;

HoK on Crusher
Crusher
Crusher w/ Instrument (there's a reason here)
Crusher w/ Rending

You can spread/allocate over 4 unique models that have 2 wounds each...they tend to stick around. 3 Crushers + Herald can handle most anything..even Dreads when Herald + Rending crusher are in there.

8 Crushers just seems like lash bait.

Burning Star IV wrote:Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

Not really. I'm singularly unimpressed with almost everything Slaanesh. Daemonettes simply don't hit hard enough, and their fleet just lets them get into ineffectual assaults quicker. Those squads are really too small. KoS isn't bad, but I'd rather spend a bit more and get a thirster, or save points and get a GUO.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
I've played around with both and in 1850 lists, I must say 3 man crusher units + Herald on Jugger is pretty nasty. Herald on Jugger usually isn't a good buy (chariots are so cheap!) but if you kit out the unit like;

HoK on Crusher
Crusher
Crusher w/ Instrument (there's a reason here)
Crusher w/ Rending

You can spread/allocate over 4 unique models that have 2 wounds each...they tend to stick around. 3 Crushers + Herald can handle most anything..even Dreads when Herald + Rending crusher are in there.

8 Crushers just seems like lash bait.

8 Crushers seem like lash bait, but they start out so close that it really doesn't matter. Plus, the lash player only has so many lashes...if you drop an 8-man crusher squad, a thirster, and a pair of soul grinders, they simply can't deal with everything.

Centurian99 wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:
I've played around with both and in 1850 lists, I must say 3 man crusher units + Herald on Jugger is pretty nasty. Herald on Jugger usually isn't a good buy (chariots are so cheap!) but if you kit out the unit like;

HoK on Crusher
Crusher
Crusher w/ Instrument (there's a reason here)
Crusher w/ Rending

You can spread/allocate over 4 unique models that have 2 wounds each...they tend to stick around. 3 Crushers + Herald can handle most anything..even Dreads when Herald + Rending crusher are in there.

8 Crushers just seems like lash bait.

8 Crushers seem like lash bait, but they start out so close that it really doesn't matter. Plus, the lash player only has so many lashes...if you drop an 8-man crusher squad, a thirster, and a pair of soul grinders, they simply can't deal with everything.

Well, you're adding several points to the demon player without allocating to the CSM player. I normally don't add other units into the equation when discussing specific troops (You can always add to the equation to make a specific unit look better). For example for those pts;

2 Grinders, 8 Crushers, and a BT is around 900ish

8 Oblits, 2 Demon Princes w/ Lash is around 900ish


In addition, Demons are too random to say 'I'll have one BT, 8 Crushers and 2 Soul Grinders to drop'. 33% of the time you won't and they'll come in unit by unit, the other 66% of the time you are forced to DS 3 very large footprint units (2 Grinders + 8 Crushers) + a BT. The only thing alluring about a deep unit of Crushers are two things; 1) There be several wounds in there and 2) You can build your DS circle towards the enemy to crawl forward. On the flip side, DS becomes very dangerous due to footprint, it makes your Grinders/BT harder to place and if they can stall (lash, Dread, Enemy Soul Grinder)...you've lost several points. Nothing beats watching 8 Crushers surround an Ironclad and sit there for several turns.....

Cheers,

Ryan

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Well, you're adding several points to the demon player without allocating to the CSM player. I normally don't add other units into the equation when discussing specific troops (You can always add to the equation to make a specific unit look better). For example for those pts;

2 Grinders, 8 Crushers, and a BT is around 900ish

8 Oblits, 2 Demon Princes w/ Lash is around 900ish

Actually, its worse than that, because those units are facing off against the entire Chaos force. Regardless, there's still enough there that the Chaos force has too many targets to engage. That's one wave of my 1500 force, btw. At 1750-1800, I add a squad of horrors with the bluescribes to that wave.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
In addition, Demons are too random to say 'I'll have one BT, 8 Crushers and 2 Soul Grinders to drop'. 33% of the time you won't and they'll come in unit by unit, the other 66% of the time you are forced to DS 3 very large footprint units (2 Grinders + 8 Crushers) + a BT. The only thing alluring about a deep unit of Crushers are two things; 1) There be several wounds in there and 2) You can build your DS circle towards the enemy to crawl forward. On the flip side, DS becomes very dangerous due to footprint, it makes your Grinders/BT harder to place and if they can stall (lash, Dread, Enemy Soul Grinder)...you've lost several points.

The footprint thing is really a non-issue, and has actually worked to my advantage in almost every game I've played (It's never been a negative, just sometimes not important). And the Daemonic Assault rules are themselves a benefit (as well as a hindrance), because the opponent doesn't know what half is coming in.

If you treat Daemonic Assault like its a flaw you need to overcome, you're unnecessarily crippling yourself.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Nothing beats watching 8 Crushers surround an Ironclad and sit there for several turns.....

Now who's changing the rules. Against Ironclad spam, you run an entirely different deployment, and roles change. Against single ironclads, you simply send the nearest bloodthirster or other greater daemon at them.

Centurian99 wrote:



If you treat Daemonic Assault like its a flaw you need to overcome, you're unnecessarily crippling yourself.

from one daemon player to the other... AMEN!

im definetly gona try an 8 man Crusher squad. are 2 8man crusher squads necessary? unnecessary?

Especially since its got respectable range & you dont need to worry aboout BS3.

Id say phlem vs front AV < Bolt of Tzeenetch vs rear armor on a horror squad.

You drop within 6" hope for the best & kane it in the rear. Then with some luck, youve got instant terrain blocking a good arc of fire. Although possibly a detriment with some horrors.

Blue Scribes or Caster Chariot Herald?

Which actually leaves me 29pts to tweak. =/

Centurian99 wrote:
Actually, its worse than that, because those units are facing off against the entire Chaos force. Regardless, there's still enough there that the Chaos force has too many targets to engage. That's one wave of my 1500 force, btw. At 1750-1800, I add a squad of horrors with the bluescribes to that wave.

The footprint thing is really a non-issue, and has actually worked to my advantage in almost every game I've played (It's never been a negative, just sometimes not important). And the Daemonic Assault rules are themselves a benefit (as well as a hindrance), because the opponent doesn't know what half is coming in.

If you treat Daemonic Assault like its a flaw you need to overcome, you're unnecessarily crippling yourself.

Now who's changing the rules. Against Ironclad spam, you run an entirely different deployment, and roles change. Against single ironclads, you simply send the nearest bloodthirster or other greater daemon at them.

Well, as I said before, that's why I don't like adding units to the mix when discussing one specific troop type. However, I still politely disagree with two of your points;


1. Footprints are usually an issue on tables I play. Perhaps I play on tables with more impassable terrain then you do, but DSs are no small risk on tables in my area. Add terrain to the fact that you may not get the 1st turn (Which allows speedy armies to make your DS even more dangerous)...and I would say an unit of 8 Crushers + 2 Grinders is definitely a dangerous footprint.

2. Daemonic Assault is a flaw to overcome. Even more so when you start making very large, expensive units that you may not get until 4th turn...and then only move 6" when they show (If they don't mishap).


Just a clarification as well, I wasn't speaking about Clad spam. With a unit of 8 Crushers they only need 1 Ironclad to effectively neuter the entire 320 pt unit.

Burning Star IV wrote:Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

Daemonettes are the weakest units in the book (Perhaps fighting it out with BoN in a non-Epi list). I'm convinced at one point they were going to allow them to DS---Assault....but then decided against it. I can't decide why else they cost so much.

Interestingly, just crunched the numbers on Daemonettes vs Bloodletters for assaulting power.

Using space marines as the benchmark that you want take out, on a charge a 168 point unit of 12 daemonettes would cause 9.8 wounds against the SM squad - so pretty much a wipe out.

The bloodletters (10.5 of them) would see 14 wounds against the same squad - so even losing a 1.5 daemons due to the points difference, the bloodletter unit is still more deadly (against tough combat units).

So - a win on a charge for the BLs. It then comes down to the other skills and stats.

Daemonettes get fleet - which is very useful indeed when you have no shooting capability! Acquiescence is handy coupled with initiative 6. BLs will attack last against units in cover, however they do get I5 on the first turn.

BLs are able to weather fire better however with their T4.

So - all in all, I would prefer to field BLs than Daemonettes, however they do have a use - assaulting units in cover, fleeting to make it across any difficult ground.

LOL - for a unit to on average annihilate a full strength marine unit is pretty cool. Of course the daemonettes are also very deadly.

Of course you have to get to them first!

Oh yeah - further crunching.

A BL unit would likely have to be within rapid fire range to attack a unit of tactical marines, whereas a unit of daemonettes could be outside it with fleet.

This would see the marines (assuming crack missile and 3 BLs could be hit by the flamer) cause an average of 4.5 wounds to the BLs and 2.5 to the daemonettes.

This would mean that the reduced assaulting units would cause 8 wounds for the BLs and 7.7 wounds for the daemonettes - much more in line.

The daemonettes would definitely be the better choice in this case if the marines were in cover - especially a bunker, as they would still get to strike first, whereas the marines in a bunker would get to strike down a further 1.2 bloodletters on average before they struck - meaning that the BL would be down to 4.8 daemons and cause only 6.4 wounds on average.

LOL thanks for anyone sticking with me to this point!

;-)

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Burning Star IV wrote:Khorne? Idk, I like Slaanesh...

KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)
KoS, Unholy Might, Soporific Musk (220)

12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)
12 Daemonettes, Icon, Instrument (198)

7 Seekers, Icon (144)
7 Seekers, Icon (144)

Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)
Grinder, Upgrade to taste (160)

2000 pts. on the nose.

Nasty.

Daemonettes are the weakest units in the book (Perhaps fighting it out with BoN in a non-Epi list). I'm convinced at one point they were going to allow them to DS---Assault....but then decided against it. I can't decide why else they cost so much.

That's odd. YMMV, but I feel Daemonettes, in numbers great enough, are incredible. With 4 attacks on the charge, and a nullification of an opponent's charge bonus, they're nasty. My 6-model units (depending on how bad ya get shot) repeatedly tear up dedicated assault units and shooting units alike. And Keepers are just as lethal... 7 attacks on the charge? H&R? Fleet? MC!!?? Come now. 250+ for a thirster seems ridiculous in comparison.

Burning Star IV wrote:

That's odd. YMMV, but I feel Daemonettes, in numbers great enough, are incredible. With 4 attacks on the charge, and a nullification of an opponent's charge bonus, they're nasty. My 6-model units (depending on how bad ya get shot) repeatedly tear up dedicated assault units and shooting units alike. And Keepers are just as lethal... 7 attacks on the charge? H&R? Fleet? MC!!?? Come now. 250+ for a thirster seems ridiculous in comparison.

I have no real issue with the KoS and didn't mention it in my post. I only mentioned Daemonettes.


Daemonettes can't take a round of shooting from anything. Unless you have the beast USR, if you DS you are forced to take a round of shooting.

There is more than enough killy stuff in the Demon dex, your troops should be objective squatters/tough. IE Plaguebearers.
Daemonettes fill no role.

Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Burning Star IV wrote:

That's odd. YMMV, but I feel Daemonettes, in numbers great enough, are incredible. With 4 attacks on the charge, and a nullification of an opponent's charge bonus, they're nasty. My 6-model units (depending on how bad ya get shot) repeatedly tear up dedicated assault units and shooting units alike. And Keepers are just as lethal... 7 attacks on the charge? H&R? Fleet? MC!!?? Come now. 250+ for a thirster seems ridiculous in comparison.

I have no real issue with the KoS and didn't mention it in my post. I only mentioned Daemonettes.


Daemonettes can't take a round of shooting from anything. Unless you have the beast USR, if you DS you are forced to take a round of shooting.

There is more than enough killy stuff in the Demon dex, your troops should be objective squatters/tough. IE Plaguebearers.
Daemonettes fill no role.

You didn't bag on the Keeper, but someone above you did.
Sorry if there was any confusion!

tallmantim wrote:Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

Swarms are unable to claim objectives

tallmantim wrote:Oh yeah - further crunching.

A BL unit would likely have to be within rapid fire range to attack a unit of tactical marines, whereas a unit of daemonettes could be outside it with fleet.

This would see the marines (assuming crack missile and 3 BLs could be hit by the flamer) cause an average of 4.5 wounds to the BLs and 2.5 to the daemonettes.

This would mean that the reduced assaulting units would cause 8 wounds for the BLs and 7.7 wounds for the daemonettes - much more in line.

The daemonettes would definitely be the better choice in this case if the marines were in cover - especially a bunker, as they would still get to strike first, whereas the marines in a bunker would get to strike down a further 1.2 bloodletters on average before they struck - meaning that the BL would be down to 4.8 daemons and cause only 6.4 wounds on average.

LOL thanks for anyone sticking with me to this point!

;-)

Some good number crunching. One non-numerical part of the equation is the weight of mech, as most marine players experienced at facing demons will stay buttoned up in Rhinos until they can rapid fire a unit away. Demons struggle with mech....so I count on troop units I place to receive a good round of fire.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Well, as I said before, that's why I don't like adding units to the mix when discussing one specific troop type. However, I still politely disagree with two of your points;

1. Footprints are usually an issue on tables I play. Perhaps I play on tables with more impassable terrain then you do, but DSs are no small risk on tables in my area. Add terrain to the fact that you may not get the 1st turn (Which allows speedy armies to make your DS even more dangerous)...and I would say an unit of 8 Crushers + 2 Grinders is definitely a dangerous footprint.

Depends on what you're seeing. I've generally not found it to be an issue, even on tables with lots of impassable. If there is lots of impassable, then it may actually be advantageous to hold the 8-man squad in reserve, and place icons on the table instead.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
2. Daemonic Assault is a flaw to overcome. Even more so when you start making very large, expensive units that you may not get until 4th turn...and then only move 6" when they show (If they don't mishap).

I wrote a bit poorly. It's not JUST a flaw to overcome...it's also a potential advantage.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Just a clarification as well, I wasn't speaking about Clad spam. With a unit of 8 Crushers they only need 1 Ironclad to effectively neuter the entire 320 pt unit.

If you're not talking clad spam, than a Daemon player who lets an ironclad get into assault with Bloodcrushers deserves to have his 360 point unit neutered. (With full upgrades, the squad is 360, and why wouldn't you give a squad like that full upgrades for wound allocation purposes if nothing else.

tallmantim wrote:Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

AgeofEgos said it right...nurglings can't claim objectives.

tallmantim wrote:Interestingly, just crunched the numbers on Daemonettes vs Bloodletters for assaulting power.

Using space marines as the benchmark that you want take out, on a charge a 168 point unit of 12 daemonettes would cause 9.8 wounds against the SM squad - so pretty much a wipe out.

The bloodletters (10.5 of them) would see 14 wounds against the same squad - so even losing a 1.5 daemons due to the points difference, the bloodletter unit is still more deadly (against tough combat units).

So - a win on a charge for the BLs. It then comes down to the other skills and stats.

Daemonettes get fleet - which is very useful indeed when you have no shooting capability! Acquiescence is handy coupled with initiative 6. BLs will attack last against units in cover, however they do get I5 on the first turn.

BLs are able to weather fire better however with their T4.

So - all in all, I would prefer to field BLs than Daemonettes, however they do have a use - assaulting units in cover, fleeting to make it across any difficult ground.

LOL - for a unit to on average annihilate a full strength marine unit is pretty cool. Of course the daemonettes are also very deadly.

Of course you have to get to them first!

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. Daemonettes are only S3, so against MEQs on the charge, 12 would get 48 attacks, 24 hits, 4 rends, and 4 regular wounds that could be saved.

For a 1 to 1 comparison, the easiest is to compare 8 Daemonettes to 7 Bloodletters, as they're the same point cost.
Vs. MEQs
Daemonettes get 32 attacks, 16 hits, 2.66 rends, and 2.66 regular wounds, so past the saves, you kill 3.56 MEQs
Bloodletters get 21 attacks, 14 hits, 9.33 power weapon wounds.

That's on the charge, of course. If they get charged, the effectiveness of bloodletters goes down slightly as they're S4, but they're still better than daemonettes by a wide margin. The Daemonettes only real advantage is fleet. With S3 and T3, they're pretty much bait, even in very large numbers. The lowest I'd consider taking would be a 15-18 man squad of Daemonettes.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

tallmantim wrote:Wouldn't nurglings make excellent objective sitters?

3 wounds makes them more resilient to things like bolter fire vs plaguebearers - although blasts would be very nasty to them as swarms.

Swarms are unable to claim objectives

Ahhh

Great - thanks - hadn't realised that before.

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. Daemonettes are only S3, so against MEQs on the charge, 12 would get 48 attacks, 24 hits, 4 rends, and 4 regular wounds that could be saved.

My appologies - completely messed up rending. I thought it was a roll of 6 to hit that was rending - obviously much less effective when it is only 6 to wound.

That's what happens when you play Eldar vs Marines mainly - not too many rending options (other than rangers).

Decision made.


280 - Thirster: Might, Blessing, Instrument.
110 - HoT: Chariot, Bolt, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery.

160 - 4 Crushers.
160 - 4 Crushers.
105 - 3 Flamers.

185 - 10 Bloodletters: Chaos Icon.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
128 - 8 Bloodletters.
134 - 7 Horrors: The Changeling, Bolt.
129 - 7 Horrors: Bolt.

160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.
160 - Grinder: Tongue.

1999pts and 56 models.

Is what I'm building. Hoo-rah.

Is that supposed to be 4 flamers or 3? Your points listed next to it says 3 . Build it and try it out. The nice thing is alot of suggestions you can do without modifying models if you choose to at a later point(ie tounge, phlegm, combining the crusher squads). Good luck and let us know how it does.

Ooops! *corrects*

And thanks. I shall.

Daemons have taken my focus away from my 90% done Orks. x.x

I figured I'll have Daemons done in a month or so. As there's a 2000pt tournament in may. Means I should have enough time to get some games in before the event too.

I can't believe how retardedly expensive Soul Grinders are. I mean wtf. 85AUD.

I've got some Batreps for Khorne Daemons.

Not a bad list, and themed which is nice. For game-play purposes, I might suggest swapping the 10-man Letter unit for 10 Plaguebearers with Icon and Musician, at 180, but I understand if you want to keep it to Khorne/Tzeentch. I'd switch the instrument from the Thirster to the Crushers, though. More likely to tie, better for wound allocation shenanigans.

It's not that I don't want to play with Plaguebearers, it's more about the fact I already own two blocks of 20 Bloodletters. I've already stripped them off square bases and onto round.

40kenthusiast- I've actually read/skimmed your reports on Dakka. I've looked at ALL the daemon reports on this site.

So now that the list is done, I'd really like to discuss tactics.

I think I pretty-much refuse flank. Focus my army on one side of the bored to deny his other side action.

Past that, I'm not sure.

How close do I deepstrike? etc.

Basically, I'm looking for play tips.

Centurian99 wrote:
Depends on what you're seeing. I've generally not found it to be an issue, even on tables with lots of impassable. If there is lots of impassable, then it may actually be advantageous to hold the 8-man squad in reserve, and place icons on the table instead.

I wrote a bit poorly. It's not JUST a flaw to overcome...it's also a potential advantage.

If you're not talking clad spam, than a Daemon player who lets an ironclad get into assault with Bloodcrushers deserves to have his 360 point unit neutered. (With full upgrades, the squad is 360, and why wouldn't you give a squad like that full upgrades for wound allocation purposes if nothing else.

Hey Centurian,

I typically don't play with Icons, so can't really discuss the strat for keeping Crushers reserve. However, that's a pretty expensive unit to keep in reserve until possible Turn 4---Which means at least 5th until assault (The game may end that turn as well!). DS is always a potential advantage, as in DSing solo princes for those far away objective squatters, etc. However, not being able to plan on the units you want at the start (33% of the time) is never an advantage.

Getting a Dread or two to support Marines is not difficult. Put him near units that are important and let the Crushers wipe out a unit (Which they will at 8 strong). Then he charges in. If you don't DS your 8 Crusher unit near units/objectives that are important...well then that isn't too terribly important for the Marine player .