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Hey, I'm looking in to the possibility of playing an all-terminator (or mostly anyway) army, probably under the Deathwing rules. My google-fu has proved inadequate in finding pictures and articles on these oh-so-rare armies. What I did find mostly pertained to the Deathwing, and while I like the schemes and the fluff is awesome, it wouldn't be very unique; it would seem that the Deathwing are the ultrasmurfs of first company armies.

I already know where I'm getting the models so no worries. I am however undecided on chapter. Front runner right now is Imperial Fists but I'm not huge in to yellow.

Soooo... anyone have thoughts/tips/links?

Well, whatever chapter you pick, you're stuck with the Deathwing Rules to represent First Company. If you look through the P&M Blog archives there are some others (I think there's definitely an UltraWing, and I thought they may have been a FistWing in there)

For a Fisrtwing army your stuck with the Deathwing Rules (which meands the DA codex so no new toys like 3++ stormsheilds). Personally im fine with that (as I play DA) but for all the other SM chapters it seems to have been an overseight for the new SM dex...kind of silly really.

Casper wrote:For a Fisrtwing army your stuck with the Deathwing Rules (which meands the DA codex so no new toys like 3++ stormsheilds). Personally im fine with that (as I play DA) but for all the other SM chapters it seems to have been an overseight for the new SM dex...kind of silly really.

Not really an oversight as GW believes and has stated that(fluffwise), aside from the Deathwing and Ravenwing, the Battle Companies, along with support from the other support companies(1st + 6th-10th), are how Marines go to war.

That said, a good 1st and 10th army is still a nasty way to go with the new Marine 'Dex.

Hmm... I suppose I could get away with a few paltry troop choices and make the rest of the army termies, but Deathwing seems to be the way to go as far as rules. The only thing that bothers me is that you're limited to half-squads, though the way I understand it most people do this anyway to maximize assault cannons.

I'll throw in a couple lascannon or multi-melta dreads for tank hunting, and I've always wanted to try my hand at some scratchbuilt Mk. I Land Raiders.

Anybody have the lowdown on how these guys play, or perhaps a link to a tactica?

You know, Fluff-wise, First Company includes power armor, too (i.e SM Sternguard / Vanguard, BA Veteran Assault Squads).

Personally, I'm gearing up for a Veteran Company with only a handful of Termies, with primarily power armor and Dreads forming the core.

That's great and all, but this guy wants to play an all Termi army.

We just had a thread where a bunch of people said you can't play Deathwing if your models aren't painted as Deathwing because that's powergaming.

Mercurial wrote:Hey, I'm looking in to the possibility of playing an all-terminator (or mostly anyway) army, probably under the Deathwing rules. My google-fu has proved inadequate in finding pictures and articles on these oh-so-rare armies. What I did find mostly pertained to the Deathwing, and while I like the schemes and the fluff is awesome, it wouldn't be very unique; it would seem that the Deathwing are the ultrasmurfs of first company armies.

I already know where I'm getting the models so no worries. I am however undecided on chapter. Front runner right now is Imperial Fists but I'm not huge in to yellow.

Soooo... anyone have thoughts/tips/links?

Yes.

Play Deathwing.

There are no other first company armies anymore.

lord_blackfang wrote:We just had a thread where a bunch of people said you can't play Deathwing if your models aren't painted as Deathwing because that's powergaming.

I missed this one. I saw Hellfury's paintjob thread, but not the one where it's "a bunch of
people" because if it's that very same thread "a bunch more people" said that the paint
scheme didn't matter, but the models did.

I didn't say it was the majority. But 20% is not an insignificant number. I'd think long and hard about doing an army if every 5th person I play against was going to give me grief about it.

If you only play a handful of people it is not significant.

G

lord_blackfang wrote:We just had a thread where a bunch of idiots said you can't play Deathwing if your models aren't painted as Deathwing because that's powergaming.

Fixed

Flagg07 wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:We just had a thread where a bunch of idiots said you can't play Deathwing if your models aren't painted as Deathwing because that's powergaming.

Fixed

Indeed

The Power Cosmic wrote:That's great and all, but this guy wants to play an all Termi army.

Yes, I know that. But "First Company" isn't all-TDA, even by Fluff.
____

lord_blackfang wrote:We just had a thread where a bunch of people said you can't play Deathwing if your models aren't painted as Deathwing because that's powergaming.

No, we just had a thread where a bunch of people said you can't play Deathwing if your models are painted specifically as Ultras, BT, SW, or BA. There's a difference. When we see a Ultra model, we expect it to play as an Ultra model, not a DA model. When we see a DIY model, we're OK to play it as anything.

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, we just had a thread where a bunch of people said you can't play Deathwing if your models are painted specifically as Ultras, BT, SW, or BA. There's a difference. When we see a Ultra model, we expect it to play as an Ultra model, not a DA model. When we see a DIY model, we're OK to play it as anything.

Right, because there is such a huge difference between Ultras and DA. Both are 'all 4's' (WS, BS, S, T, Init), 1 Wound, 2+ armor with a 5+ invul. DA are Fearless and can mix weaponry in, and DS half the first turn.

I can understand the problem is someone shows up and doesn't tell you "hey, I'm playing these guys as Deathwing, here's the special rules." I don't see a problem if someone does explain the 'what is what' to me.

To the OP - paint them as Ultras, BTs, Space Wolves - I don't care. I doubt that many tourney organizers would care either, but it's probably worth asking. Imperial Fists is fine. I like the WW2 German mustard yellow version of them more than the canary yellow, but that's me.

The difference isn't huge, but it's there.

And really, the primary objection is of a "dance with the one who brung ya" nature. If you go through the trouble to paint up as Ultras, then keep things simple for the opponent and play as Ultras.

I've no problem with someone playing non-DA Deathwing army, so long as I'm told beforehand. If there was another 1st Co. list available, then I'd have an issue. But since you've only got the Deathwing, then play on.

Or play only Apocalypse, GW's giant attempt to get people to stop complaining.

The Power Cosmic wrote:Or play only Apocalypse, GW's giant WIN!!!

Fixed your post.

If you are interested in being even mildly competitive, then I don't recommend going all Terminators - you're hamstringing yourself way too much. Though if you want the challenge, go for it. As a former Deathwing player, I don't think it's worth it anymore.

The 10th? A scout army is viable in the new codex? Please tell me how.

Platuan4th wrote: That said, a good 1st and 10th army is still a nasty way to go with the new Marine 'Dex.

pavonis wrote:The 10th? A scout army is viable in the new codex? Please tell me how.

Platuan4th wrote: That said, a good 1st and 10th army is still a nasty way to go with the new Marine 'Dex.

Please re-read my statement. I'm not saying a 1st Company or a 10th Company army is nasty, I'm saying a 1st AND 10th Companies army.

pavonis wrote:The 10th? A scout army is viable in the new codex? Please tell me how.

Off the top of my head:

Company Captain, plus maybe a command squad, but probably not. He's really an afterthought, perhaps on a bike to work with the scout bikers.

6 units of scouts. I'd set them up as follows:
Sgt, powerfist, 4 Bolt Pistol, CCW, 4 sniper rifles, 1 missile launcher
One unit with Telion
Some scout bikes
A landspeeder storm or two, probably with multimeltas.


One of the nice things about this is that you combat squad all the scouts. You form a firebase, that deploys last (via infiltrate & scout moves) with the sniper rifles & missile launcher teams, and you have the sgts and BP/CCW scouts ready to outflank, ride into battle on the storms, or set up to counter-charge, as your opponent's list dictates. Having 6 missile launchers and 24 sniper rifles is not bad for shooting, and 30 marine scouts w/ 6 powerfists, that can outflank, is a decent combat force.

Ah, how I feared this would rekindle the debate. I'll paint them up as a DA successor chapter, or at least make up some kind of covering fluff so some lunatic doesn't force himself down my throat. Though my opinion is solidly in the "it's by no means powergaming" camp, I don't go to my FLGS looking for an argument. I can understand resentment of the Ultrawing, as I've just been reminded of how their entire first company got pwned and is now made up of Tyrannic War Veterans. The first-and-tenth idea did occur to me, but it's a gateway to Lysanderwing which is perhaps the biggest one trick pony in the game. It's a good trick, but much too gimmicky, and frankly I see it as more of a breach of the game than counts-as deathwing. I could live with myself if I didn't always play it as a deepstrike-of-death I suppose.

As to competitiveness I'm playing this army mainly for the opportunity to work with some of my favorite models, and I'll cross the tactics bridge when I come to it.

Now, any advice on composition? My main issues are: is it worth the points to mount them in Land Raiders or the ubiquitous LRC? Am I correct in assuming that dreadnoughts should be kitted for tank hunting? Is there any noticeable difference gameplay wise between a squad of 10 termies and two squads of 5?

Mercurial wrote:I'll paint them up as a DA successor chapter, or at least make up some kind of covering fluff so some lunatic doesn't force himself down my throat.

I don't believe you *need* to paint as DA / Unforgiven.

As long as you're not obviously painted as an army that would be obviusly expected to use another Codex, you'll be fine. So that means, you don't paint as:
- UM or other Primogenitor / kiss-butt Codex slave
- BA or other well-known BA successor (i.e. Flesh Tearers)
- BT
- SW

But that still leaves a *lot* of room to work with, along with a nearly unlimited set of DIY options.

And, of course, a few well-targeted DA bitz (e.g. hooded Sergeants) would a very long way towards cementing that you're a playing a "counts as" Deathwing army.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mercurial wrote:I'll paint them up as a DA successor chapter, or at least make up some kind of covering fluff so some lunatic doesn't force himself down my throat.

I don't believe you *need* to paint as DA / Unforgiven.

As long as you're not obviously painted as an army that would be obviusly expected to use another Codex, you'll be fine. So that means, you don't paint as:
- UM or other Primogenitor / kiss-butt Codex slave
- BA or other well-known BA successor (i.e. Flesh Tearers)
- BT
- SW

But that still leaves a *lot* of room to work with, along with a nearly unlimited set of DIY options.

And, of course, a few well-targeted DA bitz (e.g. hooded Sergeants) would a very long way towards cementing that you're a playing a "counts as" Deathwing army.

To add to John's opinion, it is also possible to paint them as whatever you like and use whatever rules you like, regardless if it may happen to look like a blood angel for example.

I think you will find a surprising amount of people in the hobby who actually do not care what you paint your dollies as, as long as everything is represented on the model and you use a single set of rules during any given game.

I myself went the route of going completely DIY to ensure I never ran into the problems of people being confused as to what army I was playing. Guess what? That backfired as well, so I may as well have painted them as what is typically recognized as ultramarines (if I liked that paint scheme) and used whatever rules I wanted for all the good going DIY did me with a certain few *ahem* persnickety players. Thankfully, I found such adverse opinions about paint scheme being important to be in the vast minority in real life.

[edit]
Link to thread being referenced in this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229443.page
Keep in mind that less than 100 people voted in the thread, so the results are hardly significant to represent what the average wargamer feels about the subject.

Mercurial wrote:
Now, any advice on composition? My main issues are: is it worth the points to mount them in Land Raiders or the ubiquitous LRC? Am I correct in assuming that dreadnoughts should be kitted for tank hunting? Is there any noticeable difference gameplay wise between a squad of 10 termies and two squads of 5?

Well as I look at my DA dex I see only squads of 5, no option for a squad of 10. Even with the IC's its only a squad of 6. As to LR and LRC's. I would put assult terminators in them, and move them forward (if not Deep Striking them all), deathwing assult the shooty guys. Yes your venerable dreads should be tank hunters imo - however you should also consider a few chainfists.

As to the painting question, as long as you bring only the DA dex there should be no issue or confusion (just put it in plain view for people to see). Another solution would be to take a few Ravenwing bike squads to use their teleport homer. Since RW bikes are unique models everyone *should* recognize it as a DA army.

Alright, I think I'm gonna go ahead with the Deathwing rules, though this might be problematic if I do Imperial Fists. This would mean that I'd use the Lysander model with the Belial (toting thunder hammer) profile, which could really peeve a lot of people.

For now, I'll keep up the search for a different chapter that I'd like to play with the first company of.

Then again, the DA codex only allows for 5-man squads. This could be problematic. Anyone have any notes on the survivability of the 5-man termie squad versus the full 10?

Maybe I should just get the models and play-test both rulesets.

Just make your own Chapter.

Pick your colors and have fun with it!