Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FIrst of all, the above title is grammatically correct, as I am not looking for singular examples, but a choice/opinion on which would be worse!

So, on with the rest of it....

Importantly, this isn't actually going anywhere or leading up to anything. I'm not trying to justify or glorify my stand point, I just wanted to discuss which people find most detrimental to the enjoyment of the game. Namely...

Is it, A) a beardy army or B) a poor opponent.

Obviously, Beard is in the eye of the beholder, so I'm not going to touch on the exact definition. I can give you what I consider the worst example of a Beardy army, and that is one not so much designed to take on your chosen race, but your specific preferred army list, without such a thing being agreed beforehand.

And the statement of poor opponent is deliberately vague, as I don't want to impress or suggest that a particular style of gaming is inferior to another. So please do tell us what you consider to be a poor showing. Examples could be Rules Lawyers, people who didn't bother reading the rulebook, smug or arrogant opponents, poor winners, poor losers and so on.

So, off you go. Keep it civil, and do remember I have tried to avoid making sweeping statements and keep it all general, I would prefer if your guys try to do the same, barring of course your own definitions!

EDIT

And I completely neglected to give my own answer. So here we go.

To me, nothing ruins my game like a defeatist opponent. Now don't get me wrong, we are all entitled to a thorough grumble when things categorically don't go anywhere near our way, like when the Dice are out to get you, and it seems your troops decided bringing Blanks to the battle was a really good idea. But to complain and curse every little thing, even when your rolling is totally standard, thats just a pain. The worst of it is, that in my experience, said serial whinger tends to end up winning the game anyways, albeit not be a huge margin. It is especially piss taking when, for example, they continue to complain about how weak a certain unit is, as it proceeds to chew up and spit out the best I can throw at it!

This to me really does trump all other annoying traits an opponent might have. Except of course exceedingly poor hygiene. A Rules Lawyer is a Rules Lawyer. I think we have all gotten fairly litigious in the past about the words of a rule, and it's easy for me to see how some can get carried away. But being defeatist, also known as just not trying...makes the whole game a waste of both our time!

Now, your answers please!

Yeah, defeatist opponents get me down, too. I've had people concede on turn 2 or 3 in Warmachine when they could have smashed me but were too engrossed in their own self-pity to figure it out.

Also, when I defeat..erm...a defeatist, I feel cheated of my victory.

Depending on how deep they are wallowing in their mire of self depreciation, it can feel like I've just gone balls to the wall on a Noob, even when I know they've been playing for years.

I much prefer someone who accepts their fate, and challenges me the next week looking to redress the balance.

Indeed the worse thing is the Opponent, I can deal with a cheesy army with tactics, to deal with TFG you can't use anything but fists....

But how do you define TFG?

Which aspect of TFG do you find the most depressing or annoying?

I think either can be a problem.

I've run into people who are just not fun to play with, or are having a bad day. If it's the former I start to avoid them, if it's the later, I'll usually try again later.

I've also run into armies that I stood no chance against. In one case my opponent was running an all ork bike while I had nothing by foot troops. Once he destroyed my trukks and I had nothing to catch him with I almost conceded right then and there. I've got similar issues with the Lash and some other stuff. There are just some armies and tactics that I don't find fun to play against, and don't stand a chance against. If I find somebody who likes to employ said tactics, I'll talk to them about it, search the 'net for counters, etc, but if I can't find a solution, I'll find somebody else to play.

At the end of the day, this is a hobby. If you're not having fun, it's time to do something else.

If you realize you would never ever ever associate with this person outside of the game you are currently forced to play then you're playing TFG.

Some indicators:
*No sense of humor;
*Really serious about his toy soldiers;
*Really litigious and LOS sucky;
*Thinks winning means anything at all.

Personally, I have to say the bad opponent is the worse experience. Beardy armies can still be interesting play against, especially if you manage to put up a good fight/win and the player is fun to game with.

If the player fits any of the possible definitions of TFG, it doesn't matter how well balanced or challenging his list is. The opponent himself makes the experience bad, regardless of what happens during the game (though, some varieties of TFG are particularly fun to defeat).

I totally agree with the defeatist thing thats a killer, but has anyone else come across both a defeatist opponent fielding a cheese army? Back in the heyday of BA lists ('03 i think) i was up against a guys using the beardiest BA army i had ever seen. He started off being infuriatingly cocky but by turn 2 he had been reduced to a whining child crying about everything. He clearly read about a power list and emulated it but failed to understand the tactics behind it.

Worst...game...ever...

A beardy army can be fun to play against. A TFG can ruin ANYTHING. I've had several poor experiences with certain players, but when I face a beardy army it exposes weaknesses and helps me learn about the game. I've had the same guy try to argue that Vindicators could not fire at something under 36" away, and then in another game try to argue that when his entire footslogging Tau army was surrounded and in close combat with my Tyranids in a castle about 18 inches across, that he won "on victory points". He had a brother that was just as bad, and a friend that spoke in monotone and refused to learn how to play the game.

I have also had the displeasure of running into some certain individuals that love to play the "wait those aren't Catachans they are Space Wolf Terminators" game. Nothing is more enraging that a person who intentionally waits for you to make decisions just to tell you that his models count as something else. "Oh, that Ulthwe Wraithlord is a Harlequin Wraithlord, he has a 4+ dodge save. Oh, those Scouts aren't scouts, they are devastators with heavy bolters. Oh, my army list doesn't have my ambushing Catachans with demo charges? Well I have them, they ambush here and throw demo charges at your dudes.


TFG's ruin the game more than any other possible factor.

In a 1000 point turny I had to fight eldred 4 times. Not just him but, a huge seer support group an avatar and a wraith lord. I Beat the list 3/4 times, and got 2nd place, but I felt cheated anyways. Fighting the same cookie cutter internet generated armies is no fun. My last opponet told me how he just copy/pasted his army list and went on about how unbeatable Eldrad and company are. I hate complaining about lists but str9, rerollable misses and re rollable saves... Even when you win you get angry, grrrr.

I've not suffered these bad games...but I heard through a friend, who was a witness, of a game that went badly for a young lad...he lost the game, lost his temper and overturned the table smashing everything on the floor.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've not suffered these bad games...but I heard through a friend, who was a witness, of a game that went badly for a young lad...he lost the game, lost his temper and overturned the table smashing everything on the floor.

If that had been been me i would still be in prison.

You know...for murder.

And this is why GW has TMIR to have fun for both players.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And this is why GW has TMIR to have fun for both players.

Forgive my noobness, but "TMIR"?

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've not suffered these bad games...but I heard through a friend, who was a witness, of a game that went badly for a young lad...he lost the game, lost his temper and overturned the table smashing everything on the floor.

That is a true TFG right there. I would beat the gak out of TFG until his rectum came out his nose.

So, TFG is far worse. I will admit that I have a defeatist attitude with my Nids sometimes, because I CAN'T KILL MARINES. At all. Nothing I have except lucky rending in CC, MC lists, and Bio-acid mines from a Biovore can overcome their armor. Meanwhile, nothing they have is INeffective against me.

I just hope for a fun game. I lose a LOT more than I win, and generally take it in stride (except against Orks). But if my opponent complains that his three Land Raiders couldn't get close enough for his Assault Terminators to get to my Carnifex and he HAD to shoot and kill it instead, that is just annoying.

Cheese lists I can deal with (actually welcome)

Traditional TFG I can deal with (If he cheats and I still win I feel even better about my victory!)

What I hate is slow play tournament player. In most tournaments there is a time limit. You spend over 20 minutes on a single movement phase with over half of the phase not moving models but thinking..... Then you have to look up the stats for every weapon you fire each turn. Then you look up every single rule for everything, never trusting a word I say. When all my other games go 5+ turns and you are playing a non horde army and we barley make it through 2?

At least I now know to play as if the game will only last a couple of turns when I play against you, but I dread meeting your twin at other events.

Mattlov wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've not suffered these bad games...but I heard through a friend, who was a witness, of a game that went badly for a young lad...he lost the game, lost his temper and overturned the table smashing everything on the floor.

That is a true TFG right there. I would beat the gak out of TFG until his rectum came out his nose.

Gee, and here I thought you wanted to be Quarterback! Turns out you want be a WIDE RECEIVER. Good job Son, good job!

My "worst" experiences were all linked to people who're either too stupid to play these games well (which is different from win, a person who doesn't win can still play the game well) or didn't know how to keep their hands to theirself.

with an iron fist wrote:
My "worst" experiences were all linked to people who're either too stupid to play these games well (which is different from win, a person who doesn't win can still play the game well) or didn't know how to keep their hands to theirself.

Wait, did you, like, get molested during a game?

lord_blackfang wrote:

with an iron fist wrote:
My "worst" experiences were all linked to people who're either too stupid to play these games well (which is different from win, a person who doesn't win can still play the game well) or didn't know how to keep their hands to theirself.

Wait, did you, like, get molested during a game?

Let's just say there're some children whose lives were probably made safer by my responses in said situations.

FearPeteySodes wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:And this is why GW has TMIR to have fun for both players.

Forgive my noobness, but "TMIR"?

The Most Important Rule (have fun)

I am entirely unsure how I would react to someone flipping my army onto the floor. Parts of me would want to enact violence, other parts would be worried about stomping my own models while laying into him and part of me would be worried about being expelled from one of the few gathering places in my neck of the woods. More than likely I would ask him to accompany me outside for a heart-to-heart or foot-to-ass

If some tool actually flipped the table, I'd forcibly place him under arrest for vandalism to my models and lock him down until the cops arrived.

If I happen to require force to place him under arrest, or apply painful compliance holds to restrain him, that's just too darn bad for him.

After that, he's either going to pay to replace and repair everything he broke, or I'm pressing charges.

My biggest problem is an opponent who isn't casual about the game. I made a mistake and now we need to turn the clock back a few rolls ok? It rarely happens but when it does once in a blue moon someone who wants to argue over it for 40 minutes rather than have finished the game in that time isn't worth it.

I remember a few instances. In a team game I let the Tau player go back and move his dudes their assault phase jetpack move. Then when my partner wanted to DS some plague bearers to an icon the Tau players partner argued with him for an hour over wether he had to scatted because he was within one inch and not a few milloimeters outside said inch. So while they fought we went off and did other stuff. I time it and when 30 minutes went by I packed my things up and left. The guy tried to come back and apologize, but instead of actually doing it he was just trying to ocnvince me that he was right and it was right of him to have argued. I told him to go F himself and that I'd see him next weekend when he was sober.

wow these stories are great.
i never experienced such a "bad player" in my FLGS. (i go to 2 depending where i am at the time) i think the only thing i can relate here is having a match with a defeatist player, i mean i just wana get it over with if your gona mope how broken blood crushers are!

and i dont like players who take their time in their turns, especially when they know you're at an advantage, its like they just wana piss you off.


EDIT: Not to mention players who want to hit on you, i mean, im there to play 40k! not try to find someone to go out with.

I really hate people who consistently use cookie-cutter lists (Nob bikers, Dual Lash CSM, etc). It's just so weak and devoid of imagination. Basically, the Win At All Costs guys. They really take the fun out of the game. After all, why play if it isn't challenging?

Bad Player. We have a textbook version of these at my FLGS.

NO KIDDING

Average player, but when he begins to lose, its ALWAYS dice, even when he rolls average....AND HE GETS PISSED. Last time I saw him playing a game with average dice rolls he was getting BARELY beaten by a chaos player while he was playing his marines. He had a Sabol army case and his trays were outside of the case. He got so fed up, everytime he took casualties he would THROW his models into the case, metals-plastics-it didnt matter, and when I say throw, I mean "Slam-Dunk". Of course he was complaining/cursing all the way.

I used to think it was fun to beat him and have him throw a tantrum....but its gotten old since. Most regular players at the store refuse to play him. He has to get games either with out-of-towners or new patrons that dont know him yet.

....He's even walked out of RTT's after the second game before because his second game turned up a loss for him. I dont think they let him play the RTT's anymore.

Textbook example.

I had to stop playing my brother cos he has such a bad temper. In 1 shooting phase his havocs missed all their shots and he quit there and then. He proceded to break them all (and a few teminators for good measure) and then asked the next day if I could fix them for him. Good job I live in another country now.

But yeah, for me facing a beardy army isn't a bad thing. Its a challenge but as long as the player is agreeable the game can be fun.

I hate the combination of arrogance + poor loser. I've played two.

The first was this creepy Chaos player. It would be mildly amusing to watch him talk about the Glory of Khorne and all that, until he spends more time talking smack about my Vampire Counts than playing the game. At some point his unit of Khorne Chosen charged a block of armored skellies, lost the combat, and were run down. That's when he turned into quieter but grumpier sore loser guy. He'd question the validity of the results if anything seemed to not go his way, looking at the local Red Shirt for help, who seemed to take immense pleasure in telling him he was wrong.

The other was this idiot I knew when I was in the Army. He liked to style himself as some Irish Druid descendent-of-Merlin Necromancer (even had custom ID tags with "Necromancer" for his religion). He was a loudmouthed arrogant jerk, made all the more annoying by his being about 5'5". He played Necrons (big surprise) and spent the whole morning talking smack about how he was going to crush my Imperial Guard (ego inflated by a 3-way game where my Tau took a beating). During my 2nd turn of shooting a Demolisher cannon blasted 8 Necron warriors (about 1/3rd of his army)....and then he started to complain about how he had a headache, wasn't feeling well, how he wanted to get back to the barracks, etc. etc. His transformation into a whiny bitch only amplified my enjoyment of slaughtering him with my "puny" Guardsmen, but it was still annoying.

I've seen a player 'faint' during a game...

He'd rather foolishly parked a very expensive unit of Bretonnian Knights (pre-book) in front of a 4 deep unit of Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses....why he looked so surprised, I'll never know!