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Can a 10 man terminator squad use the combat squad rule to split 1/2 the unit to deploy on the table, and the other 1/2 deploying in reserves?

My opinion is that they can, but I have heard otherwise.

Thanks,
GG

If you read the rules on combat squad you will find the operative word is : Deploy

You split the unit into two combat squads when you deploy them. You dont "deploy" a unit in reserves. So simply you cant combat squad units in reserves.

By deploy im pretty sure they mean placing models on the table.

I agree with Razerous.

Razerous wrote:If you read the rules on combat squad you will find the operative word is : Deploy

You split the unit into two combat squads when you deploy them. You dont "deploy" a unit in reserves. So simply you cant combat squad units in reserves.

By deploy im pretty sure they mean placing models on the table.

The problem I have with what you just said is that both the combat squad rule and the reserves rule says that these actions happen during deployment. The fact that you split squads during deployment and also put units into reserves during deployment, to me means that splitting into combat squads and putting squads in reserve happen at the same time. So it seems pretty clear to me that you can:
A-Combat squad your termies and
B-Place 5 of them in reserve

Both happening at the same time.

Unless I'm missing something somewhere.



Thanks,
GG

edited for typos

generalgrog wrote:The problem I have with what you just said is that both the combat squad rule and the reserves rule says that these actions happen during deployment. The fact that you split squads during deployment and also put units into reserves during deployment, to me means that splitting into combat squads and putting squads in reserve happen at the same time. So it seems pretty clear to me that you can:
A-Combat squad your termies and
B-Place 5 of them in reserve

Both happening at the same time.

Unless I'm missing something somewhere.

You're missing the sentence on pg. 94 of the BGB(Emphasis mine):

"Preparing Reserves
When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army..."

Also, Combat Squads, Codex: Space Marines, pg. 51:

"The Decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit deploys."

If you place the Terminators into Reserves, they do not deploy. As they don't deploy, they can not Combat Squad.

When the unit comes in from reserves though, they can split into the combat squads. Further down on Pg94. "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and DEPLOYS it"

Platuan4th wrote:

generalgrog wrote:The problem I have with what you just said is that both the combat squad rule and the reserves rule says that these actions happen during deployment. The fact that you split squads during deployment and also put units into reserves during deployment, to me means that splitting into combat squads and putting squads in reserve happen at the same time. So it seems pretty clear to me that you can:
A-Combat squad your termies and
B-Place 5 of them in reserve

Both happening at the same time.

Unless I'm missing something somewhere.

You're missing the sentence on pg. 94 of the BGB(Emphasis mine):

"Preparing Reserves
When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army..."

Also, Combat Squads, Codex: Space Marines, pg. 51:

"The Decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit deploys."

If you place the Terminators into Reserves, they do not deploy. As they don't deploy, they can not Combat Squad.

But thats just it I didn't miss that at all.

The decision to place my unit into combat squads happens when I deploy. I am making 2 decision during the deployment, My first decision is to combat squad. Now I have 2 units. not 1 unit. Now my 2nd decision is to NOT TO DEPLOY the new squad I'm going to deepstrike.

it seems that I'm the minority here so I'm thinking I must be wrong, but I just can't see it at the moment.

Are the combat squads 2 new units or not?

GG

The operative word 'Deploy' and the term of 'during deployment' your using generalgrog are two different things, try and read the replies to threads more carefully.

The differance/what to read has been nicely shown by Mr. Plat.

If I understand, you also have to specify when a unit goes in reserve whether it is deep striking, outflanking or just in reserve.
So... If you declare a unit to be deep striking, and then want to combat squad it, both combat squads would have to deep strike.

Razerous wrote:The operative word 'Deploy' and the term of 'during deployment' your using generalgrog are two different things, try and read the replies to threads more carefully.

The differance/what to read has been nicely shown by Mr. Plat.

I find your responce both arrogant and offensive. I'm trying to understand something and you have to go and be a smart a$$.

Not very helpfull dude.

GG

generalgrog wrote:

Razerous wrote:The operative word 'Deploy' and the term of 'during deployment' your using generalgrog are two different things, try and read the replies to threads more carefully.

The differance/what to read has been nicely shown by Mr. Plat.

I find your responce both arrogant and offensive. I'm trying to understand something and you have to go and be a smart a$$.

Not very helpfull dude.

GG

Fair doos. I do try. Im not wrong. Im just pointing out where you got it wrong so that you dont trouble yourself making the same mistake twice (yes yes I know this is as bad as the last post).

I do apologise.

DAaddict wrote:If I understand, you also have to specify when a unit goes in reserve whether it is deep striking, outflanking or just in reserve.
So... If you declare a unit to be deep striking, and then want to combat squad it, both combat squads would have to deep strike.

OK so you are supposing that you have to declare a unit to be in reserve before declaring weather or not a unit is combat squading?

I would agree in that case that you couldn't split termies then DS 1/2. However it doesn't say that you have to declare reserves then do combat squads. I concede that it doesn't say that you do combat squads first either. So it seems that they happen simultaneuously?

If it's simultaneous than it doesn't matter which order you do it.

GG

If you read Platuan's reply above, the process goes like this:

1) I "deploy" my forces (physically onto the table)
2) During that time I "do not deploy" my reserves, but indicate that "these terminators will be deep striking" (i.e. in reserves).
3) Then, after successfully rolling my reserves for the Termies, I "deploy" them via deep strike. When I do that, I can combat squad them, bringing both squads down wherever I want (or keeping them all together at one spot as one squad).

So, the bottom line is you either deploy them on the table at the beginning (and can combat squad there), or keep them in reserve, and combat squad when they arrive. I don't see where in that process you can split a single 10 man squad to both deploy and deep strike.

They either all start on the board, or none of them do.

Cruentus wrote:If you read Platuan's reply above, the process goes like this:

1) I "deploy" my forces (physically onto the table)
2) During that time I "do not deploy" my reserves, but indicate that "these terminators will be deep striking" (i.e. in reserves).
3) Then, after successfully rolling my reserves for the Termies, I "deploy" them via deep strike. When I do that, I can combat squad them, bringing both squads down wherever I want (or keeping them all together at one spot as one squad).

So, the bottom line is you either deploy them on the table at the beginning (and can combat squad there), or keep them in reserve, and combat squad when they arrive. I don't see where in that process you can split a single 10 man squad to both deploy and deep strike.

Believe me I have read plat's post. (and read it carefully) :-)

1) I "deploy" my forces (physically onto the table) check-only deploying 5 of my combat squaded parent unit-note edited to clarify my responce.gg

2) During that time I "do not deploy" my reserves, but indicate that "these terminators will be deep striking" (i.e. in reserves).
check- I have decided to combat squad (done during deployment as stated in the codex) so 5 of the termies I have chosen the option of not deploying them.

3) Then, after successfully rolling my reserves for the Termies, I "deploy" them via deep strike. When I do that, I can combat squad them, bringing both squads down wherever I want (or keeping them all together at one spot as one squad).

NOcheck. I disagree with this because I have chosen to combat squad during part 2 of your scenario.

The break down appears to be related to the way I read the units. I am reading it as combat squads make 2 units so therefore I can do whatever I want with either unit. So I don't see it as 1 unit, if I did I would agree totally with what you, razerous and plat are saying.

The codex even states that the combat squads count as seperate units.

It sounds like what you all are saying, for combat squading, is that the unit does not count as seperate units until after they are "deployed" . And your definition of "deployed" is being placed on the table. And that's fine and should end the conversation right there.

Except that the reserves rule states that you can place your units in reserve during deployment. And the codex states that combat squads are made during deployment.

I still see it as a simultaneous action.

GG

You can't "deploy" and "not deploy" simultaneously.

dietrich wrote:You can't "deploy" and "not deploy" simultaneously.

I didn't say that.

LOL

GG

generalgrog wrote:

dietrich wrote:You can't "deploy" and "not deploy" simultaneously.

I didn't say that.

LOL

GG

Actually, you did. You stated that a single Combat squad is deploying, and the other is in reserve(not deploying). This is actually illegal, as the way Combat Squads is written is that you separate them when the Unit deploys(not one combat squad, the WHOLE unit). This is clearly stating that the whole unit either deploys(in which case it then Combat Squads) or goes into Deep Strike. If one Combat Squad deploys, they must both deploy, as only after deploying do they count as separate units.

generalgrog wrote:2) During that time I "do not deploy" my reserves, but indicate that "these terminators will be deep striking" (i.e. in reserves).
check- I have decided to combat squad (done during deployment as stated in the codex) so 5 of the termies I have chosen the option of not deploying them.

You didn't read my post thoroughly enough. The wording for combat squads is not "during deployment" as you seem to think, the wording is "must be made when the unit deploys."

It is very explicit that you MUST deploy to Combat Squad, not just be in the Deployment Phase. As Reserves "choose not to deploy", they do not deploy and therefore can not Combat Squad. The only exception to this is Squads in Drop Pods.

Plat, we will just have to agree to disagree then my friend, as I don't see it the same way as you do.

I also don't see a difference between "during deployment" and "made when the unit deploys" It's the same thing in my opinion. Because the unit "deploys" "during deployment" does it not? Now we may be getting to the point where we start arguing over what the meaning of the word "is" is.

Hopefully some other's will chime in.

GG

I'm with Plat on this one.

You can't combat squad them in reserve (which you have to hold them in to DS them) therefor you cant keep half in half out...its quite simple imo.

generalgrog wrote:

Razerous wrote:The operative word 'Deploy' and the term of 'during deployment' your using generalgrog are two different things, try and read the replies to threads more carefully.

The differance/what to read has been nicely shown by Mr. Plat.

I find your responce both arrogant and offensive. I'm trying to understand something and you have to go and be a smart a$$.

Not very helpfull dude.

GG

Realize that online no one can see the inflection in your voice... To EVERYONE on dakka: Put some extra effort into phrasing things that can't be easily misunderstood. What Razerous said might very well have been said with a helpful attitude but there's no way anyone could know because that phrase is easily taken as a slight... I'm finding a lot of this here. That and a lot of spelling errors. And I mean a LOT.

Yeah im going to have to disagree Plat, at least with you Drop pod example. The reason the exception is given to Combat Squads and Drop Pods, is because technically the squad is deployed the moment the Drop Pod lands. They then disembark from the Pod immediately thereafter. So a specific exception had to be made.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Yeah im going to have to disagree Plat, at least with you Drop pod example. The reason the exception is given to Combat Squads and Drop Pods, is because technically the squad is deployed the moment the Drop Pod lands. They then disembark from the Pod immidatly thereafter. So a specific exception had to be made.

The exception is made because of how the Deep Strike and Drop Pod rules are worded. You don't "deploy" from Deep Strike or Drop Pods, you "arrive"(and then Disembark for Pods). Dark Angels and Blood Angels aren't allowed to Combat Squad from Drop Pods because they lack that exception and are never "deployed" only held in reserve like other units that Deep Strike. If you "deployed" from Deep Strike then Terminators would be able to Combat Squad after Drop and they wouldn't require that exception in the Combat Squad rules.

Platuan4th wrote:

Marius Xerxes wrote:Yeah im going to have to disagree Plat, at least with you Drop pod example. The reason the exception is given to Combat Squads and Drop Pods, is because technically the squad is deployed the moment the Drop Pod lands. They then disembark from the Pod immidatly thereafter. So a specific exception had to be made.

Incorrect. The exception is made because of how the Deep Strike and Drop Pod rules are worded. You don't "deploy" from Deep Strike or Drop Pods, you "arrive"(and then Disembark for Pods). Dark Angels and Blood Angels aren't allowed to Combat Squad from Drop Pods because they lack that exception and are never "deployed" only held in reserve like other units that Deep Strike. If you "deployed" from Deep Strike then Terminators would be able to Combat Squad after Drop and they wouldn't require that exception in the Combat Squad rules.

You, in my opinion, would be incorrect.

Pg. 95 of the BRB under Deep Strike "Roll for the arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows". Emphaisis is mine. While the word "arrival" is indeed in the rules, it clearly says the models "deploy" further on in the sentence. You can not choose to ignore this or pass it off as inconsequential. This is also reflected on pg. 94 under Rolling for Reserves with "Once all the units have been rolled for, the player picks one of the units arriving and deploys it.." Emphasis mine. Units do indeed "Arrive" from Reserves, but in all cases they are "Deployed" onto the table.

Dark Angels and Blood Angels are not allowed to Combat Squad out of a Drop Pod because when the unit "Arrives" they are then "Deployed" inside, and along with, a transport. After they are "Deployed" they are forced to immediately disembak from said transport. The rules for transports do not allow for seperate units to be embarked at the same time. That is why.

Terminators are not allowed to Combat Squad after a Deep Strike for the same reason unit cannot Combat Squad after using the Gate of Infinity. Simply put, in both cases the models must all be placed together when "Deployed" (or re-deployed in the case of GoI) onto the board.

EDIT: My quote from you was from before you changed the wording of it with your own edit of your post. No words were added by myself.

generalgrog wrote:

DAaddict wrote:If I understand, you also have to specify when a unit goes in reserve whether it is deep striking, outflanking or just in reserve.
So... If you declare a unit to be deep striking, and then want to combat squad it, both combat squads would have to deep strike.

OK so you are supposing that you have to declare a unit to be in reserve before declaring weather or not a unit is combat squading?

I would agree in that case that you couldn't split termies then DS 1/2. However it doesn't say that you have to declare reserves then do combat squads. I concede that it doesn't say that you do combat squads first either. So it seems that they happen simultaneuously?

If it's simultaneous than it doesn't matter which order you do it.

GG

Page 94


"If a unit in reserve have the deep strike, scout or infiltrate special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during deployment whether they are going to use the special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge... The decision may not be changed later."

So the unit must declare what it is doing at the beginning of the game.

Combat squadding a UNIT happens when the unit is about to hit the table not at the time you declare what is in reserve. So you cannot split the UNIT of 10 into two combat squads at the time of deployment and have one chose to be in reserve and one chose to enter from your board edge. As a non-terminator example, a full Ravenwing squad consists of 6 bikes, 1 attack bike and one landspeeder.
A landspeeder can deep strike and all Ravenwing have scout so they can outflank. It can combat squad to 2 3-bike units, the attack bike and the landspeeder. A Ravenwing player cannot declare that 1 3 bike unit will outflank, the landspeeder will deep strike and then have the other 3-bike unit deploy on the board and the attack bike be in reserve. Alone, each of these is legal but they are a squad of 10 marines at the time of deployment so I have to decide whether I am deploying them, keeping them in reserve or outflanking. (I can't ever choose to deep strike as only the landspeeder could do that.) Only when I deploy them whether at the beginning or from reserve/outflanking do I actually combat squad them.

I think the hang up is on the definition of unit and the wording of combat squadding. You are stating that combat squads are separate units. I don't think they are until the unit is deployed. The squad is one unit in your force organization and then the marine combat squadding kicks in at the time the unit is deployed and allows you to split it up into independent units.

If you want the deployment flexibility, just make 2 5-man termie squads. Heck that is 400 points minimum anyways so unless you are playing 2000+ point battles, that shouldn't cramp your style unless you are wanting 10 termies, 10 sterngard and an ironclad dreadnought. There is an easy 900 points in your army so you won't have much other than troops and HQs anyways.

DAaddict, I definately agree that it isn't a HUGE deal. I also realize that the majority believes that I'm wrong. I also don't mind playing the way the majority believes to be the corect way. I don't think it's as cut and dried as you guys think though.

I won't lose any sleep over it.


GG

I guess folks better not take razorbacks for sm tactical squads in case of dawn of war deployment. Makes 'em kind of useless.

"The Decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit deploys."

I think the rules as stated in the SM codex are quite simply stated. I also think that a lot of people are confusing what deployment is. A deepstriking or reserve unit "deploys" on the turn it enters play.

This brings up another question though. If you have a unit in reserve that is to be deployed as 2 combat squads, do you roll seperate reserve rolls each turn until they deploy or just a single roll for both squads?

Razerous wrote:If you read the rules on combat squad you will find the operative word is : Deploy

You split the unit into two combat squads when you deploy them. You dont "deploy" a unit in reserves. So simply you cant combat squad units in reserves.

By deploy im pretty sure they mean placing models on the table.

Sorry for the double post. I just wanted to make this point. Reserves ARE deployed the turn they enter play.