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Its not quite done, but I need some sleep.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Lists_to_beat%2C_the_40k_Meta_Game_as_of_02/22/09

please post any comments about the article here.

I am not seeing drop pod spam as Tier II. too easy to counter it.

looks pretty good. I'd expect the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth as people claim there is no metagame, it's generals and not lists, etc.

Very interesting, thanks a lot.

How many tournaments have nob bikers won? How many wins have the dual-lash lists gotten? Do you have anything backing up these ideas or is it just what you heard on the internet?

I dont say they are wrong, I just wonder where you gotten this from. The orc horde with lootas have won more tourneys then the nobz-bikers for example. Think there are some bloodcrusher lists that done pretty well too. (without counting the ardboy win)

Another major factor for this is also at what point limit you play.

I did forget to add the blood crusher list. I will Fix that tonight, as well as adding the other lists.


Also The Green Horde will be added to tier 1. I was having a hard time digging up a good list as a sample. If you can supply one please post it in the other Thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231149.page




Also if a mod could move this to the article discussion section, that would be fabulous

Oh and Thanks legoburner for helping with the layout

The nidzilla list would be a lot nastier if all the carnies were 113 point devourer models, and the flyrant had a tl devourer pair also.

Also, the mobile Eldar list would be better if you duplicated the council, but in my opinion the best has everything on a bike but the 3 prisms. YMMV

Hey, sorry for being not-caught-up, but that's kinda what this thread is for, right?

Anyway, I'm not quite clear on how having that nob biker setup lets you avoid removing whole models rather than just spreading the wounds around.

I've never seen anyone with one of those lists, but I still think it'd be important to understand.

I think you should try and take an average of what was played at waht games etc.. I am not trying to be rude but as far as evidence its not very factual or has basis in anything but very specific tournaments; that does not mean they are not strong lists it just doesnt have a compartive. Basically what data are you using to create this list; how are you determining .

That said I think you honestly need more data and some actual physical numbers mathematically to back that up before you can discuss something beyond a metagame.

I enjoy metagaming I consider it somewhat important in learning to be a better player, but its not really metagaming to say this army list is the strongest.

If anyone has a picture of armies on a table with these builds, it would be nice

Polonius wrote:looks pretty good. I'd expect the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth as people claim there is no metagame, it's generals and not lists, etc.

If you want, I can do that right now. I'd be lying profusely, of course.

It just goes to show how incredibly degenerate the metagame becomes when tournaments are involved.

Nice article though One nitpick when you are talking about armour saves:
+4 means to add 4 to something.
4+ means to roll higher than 4 on a die/dice

Nob bikers won both best overall and best general in Baltimore 08, for starters.

Meta-game? Pfft! What a load of nonsense.

Next you guy will be claiming that 'Playing to Win' and 'Power Gaming' aren't the same thing, when they so cearly are. Damned tournament gamers - always ruining it for us true gamers, the casual gamers!

BYE

HBMC: I take it the kids playing in your yard are all tourney gamers?

I liked the article and found it interesting, as it explained in a way I could understand what is in one of these extreme lists and how they work.

Where to start….

Clthomps wrote:
please post any comments about the article here.

There is quite a bit of theoryhammer with your Tiers. I think for the most part you are right, but in a couple areas you are mistaken.

Mech Eldar which you label as Mobile Eldar has never been close to winning anything. Also the Seer Council is all theoryhammer at this point, because I do not think I have seen one on the top tables at any event. You can also make a good argument that any Eldar army does not belong in Tier II, but if I had to pick one, I would say that the Iyanden build has had the most success at major tournaments.

The Land Raider spam list has not proven to be a winner yet, although it should be on the list for Meta-game purposes because it got a huge upgrade with 5th edition, and I believe we will see it more.

You can also add Mech Sisters to Tier II. With the changes from 5th edition, they performed very well on the GT circuit.

Kallbrand wrote:How many tournaments have nob bikers won? How many wins have the dual-lash lists gotten?

Nob Bikers won both the Chicago GT and the Baltimore GT. I have been to a lot of major tournaments in the US, and I would say that he is pretty close to right on with the Tiers. The 2 lists you mention are incredibly hard to beat with a well rounded, take-all-comers list. Just like Iron Warriors and Seer Councils in 3rd/4th edition.

Kallbrand wrote: Do you have anything backing up these ideas or is it just what you heard on the internet?

There is no way of knowing what the strong builds are unless you are there, or have heard from someone who was there. When the results that are posted, the armies show up as CSM or Orks, and we have no way to telling what exactly what is in those armies.

Kallbrand wrote:I dont say they are wrong, I just wonder where you gotten this from. The orc horde with lootas have won more tourneys then the nobz-bikers for example.

There are a couple reasons for this. The major reason why is that it took a while to develop after 5th edition was released because the new rules made the Nob Biker list much more effective.

GMMStudios wrote:The nidzilla list would be a lot nastier if all the carnies were 113 point devourer models, and the flyrant had a tl devourer pair also.

I will make the argument that Nidzilla and to a lesser extent Stealer Shock lists have fallen from Tier II. Both of those lists have been neutered with 5th editions change to Rending. Also the meta game with the threat of orks means that everyone is loading up on the types of weapons that easily kill their troops. Another thing that killed the ‘Nidzilla list is the loss of Venom Cannons for anti-tank.

The nidzilla list would be a lot nastier if all the carnies were 113 point devourer models, and the flyrant had a tl devourer pair also.

Also, the mobile Eldar list would be better if you duplicated the council, but in my opinion the best has everything on a bike but the 3 prisms. YMMV

Do up the lists and post them here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231149.page#top


They will find there way into the article that way.

Well at least no one is arguing about, Dual Lash

^ True.

And I apologize as I have realized this isnt a thread for list critique but to give a general idea.

But yes I agree Nids are iffy on tier two, and as Blackmoor has pointed out, until we see biker councils in top tables then i dont think much Eldar should be tier two other than Iyanden.

Add sisters both immo spam and 3 exorcist sisters.

Your zilla list is sub-par IMO (if you want details as to what a good nidzilla list is PM me or just levae a post).

You might want to add a reserve eldar army to your tier 2 list.

After that it's a fairly acurate assecment, keep it up.

grizgrin wrote:HBMC: I take it the kids playing in your yard are all tourney gamers?

Nah. Just pre-empting the self-righteous 'this is the only way to play' anti-tournament crowd we have here.

BYE

Yeah, got that. The sarcasm was suppossed to be communicated by Mr. Laughin Ork. He failed.

Has anyone ever mentioned the dire need we have around here for a sarcasm button, similar to the bold, italicize, and underline buttons? I think it would be a really neat-o idea!

grizgrin wrote:I think it would be a really neat-o idea!

See, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or not.



BYE

I guess that would come closer to general jackassery or possibly parody. Emotibuttons would be handy, though.

Clthomps wrote:Well at least no one is arguing about, Dual Lash

I see how they can be really effective on paper, and I have no doublt that they have probably wont a tourney or 3, but in the last major tourney I participated in, there were 5 lash armies out of 31 players. Best general went to a white scars player. go figure.