Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not to be confused with the other topic going on now.

Here I want us to discuss what we would like and what we think we will get with the new space hulk, when it comes out.

I know my mind quite well on this matter, I want GW to produce a plastic kit of tiles, easily enlarged by buying another box, so that I quietly play the first version of the game with my closest friends with a minimum of fuss. I am not interested in any new minis, I have quite enough of those, and looking back at other recent GW ruleset, I hardly care what they do with the rules.

I would prefer my own little corner.

Dang, title is all wrong, it will happen in Q3. Can someone tell my how you edit a topics title?

You ask a moderator.

I want good rules. Perhaps a slight tweaking of 1st ed rules.
While I like 2nd ed, there was no customization unless you played the fangs of fenris campaign (assault cannon, chainfists and 5 action points...thats it) I feel people would enjoy the customization that the deathwing expansion brought to 1st ed (that and the very nice idea of ambush blips).

I would like the timer brought back as well for those who wish to use the option. I heard that it would be cheaper to include an electronic timer than it would be to use the old sand timer.

I also beleive that it would be cheaper for GW to fabricate plastic tiles in house as opposed to printing cardboard tiles out of house due to rising print costs. So I would like to see new plastic tiles not only made, but to fit the 40mm bases of termies. This would also encourage people to base their genestealers on 40mm bases to add stability to them. May as well if the tiles would accommodate 40mm bases.

I would like for the rules to be hardbound (or at least sell a hardbound copy separately), and include all the 18 basic missions found in 2nd ed as well as all of the 5 white dwarf 2nd ed campaigns (17 missions). Perhaps even a new not-yet-seen campaign to give the grognards a reason to buy it. That should give enough playability for quite a awhile.

There is no reason to not do the above, as it is already written out. There is no need to devote resources to development (or not much if they wish to make sure it is balanced). They just need to gather them together in one place with some new graphics design, and then GW can call it good.

I would like to see expansions in the future, but after the failure that was the genestealer expansion, I have my doubts that they would be necessary.
Allow me to qualify by saying that I think while the psychic rules are 'interesting' they slow down the game to a degree that I personally found that inclusion extraneous. I can see some people playing space hulk so much that they would get bored with the normal rules and would like the flavor tht psychic rules add to the game, but again, I found them slowing the game down too much. I did like the inclusion of genestealer hybrids, if only because they really made the termies be one guard for returning fire from some nasty nasty weapons. Making obstacles in the games a real nice addition.

Do you think they'd include enough plastic tiles to replicate the original layout? That's a lot of tiles.

BYE

Hellfury wrote:I also beleive that it would be cheaper for GW to fabricate plastic tiles in house as opposed to printing cardboard tiles out of house due to rising print costs. So I would like to see new plastic tiles not only made, but to fit the 40mm bases of termies.

Highly doubt that, and I deal with printing companies all the time btw. If there are plastic tiles the game will be dearer.

I'd vote card tiles for 40mm bases, and then I'd look forward to seeing what some scenery wizkids come up with and maybe have a go myself. Theres some great old space hulk and warhammer quest DIY tiles on the net if you can find them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do you think they'd include enough plastic tiles to replicate the original layout? That's a lot of tiles.

Not really that many tiles. There are 43 tiles in the basic set for both 1st and 2nd ed. plus 20 doors and 5 bulkheads. if they made them as thin or about as thin as the mighty empires tiles, it wouldnt be beyond reason to have them fit in a FFG Descent sized box along with the models. Thats my guess anyways.

whatwhat wrote:

Hellfury wrote:I also beleive that it would be cheaper for GW to fabricate plastic tiles in house as opposed to printing cardboard tiles out of house due to rising print costs. So I would like to see new plastic tiles not only made, but to fit the 40mm bases of termies.

Highly doubt that, and I deal with printing companies all the time btw. If there are plastic tiles the game will be dearer.

I'd vote card tiles for 40mm bases, and then I'd look forward to seeing what some scenery wizkids come up with and maybe have a go myself. Theres some great old space hulk and warhammer quest DIY tiles on the net if you can find them.

Its been a awhile since I have worked for a printing company myself, but I know that printing costs are anything but cheap nowadays. There are many game companies that are putting their developments on hold due to high printing costs. Steve Jackson games isn't able to produce the new edition of OGRE until he can find a cheap printing source, for example.
[edit] an interesting article about how much it cost for the New York Times to print and distribute their own newspaper...in house.

If you consider the upfront costs of the plastic molds for the tiles, and then compare that to outsourcing printing, I would be willing to bet that 10,000 units of games would cost just as much to develop.
Then GW no longer has to worry about fluctuating printing costs, as they produce the tiles themselves, keeping all the profit for themselves (as is their way). Other than the molds, costs for plastic manufacturing are very cheap in comparison to outsourcing to printers.
The main costs would be carried over to the consumer, which would be shipping such heavy games. But then again, thats nothing new.

If you are going to make a Loss leader game such as Space Hulk, I think it makes far more financial sense to use the tools you already own within your own company, than it is to outsource. I think GW feels the same way, or it wouldn't actually own their plastic manufacturing facilities, instead of outsourcing like they used to to produce molds and sprues.

Additionally, it makes the game more attractive to buy from previous owners of the game who would like the more flashy plastic three dimensional tiles.

Personally, I would be just as happy with card tiles, but I really doubt GW are going to go that route.

[edit]
In fact, I would be willing to expect that the only printed item to be found in the new spacehulk would be the rules. Considering how they made their own tokens for 40k, as well as for cities of death and WHFB (COD and WHFB using round styrene plugs that were printed by the sheet, but I am not sure if they did those themselves or were outsourced, possibly outsourced due to the limited availability of those items) that blips and other chits would be molded styrene like the rest of the game. Just a guess though. But I do find it likely as it seems GW is creating a pattern of doing as much in house as they possibly can.

Hellfury wrote:Personally, I would be just as happy with card tiles, but I really doubt GW are going to go that route.

I doubt it also, they will most likely up the price and go with plastic. I disagree with you though, there are many printing methods which require only initial set up and then ink and material costs which are lower than plastic. Steve Jackson Games is nowhere near as big an operation as GW, I can't imagine they would offer them a cheap price with the kind of order they would be making.

Your also neglecting the time it takes to produce plastic items which adds to the price also, as well as higher staff costs. Even on a small business scale the print industry doesn't suffer from these problems.

The real reason they won't be using card is because most people regard it as tacky and cheap (in an aesthetic sense).

...and sry so many edits.

I'd like to see some nice modern terminators on 40mm bases. If ogres can take up a single square in Blood Bowl, termis can take up one square in Space Hulk!

So - my view - the traditional offering - card tiles, current plastic minis, rules and paraphernalia...

whatwhat wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Personally, I would be just as happy with card tiles, but I really doubt GW are going to go that route.

I doubt it also, they will most likely up the price and go with plastic. I disagree with you though, there are many printing methods which require only initial set up and then ink and material costs which are lower than plastic. Steve Jackson Games is nowhere near as big an operation as GW, I can't imagine they would offer them a cheap price with the kind of order they would be making.

Your also neglecting the time it takes to produce plastic items which adds to the price also, as well as higher staff costs. Even on a small business scale the print industry doesn't suffer from these problems.

The real reason they won't be using card is because most people regard it as tacky and cheap.

Keep in mind that I am not trying to argue, but I seriously find it unlikely that it would be cheaper to produce plastic tiles than it would be to outsorce to printers.

Printers also have to make a die to stamp-cut all of those tiles as well. If I recall correctly (its been 15+ years since I worked in printing) that those specialty, made to order dies are not only quite expensive to both design and fabricate, but require constant maintenance as they frequently are dulled and bent.

Its little things like that that make me beleive that when viewed from the bigger financial picture, it would be more feasible to produce such things in house and keep the profit and make them less dependent on an outside source to manufacture their games. [edit] but then again, its only my guess based on very basic business knowledge of fabrication costs. They very well may be able to outsource and find an extremely cheap way to print the tiles and 'rape' the consumer with a high price tag

(I agree about SJG by the way, while he does own his own company, I agree that his printing costs would be far greater than a larger company looking to move 100K units worth of product who also make considerably more money and can take the risk.)

Hellfury wrote:

Keep in mind that I am not trying to argue, but I seriously find it unlikely that it would be cheaper to produce plastic tiles than it would be to outsorce to printers.

Printers also have to make a die to stamp-cut all of those tiles as well. If I recall correctly (its been 15+ years since I worked in printing) that those specialty, made to order dies are not only quite expensive to both design and fabricate, but require constant maintenance as they frequently are dulled and bent.

Its little things like that that make me beleive that when viewed from the bigger financial picture, it would be more feasible to produce such things in house and keep the profit and make them less dependent on an outside source to manufacture their games.

(I agree about SJG by the way, while he does own his own company, I agree that his printing costs would be far greater than a larger company looking to move 100K units worth of product who also make considerably more money and can take the risk.)

Actually off set printing is actually much more efficient than that nowadays. Think about the process of making plastic, not only do you have highly untamed materials which mean more maintenence you also have added staff costs when it comes to post processing every single item. It's not as easy as just pressing a button and making sure the process is in check, which a print supplier of the like which could deal with a GW sized order, could manage.

Also the in-house vs outsourcing issue isn't really an issue at all. Most of the time outsourcing makes things cheaper, hence the reason most companies, even major corporations, still rely on outsourcing to run business.

As I said, the real reason we won't see card tiles (I don't think we have since the old Necromunda buildings? May be wrong.) are because they are outdated and are viewed as cheap by most people.

Last cards we got were Mordheim I believe. Pity, they were nice buildings too.

BYE

I would prefer a change back to the 1st edition shot mechanic, so I had Terminators that could hit the broad side of a barn if they kept shooting.

For tiles, I'm good either way. I don't think plastic would be three dimensional, there wouldn't be any wall or anything, just doors like the old versions. Plastic would probably make the game more expensive, as well.

Also, if they go cardboard, you can use old sets to make bigger hulks.

It must contain minis. As a stand alone game, you can't play it if you don't have figs. Well, you can, but that isn't the GW style.

Alternate rules for Daemon Hulks and Ork Hulks would be cool, for those that have those models. I would love to charge onto a Daemon Hulk with my Grey Knights.

Honestly?

I'd love to see it as not just Terminators/Marines vs Genestealers.

I'd also love to see respirator kits in plastic for Cadians.

...Come to think of it...
This could be a fantastic tie-in with Planetstrike/Plastic Stormtroopers

Chances are PlanetStrike will have rules for such a thing, but Space Hulk is Genestealers vs Terminators. That's what it should be, that's what made it such a huge success.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Chances are PlanetStrike will have rules for such a thing, but Space Hulk is Genestealers vs Terminators. That's what it should be, that's what made it such a huge success.

I wonder if that formula still applies, though, or have the expectations of the player base and potential new adopters changed over the years.

Do you have any reason to suspect it wouldn't?

BYE

Well, about 15 years have passed, for one thing. Nothing at GW is the same as it was when Hulk was big the last time, and the business of miniatures wargaming is very different. According to anecdotes, the demographics have changed as well, the average gamer being younger, etc.

Agamemnon2 raises a good point.

When space hulk was originally inspired by the movie Aliens in '88-89 a couple years after the movies release, the aliens movie was a pretty big hit for those viewers who enjoyed scifi.

Lots of us old farts still know of this movie, but I find a ton of kids don't know anything about that franchise past the recent AVP movies.

GW could very well be looking at a new demographic who enjoy something else GW decides to mimic. I have no clue what that might be right now, but the creation of Tau were a good indicator of riding the anime bandwagon earlier this decade as an example.

I always had a problem with the termis being just too fragile in the game. I'd prefer that instead of termis it be Navy Storm Troopers or SM scouts.

Definitely want plastic tiles and rooms. they shouldn't be harder than the textured bases that came with some of the skull pass models.

Hellfury wrote:Agamemnon2 raises a good point.

When space hulk was originally inspired by the movie Aliens in '88-89 a couple years after the movies release, the aliens movie was a pretty big hit for those viewers who enjoyed scifi.

Lots of us old farts still know of this movie, but I find a ton of kids don't know anything about that franchise past the recent AVP movies.

GW could very well be looking at a new demographic who enjoy something else GW decides to mimic. I have no clue what that might be right now, but the creation of Tau were a good indicator of riding the anime bandwagon earlier this decade as an example.

LOL

Perhaps for the kids of today it will be inspired by Grand Theft Auto?

You get to be a space marine driving a car down a coridor knocking over genestealers with handbags?

;-)

I still want it to be Terminators vs Genestealers just so I can say once again:

"Game over man, game over..."




It's an iconic game so I can't picture any other races (other than perhaps SM vs Orks? Orks also travel on space hulks...)

I figure it'll have to be Terminators & Genestealers, or it just ain't Space Hulk. I also assume that either WD or a supplement down the line will have a way of introducing other races into the game.

It'd better have the timer.

The original game was £20. Assuming 20 years of inflation at average 3% per year, that's £36 in modern money.

They could put it out at £40, or at £50 and put in more expensive components and still make a good profit. People wouldn't think £50 expensive if they saw value for money in the box.

Lots of production -- plastic or card printing -- has got relatively cheaper since the late 80s.

My prediction is that the box will be Marines in Tactical Dreadnaught Armor (which I think sounds cooler than Terminators) vs. Genestealers. My second prediction is that GW (or fan sites) will 'publish' pdf rules for using other models in the game - both for the protagonist and villians.

tallmantim wrote:Perhaps for the kids of today it will be inspired by Grand Theft Auto?

No, it'll be closer to Halo.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

tallmantim wrote:Perhaps for the kids of today it will be inspired by Grand Theft Auto?

No, it'll be closer to Halo.

BYE

LOL

Could they integrate Guitar Hero?

I hear that's pretty popular too!

What would people say if they moved it to 20mm or 15mm to make for larger layouts, more models and to keep us from getting cheap(er) termis?

I'd say something that Dakka would filter out...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:What would people say if they moved it to 20mm or 15mm to make for larger layouts, more models and to keep us from getting cheap(er) termis?

as long as the rules are better than what we have now, I wouldn't mind. Simply because I would take those rules and use them for bigger layouts.

a square space is a square space, so scalability wouldn't be affected.

besides, travel space hulk has been around for awhile. The only real problem is finding those epic genestealers.

Anyone know if GW IS doing Space Hulk or did they maybe hand it to Fantasy Flight Games like they did with talisman.

I would rather see FFG get a hold of it as they did a really good job with talisman.

That would mean card tiles but it would also mean third party terminators and stealers in a smaller scale and a cheaper plastic.
But it would also mean expansions, and web suport.

FFG done wonders for my Thursday night board game night and my local gaming club. I would love to see them do spacehulk and warhammer quest. Though I doubt warhammer quest would be done since they already have a similar product