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Here is the story:

I'm involved in a weekly 40k game at my FLGS, now this is good fun and all but also competitive because of the prizes given each week and at the end of the 8 week Campaign. So my game finished early and I started to watch another game. One of the players was Tau and the other was playing chaos. After a turn or two I noticed the chaos player wasn't taking wounds when his combi plasma's rolled a 1, using his FNP rolls even when hit by a rail gun single shot, and not allocating wounds before he rolled the dice. The Tau player was pretty new and also didn't reroll misses on his twin linked rail guns, or his drones.

So then I started asking questions after a dice roll...

"Arn't rail guns on the broadsides twin linked?" "To get the Tau player to reroll the misses"

"Don't you have an aspiring Champ in that group of marines?" To get the Chaos marine player to start allocating.

"I didn't know that that unit was fearless" When the choas player should have made a moral check.

All questions I knew the answer to.

Of course this started to turn the tide of battle greatly in the Tau player's favor.

Finally I asked :

"I didn't know Feel No Pain can be used on AP1 wounds" when the Chaos player tried to use FNP again on a railgun wound.

At this point he turned to me and said "I didn't bother you in your game, get the hell out of mine!"

I realized I had gone too far. I left sortly after. By calling the chaos player out on the rules was I becoming TFG?

Had the chaos been playing against someone really versed in the rules to call him out I doubt he would have done everything he did, but the other guy had only played 5 or 6 40k games ever. So here is my question when you notice one person really ignoring the rules, bording on what I'd consider cheating, do you say something? If so, how?

Thanks!

How new was the Chaos player?

This is a huge gray area. I think if it's a competitive game, where there's some sort of money on the table, then butting out of other people's games is good practice.

Clearly, having a guy act the way he did and you calling him on it is different from offering tactical advice.

I think if the chaos player's actions were egregious, you should have called a judge or ref and told him about it.

Allowing a player to take advantage of a noob is reason to pipe up, I think. If the chaos player just didn't know better, then he should have appreciated the heads up. If it was intentional, then you were calling out a tool.

Depends on the situation. I think it comes down to - did the Chaos player make 'honest' mistakes and didn't know the rules OR was the Chaos player just trying to beat up on the newb? In other words, was he just dumb or malicious or dumb & malicious?

I think you had to do/say something. I might have been a little more blunt about it than you were. You also might have just asked the league organizer (if there was one), store employee, etc. to 'help' with the new player.

I hate to see the new guy get hosed, just because it chases them away from the hobby. But, I also hate excessive kabitzing.

You were in a 'lose-lose' situation, so you picked to 'lose less'.

If there's a league manager, I'd report the Chaos player and suggest that someone 'watch' his games and 'help' him learn the rules. That might just chase the Chaos player out of the league, and that might be the best result.

no sir, you are a saint
alot of newer players have this happen to them and dont know any different, for an older gamer to help them out, tis a very decent thing to do

i believe he is in the wrong here, you were simply helping out since neither of them were aware of certain rules

If the guy was cheating, you are not TFG.

If the guy was useless, he should not object.

Were you pointing out things in both directions, if anything happened? Or was it all in the Chaos player's favour anyway until you pointed it out?

I quite like sticking my beak into the trials of the younger gamers, as you do find horrendous cheating attempts going on.

One kid had his opponent on the ropes with his Wood Elves. He claimed that an FAQ had given *All* Elves Speed of Asuryan, and his opponents Skellies were falling like Wheat before the Scythe, and his Gladerider Champion was about to bump off Konrad. And thats when I stepped in. Suffice to say the Wood Elf player was staring daggers at me, to which I replied 'well don't go making stuff up'

All about education.

Did either of them ask you a question before or after you first piped up? If yes then you're ok.

Is the Chaos player known for that sort of thing? If yes then you're ok.

Else you are TFG.

I agree with the previous posts, in how those certain situations should be handled. That said from his response to your "meddling" seems to clearly indicate the guy was exploiting a newer player.

I would say your free and clear of TFG status.

I pointed out stuff in both directions, like the Tau player moving a devilfish 12 inches not being able to fire more then one weapon.

The Chaos player had been playing since 3rd edition, so either he never read 5th edition rules or was cheating.

This league does have a Captain but he was out getting dinner and the store manager was not there either.

I'll talk with the Captain about it.

Oh and yes the Tau player did ask me questions regarding cover saves, ranges, and equipment. And before I asked my final question the chaos player asked me to confirm a measurement on an assault.

I dont think your TFG. You kept the game fair and square.

Cheating is cheating. Period. I don't think you were out of bounds at all. I've had people do that in my games (both for and against me) and I don't mind a bit. If people are getting bent out of shape for such things then they really need to reexamine why they are in this hobby.

Not tfg. You were doing the right thing. You might have otherwise been annoying (in fact your pissing me off right now! ), but helping people with rules isn't wrong. Unless the Tau wanted to be fethed, though I doubt it

asugradinwa wrote:I pointed out stuff in both directions, like the Tau player moving a devilfish 12 inches not being able to fire more then one weapon.

The Chaos player had been playing since 3rd edition, so either he never read 5th edition rules or was cheating.

This league does have a Captain but he was out getting dinner and the store manager was not there either.

I'll talk with the Captain about it.

Oh and yes the Tau player did ask me questions regarding cover saves, ranges, and equipment. And before I asked my final question the chaos player asked me to confirm a measurement on an assault.

Well there you go. Sounds like you're covered. Mayhaps you became overexuberent a bit though, but if one player is consistently asking you rules and not tactics questions then no, you're in the clear.

Cheating is cheating. Period. I don't think you were out of bounds at all. I've had people do that in my games (both for and against me) and I don't mind a bit. If people are getting bent out of shape for such things then they really need to reexamine why they are in this hobby.

Respectfully, if they were equal in knowledge and he started butting in, it would have been a problem. But it appears neither prong of my test were met. 1. There was an experience differential; 2. he was being asked questions-invited to enter into the game as it were.

If the mistakes on both sides were being picked up, if you were doing it in a 'helpful suggestion' way and not smirking or tutting, don't really see where the problem is.

Depends on a host of things, age of players, experience of players, how well you couched your suggestions.

And that you were impartial...

It's been my experience that people usually blow up when you call them on their cheating.....

I think that if there isn't an official around (judge, umpire, ref, etc) then the game loses some of it's aura of importance, making it less of a breach of protocol to interfere.

I don't think you were out of line as long as it involved clear cut rules i.e. you can move 12" and shoot nothing, units not Fearless take Morale checks, Twin-linked rerolles missed hits, etc.

You're not helping a player with tactical decisions like "I'd move that unit here..." or "You should not shoot before assaulting to ensure you are in charge range". That might make you TFG, but just ensuring BOTH players are playing by the rules does not.

I'm always amazed how people start throwing around the word cheating. Not knowing a rule doesn't equal cheating.

Really good question there.

It's probably easiest to answer yourself by putting yourself in their shoes. My guess from the description you gave us.

(enter tau's players shoes) "Thank god this guy stepped in, I felt like something fishy was going on but I'm not really comfortable enough with the rules to call this guy on it."

(enter chaos players shoes) "I had this noob wrapped around my finger and this guy starts butting in. This is a competitive game why is he playing 'judge'?"

I can't really accurately judge your demeanor based on your post. A lot of my TFGs are TFGs based on all facets of the social skill spectrum. You sounded like you had some tact as you approached the questions from a "I'm not aware of anything, just asking questions." direction, which may be seen as genuine, but also could have been seen as quite insincere or patronizing, depending on delivery.

My gut says, you did the right thing. When in doubt help the new guy...

It's like Shepherd Book used to say... if you can't do something smart, do something right.

Frazzled wrote:I'm always amazed how people start throwing around the word cheating. Not knowing a rule doesn't equal cheating.

Knowing it and "forgetting" it is though.

I have a good friend who occasionally (and by accident) is playing under Rogue Trader, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, or another game's ruleset. It happens when you play wargames for 20 years and through multiple editions of different games. Without knowing intent, I wouldn't say that the Chaos player was cheating. To me, cheating has to include intent, otherwise it's just making a mistake.

Agreed. My brain will still pop up something about 2nd edition. It doesn't help if you don't actually play 5th edition much.

I think it's a "should have known" standard. Rolling two dice for two overheats instead of one is forgetting a small rule change between editions. Not rolling at all could be a mistake as well (we all forget things), but there comes a point where a player is expected to know things.

You can also tell when a player always remembers rules that help him, but always forget those that hurt him.

What's wrong with playing the game right?

sA

Whats wrong with New Coke vs. Old Coke?

Sorry, thats about as relevant.

There is nothing wrong with reminding others of the rules; especially if they are blatant. You are not a TFG. Giving Tactical type advice during a competitive game is one thing, but pointing out rules violations or rules mistakes is another.

They should have both thanked you for your help with the clarifications you gave. Since the Chaos player acted like such an a$$, you can bet he was probably doing some of it on purpose to beat up the new guy.

good on you, I would defiantly follow this one up on the league organizer.

Frazzled wrote:I'm always amazed how people start throwing around the word cheating. Not knowing a rule doesn't equal cheating.

I can see where you're coming from here. I personally hold people to a higher standard, so if you don't know a rule here or there, that's fine, but this Chaos player was making repeated mistakes and it sounds like they were pretty much all in his favor. Either way, because he got pissed off about it, he really sounds like he was in the wrong.

TFG: always depends on perspective, I think. Some people don't have a problem with certain TFG behaviors. Some people do. TFG is, some times, in the eye of the beholder.

I think that you had to do something. A tourney game is not the place to go butting intosomeone elses game, however I find it very difficult to fault you at all in this case. I think you are free of TFG status, except that Mr. Ooopsie Rules prob. considers you TFG. If he did indeed curse then it's prob. a safe bet that he knew or suspected what he was doing.

At the very LEAST, I think you should have taken the wood elf player aside afterward and pointed out some things to him in the rule book and the Chaos codex. Prehaps his own as well. The kid NEEDS to have someone show him what's going on, or he's just going to get confused.

Yeah, sometimes people do get turned away from the game because of things like this. However, the most satisfying game of 40k I have had in 15 years of playing was beating a guy who "taught" me the game by cheating (as I found out later) so he could drill me. Best. Dice. Ever.

Sounds like a clear case of a cheaing.

You did good, hell.. even if it was a noob game they should be happy you told them alot of how the game worked but since it was in the running for fine prizes.

It actually sounded alot more like the chaos player was TFG, ticking noobs is definenty a trademark there.